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Fea's and Zino's Petrels (1 Viewer)

You might be right John. Birding is for fun but I should think that for many birders it is also important to them that their IDs are correct.

Your example is a good one although perhaps it is more critical when both species are rare? [Last time I saw a Cory's in the UK close enough to check (on a pelagic off Cornwall) , I hadn't even heard of Scopoli's!]

I remember in the past hearing reports of numbers of large shearwater sp. off the south coast, so what's wrong with [SIZE=-1]Calonectris[/SIZE] sp.?;)

Another example (from North America) is here. The number of Manx records in California are similar to the number of Fea's/Zino's in the UK.

Cheers,





The point I was making is that most Cory's seen from land are not seen well enough to exclude Scopoli's, but I can't see people putting "400 Cory's/Scopoli's past Porthgwarra" onto RBA. Or worrying about the fact that they haven't.

John
 
Sorry Glen, my fault. My brief grasp at US geography wasn't as good as I would have liked!

That's understandable - the state does have north in its name, and is in the northern part of the southeast. I am blissfully ignorant of the location of most counties in the UK.

I suspect that Fea's, and perhaps Zino's, does occur off the northeast US, but the edge of the continental shelf and the warm waters that Pterodromas favor are farther offshore (e.g., about 90 miles off Cape Cod in Massachusetts), and few pelagic trips get out that far. In North Carolina, on the other hand, the Gulf Stream is only 25-35 miles offshore from Hatteras, and Brian Patteson has run many pelagic trips to those waters over the last couple of decades, including, for at least the last couple of years, going out every day in the latter half of May, the peak season for rarities, including Fea's.

Glen
 
Hi Glen. Is late May the best time for sightings of Fea's/Zino's Petrels? The peak time in UK waters is late August/early Sept, so it's interesting comparing when birds are occuring on both sides of the Atlantic. Presumably birds are getting brought along with Sooty/Great Shearwater movements - is late May the best time for these 2 species off SE USA too?
 
It seems there are approximately 80 pairs of Zino's Petrels in Madeira and according to the Birdlife website the population of Fea's Petrel is at least 1200 pairs.

So potentially as many as 1 in 15 of these Pterodroma petrels (which are indistinguishable in the field without very good views) are Zino's.

Bonsaibirder

Your figures include the Cape Verde population of Fea's (which may yet turn out to be a third species, but that's a different story). There are only about 120-150 pairs of Fea's in Maderia (all on Bugio). Take into account that there are likely to be a few pairs of Zino's undiscovered on Madeira (there's a lot of mountain there to night survey), and the ratio around Madeira is close to 1:1.

As for Britain, the only two I've seen photos of (Scillonian & Scilly) are Fea's. Differentiating between the two species from land and without photos seems to me to be very unlikely. Around Madeira, I've identified Zino's at sea on close views & photos, but never been able to do so from land.

Fea's is a much longer-winged bird than Zino's, so I would speculate that Zino's is more sedentary and less likely to turn up off northern Europe. To speculate further, the Bugio Fea's population is so small that Cape Verde birds probably account for the UK and US records.
 
Hi jdj,

Yes, I lumped together the Cape Verde and Bugio Fea's Petrels. I was told on Madeira that the research suggesting that they should be split is nearing its end and may be submitted for publication soon.

Did you manage to get any photos of Zino's in flight?

Cheers,


Bonsaibirder

Your figures include the Cape Verde population of Fea's (which may yet turn out to be a third species, but that's a different story). There are only about 120-150 pairs of Fea's in Maderia (all on Bugio). Take into account that there are likely to be a few pairs of Zino's undiscovered on Madeira (there's a lot of mountain there to night survey), and the ratio around Madeira is close to 1:1.

As for Britain, the only two I've seen photos of (Scillonian & Scilly) are Fea's. Differentiating between the two species from land and without photos seems to me to be very unlikely. Around Madeira, I've identified Zino's at sea on close views & photos, but never been able to do so from land.

Fea's is a much longer-winged bird than Zino's, so I would speculate that Zino's is more sedentary and less likely to turn up off northern Europe. To speculate further, the Bugio Fea's population is so small that Cape Verde birds probably account for the UK and US records.
 
