Over 800,000 birds illegally killed on British military base in Cyprus last autumn (1 Viewer)

I can only agree with all of the points Jos makes below.

Ignoring all the waffle, the situation is that serious organised crime is being committed on an industrial scale on British territory. The only credible action by the UK authorities is to devote sufficient resources and effort to tackle that criminality.

We can talk all we like about the delicate political situation, but the fact is that the activities in question are illegal under Cypriot law, so what credible political leverage can be gained by the Cypriot political establishment? Complain that the British authorities are being too diligent in upholding the law?

The arguments about how to effectively punish the criminals involved and potential "quid pro quo" by the Cypriot authorities are rather extraordinary. I would expect the British authorities to deal with them according to the laws applicable to the SBA. As an ally and civilised state, I would expect the Cypriot authorities to deal with criminal acts by British servicemen in accordance with their judicial system.

At the very least, confiscating nets and clearing trapping sites would seem a straightforward measure if prosecuting serious criminality is all just too difficult for some.

Regarding funding: we are talking relatively paltry sums here. Maybe the overseas aid budget can be deployed - I believe there would be some spare cash in the pot if the funding for the Ethiopian Spicegirls is stopped http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/19/ethiopian-spice-girls-given-5m-british-foreign-aid-despite-previous/.

As for the terrorism angle: as others have mentioned, it's hardly a glowing tribute to SBA security if poachers can operate with impunity.

Jos Stratford said:

Major failure, absolutely.

It is British-controlled territory where an illegal activity is being allowed to continue that is netting millions of euros for the perpetrators. Continuing at record levels, this cannot be seen as anything but a major failure. If the UK authorities police the area, with a stated aim of deterring and preventing crime, then the absolute failure to do that is is exactly that, a major failure.

All your preceding paragraphs were, sorry to say, waffle - effectively arguing the police need to overlook this crime because they need to more or less look at a bigger picture is effectively rubbish. As for the argument about security being a more important issue, this failure also affects security - the article itself says parts of the firing range are becoming no-go areas for the police force due to the presence of trappers at night, etc. If this is true, a double failure.

Imagine this were in some small quarter of southern Devon or Dorset - 800,000 birds were being illegally killed in a single autumn, the police were scaling back operations to avoid upsetting the locals - it would be a disgrace. There would be legitimate questions asked about the lack of police action.

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MTem said:

I'm with Jos on this one. Some individuals are making lots of money from criminal activities on land for which the British authorities, and hence 'we', are responsible.
True, Farnboro John, those authorities have a lot on their plate at the moment and keeping things calm with the locals is no doubt an objective, but this just sends out the wrong signals, and makes a hypocrisy of other claims by our Government on other similar environmental topics. Malta for example.....
I wrote once before to my MP on the topic, and it might be time for another letter. Has there been a petition on the topic?

As Jos said imagine if it was the Otterburn ranges (.....well actually there we come to grouse shooting estates....), or Salisbury plain, or Gibraltar.

Mick

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Exactly. Tory government: no interest whatever in our environment let alone someone else's. There is no appetite in Government for this fight.

Incidentally its an entirely wrong end of the stick to lump all MOD land together. A training area is not a base, even if it is right next to it and sovereign territory: its not defended, its outside the wire, its open access by default.

I spent most of my childhood playing on MOD training areas, and these days I spend a fair bit of time birding on them. Its only if you go somewhere sensitive (like the live artillery ranges near Larkhill on Salisbury Plain, for instance) that you are remotely likely to see a MOD plod. Most of the time you won't even see a soldier. There is plenty of dead time for the poachers.

And if you speak to the MOD conservation guys based at Catterick they can tell you that keeping local shooters from persecuting birds of prey even on MOD land in Britain is very difficult - insufficient resources and the need to be lucky all the time while they only have to be lucky once...

You will note I don't say its right. I just say it is what it is.

John

"The crime team is being increased from a squad of six to 11."

"Conservationists welcomed the move but point out that they must patrol a base that sprawls over 100 square miles."

Eleven policemen! There are more outside my local pub on an average Saturday night!

Both the Police and Soldiers are often shot at by armed trappers but are not allowed to fire back (pers comm)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-37557924

These need a bit of pressure - http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/search.html?country=CY

Letters to the Editor of The Times today (March 18th) include one titled 'Songbird Slaughter' by Chris Davies MEP 1999-2014.

It ends "British parliamentarians seem mostly unaware of their responsibilities. They should wake up and demand that the killing stops on military bases funded by the taxpayers they represent."

I plan to refer to this letter in mine to my MP. Can I suggest others do likewise?

Mick

MTem said:

Letters to the Editor of The Times today (March 18th) include one titled 'Songbird Slaughter' by Chris Davies MEP 1999-2014.

It ends "British parliamentarians seem mostly unaware of their responsibilities. They should wake up and demand that the killing stops on military bases funded by the taxpayers they represent."

I plan to refer to this letter in mine to my MP. Can I suggest others do likewise?

Mick

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Spot on, good move.

Jos Stratford said:

Spot on, good move.

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I agree, any "outside" support can only help!


Shane

Good luck (there's no point even writing to my MP, he told me the last time hunting with dogs came up that voting to allow it was a matter of conscience for him: I concluded he didn't have one.)

I should imagine if the Government says anything, it will be along the lines that just as for a new Scottish referendum, now is not the time to distract from Brexit by making waves with our allies in the war against terror. But given the treatment they handed out to the driven grouse shooting petition, they are more likely to make a note to order ambelopoulia for the next Tory banquet as fact-finding.

