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AOU-NACC Proposals 2019

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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 10:36   #176
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Yes, I know all that already and actually agree with some of it.

You don't engage with what I'm saying - instead you just respond generically, like you're having some phantom argument with Jeremy Corbyn.
Isn't that what we have though?

You espouse a set of ideas and values to which I'm diametrically opposed on SOME, levels. I'm all for social justice but some things matter more than others, bird names are very low down the list and the reasons for changing them, in many cases, are weak.

I've seen third World poverty, up close and personal so I find the kind of discussions we're having here, to be superfluous, tokenistic and self indulgent. If you asked me to sign a petition to go and airlift all the kids from the Yemen, I'd sign it in a hearbeat, this is the stuff that matters.

What I don't like, is indulgent, middle class liberals, who tell me why I should accept wholesale, unchecked, immigration, when, in the majority of cases, they are living well away from the problematic side of this policy. Their policies are idealistic, simplistic and unrealistic.

I know that little ramble wasn't on topic but it's basically the same thing happening in birding. If people want social justice, changing bird names is not the place to start. The BLM campaign is in great danger of losing a lot of the public sympathy it first garnered, with it's increasing demands, the vandalism that saw statues torn down and some of the unsavoury comments which have recently been attributed to some high profile members. BLM lapel badges were glaringly absent from the presenters suits during coverage of various football matches over the last few days, for the same reasons.

Politics in the UK has become so polarised, some issues are spilling over in to areas where they shouldn't be seen and the country is crying out for someone to claim the centre ground.

I'll finally summarise my position on nomenclature....

1. By all means, change eponyms which refer to genuinely, unsavoury characters, not because someones uncle made a racist statement a hundred years ago.

2. Use foreign names where justifiable but translate in to English, names should mean something, they should impart some idea of the species habits or appearance. I'm ok with 'Bird that steals my chickens at night' but not in Aramaic!

3. I don't mind the changing of names which are clearly, potentially offensive. If the leader of a group of people makes an approach then do it, as is currently case with the Washington Redskins, American football team but it should not be for a person, unnafected themselves, to take umbrage on somene elses behalf. There's a principle in law known as 'locus standi' which means that people cannot get involved in an action, which does not, directly affect them in person and it should be applied here.
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 11:30   #177
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Isn't that what we have though?

You espouse a set of ideas and values to which I'm diametrically opposed on SOME, levels. I'm all for social justice but some things matter more than others, bird names are very low down the list and the reasons for changing them, in many cases, are weak.

I've seen third World poverty, up close and personal so I find the kind of discussions we're having here, to be superfluous, tokenistic and self indulgent. If you asked me to sign a petition to go and airlift all the kids from the Yemen, I'd sign it in a hearbeat, this is the stuff that matters.

What I don't like, is indulgent, middle class liberals, who tell me why I should accept wholesale, unchecked, immigration, when, in the majority of cases, they are living well away from the problematic side of this policy. Their policies are idealistic, simplistic and unrealistic.

I know that little ramble wasn't on topic but it's basically the same thing happening in birding. If people want social justice, changing bird names is not the place to start. The BLM campaign is in great danger of losing a lot of the public sympathy it first garnered, with it's increasing demands, the vandalism that saw statues torn down and some of the unsavoury comments which have recently been attributed to some high profile members. BLM lappel badges were glaringly absent from the presenters suits during coverage of various football matches over the last few days, for the same reasons.

Politics in the UK has become so polarised, some issues are spilling over in to areas where they shouldn't be seen and the country is crying out for someone to claim the centre ground.

I'll finally summarise my position on nomenclature....

1. By all means, change eponyms which refer to genuinely, unsavoury characters, not because someones uncle made a racist statement a hundred years ago.

2. Use foreign names where justifiable but translate in to English, names should mean something, they should impart some idea of the species habits or appearance. I'm ok with 'Bird that steals my chickens at night' but not in Aramaic!

3. I don't mind the changing of names which are clearly, potentially offensive. If the leader of a group of people makes an approach then do it, as is currently case with the Washington Redskins but it should not be for a person in the UK or US to take umbrage on somene elses behalf. There's a principle in law known as 'locus standi' which means that people cannot get involved in an action, which does not, directly affect them in person and it should be applied here.
1. Thanks for writing an erudite and (mostly) polite post.

2. I don't think that changing bird names is the place to start either but it is certainly the only part of the discussion relevant to the present forum!