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Looking forward to seeing that paper when it surfaces. Do you know who is doing the research? Who were you talking to on Madeira?

I have a couple of poor images of Zino's and Fea's, but they show the ID OK. Here's one of each...
 

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Hi Glen. Is late May the best time for sightings of Fea's/Zino's Petrels? The peak time in UK waters is late August/early Sept, so it's interesting comparing when birds are occuring on both sides of the Atlantic. Presumably birds are getting brought along with Sooty/Great Shearwater movements - is late May the best time for these 2 species off SE USA too?

Yes, records of Fea's are concentrated in late May and early June. Sooty Shearwater peaks around the same time, but Great(er) Shearwater peaks June through August. Since the two shearwaters are southern hemisphere breeders moving north for the austral winter, I don't know if the movements of Fea's would be linked to their's.

Glen
 
Looking forward to seeing that paper when it surfaces. Do you know who is doing the research? Who were you talking to on Madeira?

I have a couple of poor images of Zino's and Fea's, but they show the ID OK. Here's one of each...

Could you just elaborate on what diagnostic features are visible in these two pictures, as most of the literature I have seen seems to shoot down features as soon as they are proposed - and I can't see bill notches clearly in these pix.

Incidentally I would also appreciate some elaboration from somebody of the earlier comment in the thread that "Fea's is much longer-winged than Zino's" - that being a feature that I would expect good seawatchers to detect.

John
 
Hi John,

I too am interested in how easily these species can be told apart in the field. I have heard everything from them being almost indistinguishable to it being easy!

For an example of the former - check out these photos on the excellent Madeira Seawatching website which are lovely photos but apparently not identifiable to species:
http://madeira.seawatching.net/species/Pte_fea-mad/index.html

For an example of the latter, see the link I provided in post #6.

Jdj - thanks for posting your photos!

Cheers,

Could you just elaborate on what diagnostic features are visible in these two pictures, as most of the literature I have seen seems to shoot down features as soon as they are proposed - and I can't see bill notches clearly in these pix.

Incidentally I would also appreciate some elaboration from somebody of the earlier comment in the thread that "Fea's is much longer-winged than Zino's" - that being a feature that I would expect good seawatchers to detect.

John
 
Hi Jdj,

I don't know their names just that research is being done and that is the probable conclusion based on results so far. I overheard one of the guides on the Ventura do Mar talking about this to another birder.

Your Fea's photos are better than mine!

Looking forward to seeing that paper when it surfaces. Do you know who is doing the research? Who were you talking to on Madeira?

I have a couple of poor images of Zino's and Fea's, but they show the ID OK. Here's one of each...
 
Bonsaibirder: I suspect you were speaking to Luis on the Ventura. Top bloke.

I've heard plenty of people say that Fea's & Zino's cannot be separated in the field, but never that they are easy.

Biometrics and in-hand and specimen photos show that Fea's not only has a larger bill but also is larger, heavier and proportionately longer winged than Zino's. The difficulty is converting that to field observations.

I think they can be separated sometimes given good views, careful observation, previous experience and a series of photos of the same individual.

After between 50 and 100 at sea sightings I am sure in my own mind that I have seen both species after encountering individuals at the extreme end of the spectrum. By far the majority I could identify only as Fea's/Zino's and I do not know of a sure way of telling every individual. I consider that it is comparatively more easy to be sure of a Fea's than a Zino's.

The photos I posted (each is one from a series of the same individual) show two birds that attracted particular attention in the field. The photos back up my field impression that one had small bill, a compact body and short wings i.e. Zino's. The other had a massive bill, more rangey body and very long wings i.e. Fea's.
 
Frank Zino, Manuel Biscoito and Ruth Brown published this year in BOU Journal a new paper entitiled The Separation of Pterodroma madeira (Zino's Petrel) from Pterodroma feae (Fea's Petrel).

In the paper they mentioned it is very hard to identify the birds in flight at sea, though it is possible with digital photography. They refer Birding World 14:283-289 article by Tove, M. 2001. Verification of suspected field identification differences in Fea's and Zino's Petrels.

Many times in the sea, at first glance we say Zino's/Fea's, only with a good photo we state which one later. At Madeira Birds we have some identifications at sea for Fea's Petrel and Zino's Petrel.