John

Farnboro John said:

Good luck (there's no point even writing to my MP, he told me the last time hunting with dogs came up that voting to allow it was a matter of conscience for him: I concluded he didn't have one.)
John

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So happy to endorse law breaking, currently happening all over this country as I write too...

Time for a domestic cull..

Farnboro John said:

You lot should be grateful they divert any effort to the conservation fight, not complaining that they don't do more.

John

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Farnboro John said:

Leave criticism of the people doing all they can to those who have at least a glimmer of an idea what they are talking about.

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Farnboro John said:

I am suggesting [posters here] have no idea of the implications of trying even to do a sensible minimum about it


If it was down to me there might be funds provided - though I'd probably spend them on up-gunning and increasing anti tiger and rhino poaching efforts in relevant countries instead.

John

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Farnboro John said:

Good luck (there's no point even writing to my MP, he told me the last time hunting with dogs came up that voting to allow it was a matter of conscience for him: I concluded he didn't have one.) I should imagine if the Government says anything, it will be along the lines that just as for a new Scottish referendum, now is not the time to distract from Brexit by making waves with our allies in the war against terror.

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Have to say John, I find your attitude to this weird. Quite rightly you have over months condemned poaching of Rhinos on quite a number of times, giving your opinions on how the fight should be stepped up. Seem to remember you voicing your opinions on Malta on more than one occasion, but to large-scale illegal operations occurring on British-controlled territories, where 800,000 birds are killed in a single autumn, it almost feels that you are defending it in telling us that we should be grateful that they are doing anything at all, that we should cut out the criticism or leave it those who 'have a glimmer of an idea', or by espousing a stance that those posting here have no idea of what they are talking about.

Good to see you might provide additional funds if it were down to you, though with the caveat that you'd probably divert it to actions against poaching of rhinos or tigers. Countries such as South Africa are taking the fight against poachers very seriously, they are putting their more limited national resources into activities to try and stop poachers infiltrating across borders to get to Rhinos in Kruger for example (incidentally Kruger is 7500 sq miles, the Cyprus base less than 100 sq miles). So yes, very good that you support their attempts to stop this illegal activity, just totally baffles me that you take such a contrary position when it comes to the large scale illegal killing that is occurring on British territory, an area considerably smaller and easier to effectively police than the vastness of the African bush, especially given the UK's considerably higher resource level.

I know you work in the MOD sphere, but beats me how you can not do anything but condemn the pitiful actions taken by the UK authorities.

Jos Stratford said:

Have to say John, I find your attitude to this weird. Quite rightly you have over months condemned poaching of Rhinos on quite a number of times, giving your opinions on how the fight should be stepped up. Seem to remember you voicing your opinions on Malta on more than one occasion, but to large-scale illegal operations occurring on British-controlled territories, where 800,000 birds are killed in a single autumn, it almost feels that you are defending it in telling us that we should be grateful that they are doing anything at all, that we should cut out the criticism or leave it those who 'have a glimmer of an idea', or by espousing a stance that those posting here have no idea of what they are talking about.

Good to see you might provide additional funds if it were down to you, though with the caveat that you'd probably divert it to actions against poaching of rhinos or tigers. Countries such as South Africa are taking the fight against poachers very seriously, they are putting their more limited national resources into activities to try and stop poachers infiltrating across borders to get to Rhinos in Kruger for example (incidentally Kruger is 7500 sq miles, the Cyprus base less than 100 sq miles). So yes, very good that you support their attempts to stop this illegal activity, just totally baffles me that you take such a contrary position when it comes to the large scale illegal killing that is occurring on British territory, an area considerably smaller and easier to effectively police than the vastness of the African bush, especially given the UK's considerably higher resource level.

beats me how you can not do anything but condemn the pitiful actions taken by the UK authorities.

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There's two questions here, or at least that's how I see it.

Firstly, there's MOD's resources and purpose on Cyprus, which limit what the actual people there can actually achieve. That is why I suggest we should be grateful for the SBA police taking time out from their primary purpose of providing a safe environment for the people there, to deal with what is a secondary task, in an environment where the poachers have all the advantages.

Secondly, there's the total resources available to the UK Government: which are of course massive - but largely committed elsewhere. It's an elected Government and I don't have to agree with everything (or indeed anything) that it does. And I don't. Some of what it does I am vehemently opposed to (such as enabling BOP persecution through its disgusting attitude, made plain by the appalling travesty of a response to a very well supported petition). Some I don't feel quite so strongly about but would prefer to see resources spent on something else (such as fertility treatment, which with an over-sized and burgeoning human race let alone UK population is the last thing we should be spending money on).

I find it hard enough to make decisions about which charities to support (apart from my long-term subscription to RSPB) so I certainly understand how difficult the choices are in Government and accordingly find it difficult to openly condemn HMG in this case. Its already been made pretty clear by the acacia removal being stopped that they do feel the need to walk a tightrope between taking anti-poacher action and not making the lives of the Service people operating out of Cyprus very difficult in addition to the difficulties of their normal business. I also fairly strongly feel that this is not a proper use of the Defence budget, so perhaps it should be another Department leading: but which? Presumably not either the Foreign Office or DFID, as the Cypriot government doesn't seem to want intervention. English Nature? What do you want them to stop doing to deal with this?

This is a friendly foreign country that we require the goodwill of to conduct our own Eastern Med/Middle East operations. We can't tramp around with big boots in a "send a gunboat" way however attractive the idea is superficially. If you think I'm not annoyed and upset about the poachers you are wrong. But HMG needs to find a way to act that doesn't put its people at higher risk than they are already and that doesn't just move the problem off the SBA and a couple of miles down the road.

John