3. Understand that not everyone who opposes some of your ideas can be characterised as "middle class", "liberal", "you and your kind" or "loony" - and that there is no reason to be pejorative anyway. None of those words describe who I am at all - and I don't think you'd like to be characterised in an equivalent manner.
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 15:08   #178
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You know, it would be nice to actually see some names applied to these and the actual links. Some of these look very much like broad stroke categorizations, especially "guy who knew Custer" and "Guy related to folks who used small pox".
That's fair, but we are trying to be thorough here, there are literally hundreds of these people and many of them require trawling through obscure texts to get an idea of what they were doing behind the white-washed version that tends to be presented.

We are looking at how we might release the whole lot when we are finished, but a few select lowlights:

James Sligo Jameson (eponyms include Jameson's Wattle-eye, Antpecker, Firefinch)
Deeply involved with Stanley in Central Africa, helped from up colonialism particularly in Leopold II's Congo Free State - a regime responsible for around 13 million deaths.

John Kirk Townsend (eponyms include Solitaire and Warbler)
Robbed indigious graves to he could send the skulls back to phrenologist Samuel G Morton, who wanted to develop scientific backing for white supremacy and manifest destiny.

Sir Geoffrey Francis Archer (eponyms including Buzzard, Lark, Ground Robin)
Pioneered using aircraft bombing to shoot rebels in Somliland. Suppresed local academics. Later got involved in the salt industry in India, which notedly lead to the Salt March later.

John James Audobon
Slave owner. Grave robber. Was also sending skulls of Indiginous people and Mexican soldiers to the same Samuel G Morton above.

William Clark (of Clark's Nutcracher)
Massive colonialist. "Ultimately responsible for dispossessing more Indians than perhaps any other American". Also a slaver and plantation owner.

2nd Conde de Fernandina (long unweildy name) (of Fernandina Flicker)
"One of the largest slave owners on the island" (Cuba)

Paul Neergard (of Neergard's Sunbird)
Member of a "migrant labour agency" which was essentially state sponsored human trafficking where Africans would be sent into gold mines with high mortality rates and impossible to escape contracts.

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With such an extensive and far-reaching list of early 21st century views, are you sure you have looked hard enough at these cool people? What were their views on trans-gender people? Did they eat meat? What was their record on animal rights activism?
I may note have. There are about 540 on the list so far, and that will probably rise - I don't have the time to read the complete biographies and works of every single one of them.

But you are being facetious anyway.

Would a lot of them be cool if you transposed them to modern times? Probably not. Did some of them push for positive progress in the world they lived in and not murder anyone, or colonialise anywhere or enslave anyone. Certainly. It's not an unreasonable bar.
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 15:59   #179
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John James Audobon
Slave owner. Grave robber. Was also sending skulls of Indiginous people and Mexican soldiers to the same Samuel G Morton above.

I may note have. There are about 540 on the list so far, and that will probably rise - I don't have the time to read the complete biographies and works of every single one of them.

But you are being facetious anyway.

Would a lot of them be cool if you transposed them to modern times? Probably not. Did some of them push for positive progress in the world they lived in and not murder anyone, or colonialise anywhere or enslave anyone. Certainly. It's not an unreasonable bar.
So thats the Audubon Society gone then...........

Regarding your last comment, you can switch this and try to understand that this was all done in the context of society as it was then which is basically what you're doing with your statement, in reverse.

I'm not defending any of them but humankind has moved on a lot in two-three hundred years and much of what happened then, wasn't seen as particulary awful.

A lot of the people being villified here, are actually remembered for humanitarion and philanthropic endeavours too. Edward Colston who just had his statue torn down in Bristol, UK, bequeathed large amounts of money to local charities upon his death, hence his statue. This latest movement will ignore that and see him remembered solely, as a slave trader, along with many others. In my view, each individual has to receive a balanced appraisal, some people were victims at their hands, others, beneficiaries.

I assume that you are aware that slavery was in use by Africans, a long time before Europeans arrived?

You cannot just remove parts of history, periodically, to suit the political flavour of the day.
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 16:29   #180
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So thats the Audubon Society gone then...........

Regarding your last comment, you can switch this and try to understand that this was all done in the context of society as it was then which is basically what you're doing with your statement, in reverse.

I'm not defending any of them but humankind has moved on a lot in two-three hundred years and much of what happened then, wasn't seen as particulary awful.

A lot of the people being villified here, are actually remembered for humanitarion and philanthropic endeavours too. Edward Colston who just had his statue torn down in Bristol, UK, bequeathed large amounts of money to local charities upon his death, hence his statue. This latest movement will ignore that and see him remembered solely, as a slave trader, along with many others. In my view, each individual has to receive a balanced appraisal, some people were victims at their hands, others, beneficiaries.

