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Green Hermit (1 Viewer)

First of all I agree that there is no clear evidence that both are the same person. Nevertheless this doesn't exclude that it isn't possible. In Anatomie en cire, anatomie humaine et comparée, phrénologie, histoire naturelle of the year 1850 you mentioned earlier he called himself:

Naturaliste, Preparateur d'anatomie artificielle de la Faculté de Médicine de Paris et du Val-de Grace, modeleur de l'Acadédemie de Médecine, Fornisseur des Musées et ècole de Médecine secondaires de France, de plusieurs Universités Étrangeres etc.

For me it looks like many natural history dealers from Paris disappeared around the time Guy aîne published this work e. g. Maison Verreaux, Parzudakis, Henry Dupont (many of them discussed here in the forum in the past). Why they disappeared? Maybe due to market saturation/pressure in this area? I can only speculate. So there is a chance that Guy aîne run into financial problems as well and searched for new opportunities in Toulouse.

Of course Phaethornis guy was described in 1833. As the specimen was provided by M. Guy he must have been at least in a certain age. Assuming he was 19 at that time he would have been born around 1814. If he was older the Toulouse guy may become less possible as indeed in 1894 he would have been than more than 80 years. But it is possible as e.g. Marc Athanase Parfait Œillet Des Murs published 1887/88 books (when he was 84 years of age). So why shouldn't Guy pursued his hobby fishes in old age?

Why I think it could be him is the interest in natural history of Paris and Toulouse Guy aîné. It must be coincidence if two Guy aîne existed with very similar interests, but of course it is possible and there is no clear evidence and/or the Toulouse one might be a son of the Paris one. If the J. in HBW Alive key is correct Joseph could supporting this theory (or not as there are other names with J like Jean, Jacques etc.). At the moment I am not even sure if the Joseph Guy (the Elder) mentioned earlier by me in UK might be at least related to all this persons and he was partially living in UK here?

@ James: Where did the J. derived from in the key? At least I couldn't find any J. Guy in Lessons publications (but might be to stupid to find).

P.S. I know a lot of speculation and no clear evidence. Here => Select Cote : 1E553 - Dates : 1892 => page 73 could fit Jean Antoine Joseph Cadinier Guy (age 82) means born around 1809 in Bez-et-Esparon (Gard). But his fathers name was Joseph Guy as well.
 
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Just a couple of additional details about the Toulouse Guy.
If we see here in 1870 he was member of the Société Imperiale Zoologique d'Acclimatation with the adress:
The date is 1860. Note that this is a list of persons that had been admitted as members of the Société during the previous year (22 Apr 1859 - 27 Apr 1860).
[Here] is a publication from the same year (1860) in Mémoires de l'Académie royale des sciences, inscriptions et belles-lettres de Toulouse, describing a successful attempt to breed Bombyx sarrindia (for silk production) in Toulouse, which started in autumn 1859, and which "M. Guy aîné" took part to. (No address, but the caterpillars used to start the breeding programme are said to have been sent from Paris to Toulouse by the Société d'acclimatation, hence the link seems clear.)
His house number was added in the next volume (1861) of Bull. Soc. Imp. Zool. Acclim. [here]:
GUY aîné, propriétaire, rue de Cugnaux, 15, à Toulouse (Haute-Garonne).


M. Guy was said to be, not only the director, but also the founder of the Aquarium toulousain: [here]; and the wording [here] appears to imply that the place belonged to him. He was still cited as the director of the Aquarium and residing at the same address in 1880 [here]; but in 1881 [here], his address had changed, and in 1884 [here] he had certainly ceased this activity ("ancien directeur"). There is a short description of the Aquarium, dating from 1877, [here]; the place is said there to have included two small galleries positioned at right angles, and located in a small garden.

Not fully sure how this fits in the picture, but the place (the house with garden, glasshouses, aviaries, and the Aquarium, all located rue de Cugnaux, 15) had been offered for sale "for health reasons" in Jan 1873 -- [here] (last page):
A VENDRE. Pour causes de santé, à des conditions très avantageuses pour l'acquéreur, une jolie MAISON, avec Jardin, Serres, Volières, etc., etc., ainsi que l'AQUARIUM TOULOUSAIN, tout situé rue de Cugnaux, 15, Faubourg Saint-Cyprien.
(Maybe he recovered / did not find any acceptable purchaser / changed his mind...?)

