Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Discover the ZEISS Digital Nature Hub

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Knot not Great Knot? Western Australia

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old Tuesday 11th August 2020, 15:21   #1
Wiganlad
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Woking, UK
Posts: 410
Knot not Great Knot? Western Australia

Looking back at holiday video I found this fellow taken in February south of Perth on a different visit to a previous thread of mine. Is this Great knot or Knot? Any help greatly appreciated.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	knot1.jpg
Views:	186
Size:	387.9 KB
ID:	734198  Click image for larger version

Name:	knot2.jpg
Views:	163
Size:	357.7 KB
ID:	734199  
Wiganlad is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 11th August 2020, 16:35   #2
THE_FERN
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: London
Posts: 1,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiganlad View Post
Looking back at holiday video I found this fellow taken in February south of Perth on a different visit to a previous thread of mine. Is this Great knot or Knot? Any help greatly appreciated.
I think this is Red Knot. Suggest bill's too short for Great, bird doesn't have barrel-chested appearance and there's not a clear demarcation of breast from belly. Also, although there's overlap, I think supercilium is normally more pronounced on Red Knot (as here).
THE_FERN is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 11th August 2020, 16:44   #3
Andrew Whitehouse
Professor of Listening
BF Supporter 2020
 
Andrew Whitehouse's Avatar

 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 20,957
I think the black streaking on breast and flanks rather than greyish chevrons are much better for Great Knot than Red Knot.
__________________
Andrew

Listening to Birds
Andrew Whitehouse is online now  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Tuesday 11th August 2020, 17:31   #4
THE_FERN
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: London
Posts: 1,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Whitehouse View Post
I think the black streaking on breast and flanks rather than greyish chevrons are much better for Great Knot than Red Knot.
Yes could be. I initially thought was Great Knot but couldn't find any images with a bill that short.

Actually, checking Hayman, suggests that Great Knot wing tips much longer than tail. If that is what we're seeing in photo 1 then it must be Great Knot.
THE_FERN is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 11th August 2020, 18:39   #5
MJB
Registered User
 
MJB's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Holt
Posts: 4,990
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE_FERN View Post
Yes could be. I initially thought was Great Knot but couldn't find any images with a bill that short.

Actually, checking Hayman, suggests that Great Knot wing tips much longer than tail. If that is what we're seeing in photo 1 then it must be Great Knot.
I think that this could be a bird hatched in the previous year, which possibly allows for continued bill growth in the following year. The species is now Endangered.
MJB
__________________
The fuzziness of all supposedly absolute taxonomic distinctions - Stephen Jay Gould (1977) "Ever Since Darwin: Reflections in Natural History".
Species and subspecies are but a convenient fiction - Kees van Deemter (2010), "In praise of vagueness". Biology is messy
MJB is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 12th August 2020, 00:36   #6
johnallcock
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE_FERN View Post
I think this is Red Knot. Suggest bill's too short for Great, bird doesn't have barrel-chested appearance and there's not a clear demarcation of breast from belly. Also, although there's overlap, I think supercilium is normally more pronounced on Red Knot (as here).
Agree with all of this. Also, Great Knot tends to have a different upperpart pattern, with dark shaft streaks and pale fringes to the mantle and scapulars.
Red Knot for me.
johnallcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 12th August 2020, 07:21   #7
THE_FERN
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: London
Posts: 1,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnallcock View Post
Agree with all of this. Also, Great Knot tends to have a different upperpart pattern, with dark shaft streaks and pale fringes to the mantle and scapulars.
Red Knot for me.
What do you think about wing length (my second comment)?

I looked through ebird red knot pics for one with the spots/streaks underneath. I couldn't find one with exactly this pattern but some were vaguely similar if less marked
THE_FERN is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 12th August 2020, 15:11   #8
johnallcock
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE_FERN View Post
What do you think about wing length (my second comment)?
It isn't something I've ever looked at before, so didn't want to comment earlier. Having looked at some photos this evening, I think the wing length on this bird (slightly longer than the tail) is in a range that could fit either species. I think the wing length is better judged on the second photo, which shows the bird in profile, rather than the first photo, which is affected by foreshortening and the fact that the left wing seems to cross over the tail.