You cannot just remove parts of history, periodically, to suit the political flavour of the day.
There's a difference between someone being in history and them being honoured. No one I know is reasoning that we try erase people from history, but a statue or an eponym is a an honouring.

To take an example of one I consider "cool" - Eleonara of Arborea after whom Eleonara's Falcon is named was a woman who became a judge and among her achievements enacted the world's first legal protections for raptors nests and made some big progressive strides towards fairer laws for women regarding inheritance and rape cases. Added bonus, the name isn't colonial because it's a personage relevant to the species' range.

Might she have been terrible in other ways? Quite possibly, but the difference is a question mark vs ignoring evidence we have.

As for the "it was a different time" argument, the yardstick is very simple - did they cause or endorse notable suffering? Suffering is a constant that an act can be measured against regardless of time.
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 16:56   #181
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Was the post in English? If yes, he's hoisted himself on his own petard [alert! French word!!!]
The word pétard transferred to English some time ago, its use referring to a small bomb to blow in locked doors
, appearing in Hamlet (but only in the second Quarto in 1604), and so Will probably was aware of it for some time beforehand. The word's ancestry lies in Latin, from pedere (to break wind), but it was much more commonly appreciated in the slang form 'to fart' and so it may have been used as an intentional jokey pun:

"They bear the mandate; they must sweep my way
And marshal me to knavery. Let it work,
For ’tis the sport to have the enginer
Hoist with his own petard; and ’t shall go hard
But I will delve one yard below their mines
And blow them at the moon."

(An 'enginer' was a sapper)

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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 07:57   #182
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The proposal to change the name of Olive Warbler to 'Ocotero', has been rejected.

https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=391636
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 08:57   #183
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What's meaning Ocotero in English, to translate it?
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 09:23   #184
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What's meaning Ocotero in English, to translate it?
It's not an English-language word so, if it had been adopted, it would have simply meant Peucedramus. I think it's a Mexican name for the species.
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 09:29   #185
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What's meaning Ocotero in English, to translate it?
Literally, 'Piner', "the one of the pine trees". From the Nahuatl word Ocote (pine Pinus spp.) + the Spanish word ending -ero.


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Orite à longue queue, Plectrophane des neiges, Percnoptère d'Égypte.. it's time for French ornithology to evolve
As an aside, curious to ask, does that tagline mean you are in favour of these names, or against them?

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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 09:46   #186
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Literally, 'Piner', "the one of the pine trees". From the Nahuatl word Ocote (pine Pinus spp.) + the Spanish word ending -ero.
So, named it Olive Piner


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As an aside, curious to ask, does that tagline mean you are in favour of these names, or against them?
Favour. It's their official name but French ornithology is forty years behind. Fortunately, these names are mainly used on ornithological Facebook groups.

Percnoptère d'Égypte was named Vautour percnoptère/ "percnoptère vulture", Orite à longue queue was Mésange à longue queue / Long tail tit and Plectrophane des neiges was Bruant des neiges /snow bunting.

Names evolves to reflect phylogeny and real relationships. From now on, Orite, Plectrophane and Percnoptère d'Égypte are their names and we have to accept it without complaining, without being a "weeper"

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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 10:48   #187
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So, named it Olive Piner
Except it isn't olive-coloured; that, as well as its not being a warbler, was one of the problems with the name! Grey with white wingbars, and an orange (male) or yellow (female) head.

Personally, I think Ocotero is a very nice name; 'piner' actually means something different in English too (something that pines away, wastes away); and English doesn't really have an equivalent to the Spanish '-ero' (except for '-er', as in e.g. baker being one who bakes bread).

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Names evolves to reflect phylogeny and real relationships.
That's one thing where French attitudes are much better than those of most English speakers!