Citing the 2008 paper "... The few Cape Verde birds handled would suggest significant biometric differences from the Bugio population. A morphological and genetic characterization of the Cape Verde birds should be undertaken...."

Regarding theories of separation from Cape Verde and Bugio Fea's, some people discuss about this, though no work has been publish. As a resident in Madeira I would love to have another endemic. Who is researching this? We don't know...
--
Madeira Birds Blog
 
Regarding theories of separation from Cape Verde and Bugio Fea's, some people discuss about this, though no work has been publish. As a resident in Madeira I would love to have another endemic. Who is researching this? We don't know...

Hugo,

Dutch Birding 2008, 30(1), split Pterodroma deserta 'Desertas Petrel' from P. feae, citing Robb, M.S., Mullarney, K.M. & The Sound Approach 2008, Petrels Night and day: a Sound Approach Guide, Poole.

I have not yet seen the book, but presumably the separation is based upon vocalisation differences.

Richard
 
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I made a trip to Tring shortly after JDJ first showed me his photos and I had a look at some of their specimens. They had 6 Fea's and 1 Zino's. I have included a photo of (from left to right) a group of all 7 birds with the Zino's furthest left, a Zino's above a Fea's (side view), a front view of two Fea's and a front view of a Zino's. The smaller bill size of Zino's is noticable, but you would need good views at sea to be sure. I noticed that the Fea's seemed to have a bit of a collar from the shoulder towards the breast that is less evident on the Zino's. The sample size is too small to make any conclusions, but I wonder if this feature is present on other individuals that have been photographed.

Tom
 

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Bonsaibirder: I consider that it is comparatively more easy to be sure of a Fea's than a Zino's.

Sounds like the advice you get on quite a few species pairs: if you think you just might have one, you haven't!

Looking at the just posted skin pictures, I am very much struck by the massiveness of the Fea's Petrels' bills (note use of apostrophes: what a perfect sentence to use as an example!) which I am sure on reasonable field views would be noticeable. Probably not just outside the Runnelstone though!

John
 
Hugo,

Dutch Birding 2008, 30(1), split Pterodroma deserta 'Desertas Petrel' from P. feae, citing Robb, M.S., Mullarney, K.M. & The Sound Approach 2008, Petrels Night and day: a Sound Approach Guide, Poole.

I have not yet seen the book, but presumably the separation is based upon vocalisation differences.

Richard

biometrics and breeding season differ too.

does anyone know if nominate fea definitely occurs in the seas around Madeira - this (the split) makes things at least a third trickier!

Rob
 
Ok, so Dutch Birding has a split to Pterodroma deserta for the Fea's that occur in Madeira Archipelago.

Rob asked about the nominate in Madeira. For us in Madeira Islands we never differentiated this species, as all birds seen have been recorded as Pterodroma feae deserta. And the trapped birds in Desertas have close measurements.

Is the nominate Pterodroma mollis or Pterodroma feae?
 
Ok, so Dutch Birding has a split to Pterodroma deserta for the Fea's that occur in Madeira Archipelago.

Rob asked about the nominate in Madeira. For us in Madeira Islands we never differentiated this species, as all birds seen have been recorded as Pterodroma feae deserta. And the trapped birds in Desertas have close measurements.

Is the nominate Pterodroma mollis or Pterodroma feae?


nominate is P.f. feae. if the only birds seen around Madeira are local P.(f.) deserta and Zino's the comparisons made there may not be the same as those when comparing nominate feae (which is assumed to account for vagrants to Europe) with Zino's.

Rob
 
nominate is P.f. feae.

...nominate feae (which is assumed to account for vagrants to Europe)...

Rob

P. feae is on BOURC's British List (7th Ed) as 'race undetermined'; the Dutch list still has just P. feae/madeira/mollis 'soft-plumaged petrel'.

Although the population of P. (f.) feae is considerably larger than that of P. (f.) deserta, relative proximity could suggest that deserta is more likely off western Europe.

But given how long it has taken to prove the occurrence off Britain of P. feae (sensu lato) vs P. madeira, and the fact that it is probably necessary to collect a specimen to separate deserta from feae, I suspect we will never know!

Richard
 
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