Quote:
Originally Posted by THE_FERN View Post
I looked through ebird red knot pics for one with the spots/streaks underneath. I couldn't find one with exactly this pattern but some were vaguely similar if less marked
The narrow streaking on the flanks, with chevrons on the rear flanks, looks better for Red than Great to me. Great usually has fewer dark markings, which are usually larger spots or arrowheads.
Compare these two Red Knot, which I think have similar underpart patterns:
https://macaulaylibrary.org/asset/13...393.1442389807
https://macaulaylibrary.org/asset/49...393.1442389807

Look also at this photo, showing a comparison of the two species side by side. Note the difference in structure (Great with longer bill, smaller head, eye placed more centrally in head), upperpart pattern and streaking on flanks. The Red Knot here is longer-winged than the subject bird.
https://macaulaylibrary.org/asset/77...393.1442389807
johnallcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 15th August 2020, 02:54   #9
John_WA
Registered User
 
John_WA's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Perth, WA
Posts: 710
This is a Red Knot, as John mentions above, as are the birds in the two older threads from the same area (likely the same bird as it's fairly distinctive). Key features are the shorter bill and the more evenly grey upperparts as John has mentioned, also useful are the chevrons on the lower flanks. The more well-marked facial pattern with stronger and more clearly defined pale supercilium and more obvious dark line through eye is also useful, but on this bird is not as clear as often is - possibly due to wear as it looks very worn generally.

The black patterning on the chest is somewhat atypical for Red but is not unknown. Somewhat atypical of Great also usually more splotchy dark marks in that area, but can show similar streaks
__________________
Cheers,
John

News, info etc. on birding in WA - Leeuwin Current Birding
John_WA is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 15th August 2020, 03:01   #10
John_WA
Registered User
 
John_WA's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Perth, WA
Posts: 710
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE_FERN View Post
What do you think about wing length (my second comment)?
Is there any evidence that this is a particularly useful feature? A quick search through images of both species suggests the difference is marginal with much overlap, and I've not seen or heard it used previously?
__________________
Cheers,
John

News, info etc. on birding in WA - Leeuwin Current Birding
John_WA is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 15th August 2020, 04:45   #11
johnallcock
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_WA View Post
This is a Red Knot, as John mentions above, as are the birds in the two older threads from the same area (likely the same bird as it's fairly distinctive).
Not just "likely the same bird", these are actually the same photos as on one of those threads! I'm pleased you dug them out and commented, because I'd missed them previously.
johnallcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 15th August 2020, 22:02   #12
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
 
Nutcracker's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 21,086
If it's all one bird - what chance a hybrid between the two? Hybrids crop up more frequently when species are endangered and can't find a mate of their own species.
Nutcracker is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 16th August 2020, 02:37   #13
johnallcock
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,485
I don't really see any reason to suggest this is a hybrid. The features are all within normal variation for Red Knot and there is not much to suggest any Great Knot influence.
Although both species are declining fairly rapidly, I don't think there is currently much evidence for hybridisation between them.
johnallcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 16th August 2020, 10:13   #14
THE_FERN
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: London
Posts: 1,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_WA View Post
Is there any evidence that this is a particularly useful feature? A quick search through images of both species suggests the difference is marginal with much overlap, and I've not seen or heard it used previously?
See Hayman et al Shorebirds plate 73: says against "adult non-breeding": "wings and tail fall roughly level" and "wings projecting noticeably beyond tail-tip" for red and great respectively
THE_FERN is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 18th August 2020, 14:24   #15
Wiganlad
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Woking, UK
Posts: 410
Thank you all for your invaluable comments on this bird. Although pictures were taken on 2 different visits to Tern Island, Safety Bay, WA I believe it was the same bird because he was alone and in the same area each time. As much as I would have loved it to be a Great Knot (as originally identified) it seems clear now that it is a Red Knot looking lost!
Wiganlad is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 18th August 2020, 14:32   #16
Wiganlad
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Woking, UK
Posts: 410
Just had a thought! There seem to be 3 possible sub-species of Red Knot that winter in Australasia....can anyone help me with that for my bird? I would be very grateful for any help on this.
Wiganlad is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 18th August 2020, 15:02   #17
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
 