What's the etymology ot 'Orite'?
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 10:53   #188
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What's the etymology ot 'Orite'?
Orite is the "francized" name of genus Orites, from Greek meaning "mountain dweller". Orites is, of course, a synonym of Aegithalos.
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 10:56   #189
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It's not an English-language word so, if it had been adopted, it would have simply meant Peucedramus. I think it's a Mexican name for the species.
I for one support this decision and I hope it sets a trend for the future.
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 11:19   #190
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Orite is the "francized" name of genus Orites, from Greek meaning "mountain dweller". Orites is, of course, a synonym of Aegithalos.
From the Greek masculine noun ὀρειώτης, a mountaineer. (Yet, orite is, oddly, used as feminine nowadays -- as if 'mésange' was still around, thus. Usage has varied historically, though -- e.g.: https://books.google.com/books?id=28...J&q="un+orite".)
It's an awful word in French, in my opinion -- hard and dry, and sounding more like the name of a disease than that of a bird. A real pity for the soft feather balls that Aegithalidae are.
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 11:28   #191
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What do you prefer, Mecisture, Tupinet...? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Orite is no uglier than Oxylabe, Camaroptère or Urotangara.
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 11:29   #192
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Égithale.
(If we are to use orite, let's at least make it masculine, as it ought to be.)

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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 11:35   #193
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Égithale.
It's a name that I had already suggested but which has never existed in literature to my knowledge, contrary to Orite which was used from the middle of the 19th century

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(If we are to use orite, let's at least make it masculine, as it ought to be.)
It's true that I don't know its gender


Perso, there are a few families who deserve a French name change (Oceanitidae, Arremonidae, Semnornithidae, Calyptomenidae etc)

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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 15:34   #194
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.... A real pity for the soft feather balls that Aegithalidae are.
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What do you prefer, Mecisture, Tupinet...? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Orite is no uglier than Oxylabe, Camaroptère or Urotangara.
Balle-pelucheuse à longue queue?
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 15:56   #195
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Long tail badminton birdie
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 15:58   #196
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Égithale.
It's a name that I had already suggested but which has never existed in literature to my knowledge, ...
...
Dubois: Égithale pendulin Ægithalus pendulinus ... (here)
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 16:03   #197
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Dubois: Égithale pendulin Ægithalus pendulinus ... (here)
Indeed, but, this name is applied to the Rémiz (genus Remiz). Aegithalos and Aegithalus are, in fact, two distinct genera with their own type species : europaeus for the first (now Aegithalos caudatus europaeus) and pendulinus for the second (now Remiz pendulinus, the Rémiz penduline)

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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 16:16   #198
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Indeed, but, this name is applied to the Rémiz (genus Remiz). Aegithalos and Aegithalus are, in fact, two distinct genera with their own type species (europaeus for the first, and pendulinus for the second)
'Ægithale' (this spelling) has been used quite a few times in the 20th C for long-tailed tits:
https://books.google.com/books?id=rQ...AJ&q=aegithale
https://books.google.com/books?id=at...wC&q=aegithale
https://books.google.com/books?id=zl...gC&q=aegithale
https://books.google.com/books?id=7q...AJ&q=aegithale
https://books.google.com/books?id=Vi...AJ&q=aegithale
https://books.google.com/books?id=wj...AJ&q=aegithale
https://books.google.com/books?id=t4...AJ&q=aegithale
https://books.google.com/books?id=-n...AJ&q=aegithale
It is even in the Larousse dictionary: https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaire...aegithale#1249 (while orite is not).

(19th C uses of the term apparently all apply to penduline tits -- which is not really surprising as Aegithalos Hermann for long-tailed tits was not in use back then: this name was exhumed by Stejneger in 1886 https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/7601226, and its generalized use in this sense dates from the early 1900s only. For a good part of the 19th C, Aegithalus Boie 1822 (alt. Vigors 1825) was used for penduline tits.
Meanwhile, 'Orite de neige' has also been used as a French name for Snow Finch https://books.google.com/books?id=7dLRAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA71, and Orites was proposed as a generic name in this last sense before it was made available for long-tailed tits (Keyserling & Blasius 1840, vs. Gray [ex Moehring] 1841).)

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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 16:29   #199
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Well, ok.... That said, why did we choose Orite rather than Aegithale? it's only mystery and I like it

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Old Tuesday 7th July 2020, 15:07   #200
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By the way, the word penduline is yet another word which exists in English exclusively in a name of a bird: Penduline Tit.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/penduline
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/di...lish/penduline

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AOU-NACC Proposals 2015 Richard Klim Bird Taxonomy and Nomenclature 78 Tuesday 25th October 2016 06:59
AOU-NACC proposals 2013 Richard Klim Bird Taxonomy and Nomenclature 147 Friday 28th February 2014 18:23
AOU-NACC Proposals 2011 Richard Klim Bird Taxonomy and Nomenclature 125 Wednesday 12th June 2013 16:51
AOU-NACC Proposals 2009 Richard Klim Bird Taxonomy and Nomenclature 41 Tuesday 6th April 2010 19:50

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