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Unable to find the ID!!!

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Old Saturday 17th November 2007, 22:53   #1
sjahanmi
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Question Unable to find the ID!!!

Hi,

Was trying to ID these four birds. Unfortunately I ended up with something which makes no sense at all. So I need ur help to ID them. And any advise...

http://www.fsquares.com/bis/Photo.aspx?q=3556
http://www.fsquares.com/bis/Photo.aspx?q=3552
http://www.fsquares.com/bis/Photo.aspx?q=3554
http://www.fsquares.com/bis/Photo.aspx?q=3555

Thankx & Regards

Shah
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Old Saturday 17th November 2007, 23:05   #2
gerdwichers8
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Hi,

1Chifchaf
2Chifchaf
3Waterpipit
4Kestrel
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Old Saturday 17th November 2007, 23:10   #3
J Moss
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1 - not a clue!
2 - dark legged Willow Warbler
3 - Water Pipit is the best I can do. coutellii perhaps?
4 - European Kestrel.

I'm sure someone will improve on this

Jason
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Old Saturday 17th November 2007, 23:36   #4
nickderry
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Could 2 be a Siberian Chiffchaff? The head pattern looks good for that. Willow Warbler is out on account of the primary projection, all dark beak and dark feet. (Or so my books lead me to believe!)
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Old Sunday 18th November 2007, 01:15   #5
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And these two joins the unknown ID list.
:(

http://www.fsquares.com/bis/Photo.aspx?q=3559
http://www.fsquares.com/bis/Photo.aspx?q=3558

Thankx In Advance

Shah
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Old Sunday 18th November 2007, 03:46   #6
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Well Shah

If you look carefully, you will see they resemble one of the species already identified for you!

Sean
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Old Sunday 18th November 2007, 08:34   #7
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To me the last two looks like water pipit... But not really sure..

Regards
Shah
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Old Sunday 18th November 2007, 12:46   #8
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You got it!

Well done!

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Old Sunday 18th November 2007, 14:03   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickderry View Post
Could 2 be a Siberian Chiffchaff? The head pattern looks good for that. Willow Warbler is out on account of the primary projection, all dark beak and dark feet. (Or so my books lead me to believe!)
Siberian Chiffchaff (subspecies tristis) can be separated from European Chiffchaffs based on the absence of yellow tones in the supercilium and on the breast, and the absence of green tones on the upper back and head (according to the old Svensson's guide). Bird nr 2 seems to have some yellowish wash in the supercilium, and the crown also looks a bit greenish, although the light is quite bad.
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Old Sunday 18th November 2007, 17:41   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAU View Post
Siberian Chiffchaff (subspecies tristis) can be separated from European Chiffchaffs based on the absence of yellow tones in the supercilium and on the breast, and the absence of green tones on the upper back and head (according to the old Svensson's guide). Bird nr 2 seems to have some yellowish wash in the supercilium, and the crown also looks a bit greenish, although the light is quite bad.
I agree, the lighting is very bad to judge colours from the photo, as I see it the only yellow is at the bend of the wing, but what would it look like in a different photo? To me the bird looks quite washed out and with a strong supercilium, it doesn't strike me as being an ordinary collybita. Would like to know if it called. Fulvescens perhaps?
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Old Monday 19th November 2007, 01:54   #11
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Thank you all. So the list looks like this now.

Chifchaf : http://www.fsquares.com/bis/Photo.aspx?q=3556
Willow Wabler : http://www.fsquares.com/bis/Photo.aspx?q=3552
Waterpipit : http://www.fsquares.com/bis/Photo.aspx?q=3554
Kestrel : http://www.fsquares.com/bis/Photo.aspx?q=3555
Waterpipit : http://www.fsquares.com/bis/Photo.aspx?q=3559
Waterpipit : http://www.fsquares.com/bis/Photo.aspx?q=3558

Thankx Once again.
Shah
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Old Monday 19th November 2007, 06:37   #12
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Number 2 isn't a willow warbler, it's one of the chiffchaffs due to the all dark legs and feet, all dark beak and short pimary projection.
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Old Monday 19th November 2007, 08:32   #13
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Agree with Nick, the second photo is a Chiffchaff and not a Willow Warbler.

Not sure the last photo of a very wet pipit is a Water Pipit either, with pale bill and legs...
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Old Monday 19th November 2007, 13:29   #14
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OK..Bob Tag I concur that the 'wet' pipit might well be something else..but it is certainly a pipit!

Sean
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Old Monday 19th November 2007, 18:02   #15
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OK..Bob Tag I concur that the 'wet' pipit might well be something else..but it is certainly a pipit!
How about a watered pipit? Sorry, couldn't resist.

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Old Monday 19th November 2007, 18:27   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickderry View Post
I agree, the lighting is very bad to judge colours from the photo, as I see it the only yellow is at the bend of the wing, but what would it look like in a different photo? To me the bird looks quite washed out and with a strong supercilium, it doesn't strike me as being an ordinary collybita. Would like to know if it called. Fulvescens perhaps?
The subspecies that breeds for example in Finland, abietinus, is already plainer coloured than the nominate subspecies (collybita) that occurs in Western Europe. Sometimes quite washed out individuals can be seen, which still call like typical western Chiffchaffs. During the autumns, Chiffchaffs that call "heep" arrive in small numbers, but it has turned out that probably only a minority of them satisfy the criteria for being pure tristis (when studied in the hand), at least according to the criteria mentioned by Svensson. Those intermediate birds could probably then be called 'fulvescens'. Based on Shah's pictures, I wouldn't call the second Chiffchaff even a fulvescens (due to the bad light and the lack of a heard call), but it is of course completely possible (actually I don't know if all intermediate birds even call like tristis)... Anyway, I think that I see some yellowish in the supercilium in front of the eye (maybe below the lores also), but of course it can just be a photographic artefact or due to my screen settings.

By the way, I haven't heard that the strong supercilium would be used as a criteria for tristis (but I really haven't been following what the literature and various articles say about the subspecies...).

Last edited by CAU : Monday 19th November 2007 at 18:31.
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Old Monday 19th November 2007, 20:39   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAU View Post
The subspecies that breeds for example in Finland, abietinus, is already plainer coloured than the nominate subspecies (collybita) that occurs in Western Europe. Sometimes quite washed out individuals can be seen, which still call like typical western Chiffchaffs. During the autumns, Chiffchaffs that call "heep" arrive in small numbers, but it has turned out that probably only a minority of them satisfy the criteria for being pure tristis (when studied in the hand), at least according to the criteria mentioned by Svensson. Those intermediate birds could probably then be called 'fulvescens'. Based on Shah's pictures, I wouldn't call the second Chiffchaff even a fulvescens (due to the bad light and the lack of a heard call), but it is of course completely possible (actually I don't know if all intermediate birds even call like tristis)... Anyway, I think that I see some yellowish in the supercilium in front of the eye (maybe below the lores also), but of course it can just be a photographic artefact or due to my screen settings.

By the way, I haven't heard that the strong supercilium would be used as a criteria for tristis (but I really haven't been following what the literature and various articles say about the subspecies...).

Part of the literature I've been following (and I'm only just starting ti try and get to grips with these more complicated warblers) was this website (in French unfortunately) http://www.ornithomedia.com/pratique...nt_art63_1.htm
it mentions that tristis has a relatively clear cut supercilium, which from looking at the photos of these birds looks quite strong to me, abietinus is more diffuse behind the eye. I certainly don't think this bird can be identified to race with any positivity, but I am certainly enjoying the discussion
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