Nutcracker's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 21,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE_FERN View Post
See Hayman et al Shorebirds plate 73: says against "adult non-breeding": "wings and tail fall roughly level" and "wings projecting noticeably beyond tail-tip" for red and great respectively
And wing tips projectling slightly beyond tail-tip on this bird . . . inconclusive!
Nutcracker is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 18th August 2020, 16:21   #18
Deb Burhinus
Registered User

 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 1,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiganlad View Post
Just had a thought! There seem to be 3 possible sub-species of Red Knot that winter in Australasia....can anyone help me with that for my bird? I would be very grateful for any help on this.
Two sub-species

Calidris canutus piersmai and Calidris canutus rogersi. The former are slightly smaller in size and turn a darker brick red cf to a more apricot colour in the latter. There are several other differences in breeding plumage ( but once birds become worn/moult, the differences become negligible).

In Western Australia during the non-breeding season it is more likely to be C c piersmai. (C c rogersi tend to spend the winter on the East coast.)

http://www.birdskorea.org/Habitats/Y...a-Red-Knot.pdf
__________________
___________________________
ORNITHOLOGICAL SOCIETY OF THE MIDDLE EAST
THE CAUCASUS AND CENTRAL ASIA
http://www.osme.org
Deb Burhinus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 19th August 2020, 16:23   #19
MJB
Registered User
 
MJB's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Holt
Posts: 4,990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb Burhinus View Post
Two sub-species

Calidris canutus piersmai and Calidris canutus rogersi. The former are slightly smaller in size and turn a darker brick red cf to a more apricot colour in the latter. There are several other differences in breeding plumage ( but once birds become worn/moult, the differences become negligible).

In Western Australia during the non-breeding season it is more likely to be C c piersmai. (C c rogersi tend to spend the winter on the East coast.)

http://www.birdskorea.org/Habitats/Y...a-Red-Knot.pdf
Subspecies piersmai surely was named by Pavel Tomkovich in honour of Theunis Piersma's work on Red Knot...? Given the recent 'renaming' controversy, will this also be a target...?
MJB
__________________
The fuzziness of all supposedly absolute taxonomic distinctions - Stephen Jay Gould (1977) "Ever Since Darwin: Reflections in Natural History".
Species and subspecies are but a convenient fiction - Kees van Deemter (2010), "In praise of vagueness". Biology is messy
MJB is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 19th August 2020, 18:44   #20
Deb Burhinus
Registered User

 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 1,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJB View Post
Subspecies piersmai surely was named by Pavel Tomkovich in honour of Theunis Piersma's work on Red Knot...? Given the recent 'renaming' controversy, will this also be a target...?
MJB
I hope not, it’s getting ridiculous - there’s nothing controversial about this conservationist/ornithologist is there?. (WHO just announced diseases cant be named after people. Have we started on comets yet?!)
__________________
___________________________
ORNITHOLOGICAL SOCIETY OF THE MIDDLE EAST
THE CAUCASUS AND CENTRAL ASIA
http://www.osme.org
Deb Burhinus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Knot or not? Australia Wiganlad Bird Identification Q&A 10 Saturday 15th August 2020 04:43
Another knot or not in Australia Wiganlad Bird Identification Q&A 7 Saturday 15th August 2020 04:41
Great Knot Reiner 59 Bird Identification Q&A 2 Saturday 21st February 2015 07:50
Is this a Great Knot? HokkaidoStu Bird Identification Q&A 8 Tuesday 29th August 2006 16:12
Great Knot POP Birds & Birding 21 Wednesday 18th August 2004 17:09



Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.14044309 seconds with 33 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 09:39.