In 1895, he had disappeared from the lists of the Société d'acclimatation [here]; he was listed as a life member in 1885 [here], so this suggests he had died.


PS - (and to keep all the links here. ;)):
and accprding Inventaire des papiers de la Division des sciences et lettres du Ministère de l'instruction publique et des services qui en sont issus:
Guy aîné (Joseph): [here] (indemnity, 1877.)
(Note that this is not a contemporary source, though.)
 
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There was still a Guy aîné, rue de Cugnaux in Toulouse, in 1894 [here]... There presenting himself as a pisciculteur (fish breeder), asking around about fishes that might be offered for sale.
Jacques Marie Guy, son of Bernard Guy and Joséphine Alexandre, born in Tournefeuille (Haute Garonne), died 24 July 1894, 19 rue du Cugnaux, aged 74. ([Here] > Cote : 1E562 > Vue 275.)
(This means he was only 13 when the hermit was described.)

The main caveats here may be that the address is 19 rue de Cugnaux, thus not 15 as originally; that, if we believe the lists of society members, "our" Guy appears to have moved away from the rue de Cugnaux prior to that date; and that he is not named Joseph as in the Inventaire des papiers de la Division des sciences etc.: Jacques Marie was certainly the Guy aîné who published that 1894 advert, but there may still be a chance that he was not the former director of the Aquarium.


Here => Select Cote : 1E553 - Dates : 1892 => page 73 could fit Jean Antoine Joseph Cadinier Guy (age 82) means born around 1809 in Bez-et-Esparon (Gard). But his fathers name was Joseph Guy as well.
I would read it Jean Antoine Joseph Casimir Guy. But he is presented as "garde d'artillerie de première classe à la retraite" (retired first-class artillery guard), which doesn't really match "our" Guy.
 
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OK as usual very good analysis. I tried to find OD of syn. to Nymphicus hollandicus as mentioned in the key but till now I failed. Anyone knows where to find it?
 
And Martin, don´t miss the page just before Le Calopsitte Guy, written in May 1832.
On doit singulièrement regretter de ne point avoir de détail sur les habitudes de cet oiseau rare , et dont nous ne connaissons aucune figure. Les deux individus que nous avons fait peindre nous ont été communiqués par M. Guy.
 
The "J. Guy" referred to in the Key has been simply brought forward from my Dictionary 1991, and the reason behind "J", alas, lost in the mists of time (i.e. I have forgotten).
 
A tiny tiny bit more about Guy aîné. The link of Martin mentions Vasseur, naturaliste. This is M. Vasseur who had natural history and anatomical models at his shop at 9 Rue de l' Ecole de Medicine in Paris. This was taken over by Maison Tramond and then Maison Rouppert. In a book about horns by Arthur Éloffe he states "Son portrait (fig. 93) a ete execute en cire par M. Guy aine, preparateur de pieces anatomiques. Footnote 1. Cette curiouse piece anatomique est en moment chez M. Vasseur, naturaliste, rue de l’Ecole de Medecine, 9. (Ancienne maison Guy)" There is a picture of a human head with a horn coming out of it on page 101. (fig. 93) https://books.google.com/books?id=bYyRcB7xL8YC&dq="Ancienne+maison+Guy"&source=gbs_navlinks_s .
M. Vasseur was trained by this person:
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/public/m...C=1&SYN=1&IMLY=&MAX1=1&MAX2=1&MAX3=50&DOM=All . He taught surgery and zoology. M. Éloffe's brother in law was Nerée Boubée the founder of L'echo du mond savant. They had a shop at 10 Rue l'Ecole de Medicine.
 
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Just to add a small thing to...

A tiny tiny bit more about Guy aîné. The link of Martin mentions Vasseur, naturaliste. This is M. Vasseur who had natural history and anatomical models at his shop at 9 Rue de l' Ecole de Medicine in Paris.

We discussed him as well here...

PS. One more thing! Take a peek at this link (here): a M. (Monsieur) Vasseur (!?) and a M. Boissonneau on the same page!?
 
A tiny tiny bit more about Guy aîné. The link of Martin mentions Vasseur, naturaliste. This is M. Vasseur who had natural history and anatomical models at his shop at 9 Rue de l' Ecole de Medicine in Paris. This was taken over by Maison Tramond and then Maison Rouppert. In a book about horns by Arthur Éloffe he states "Son portrait (fig. 93) a ete execute en cire par M. Guy aine, preparateur de pieces anatomiques. Footnote 1. Cette curiouse piece anatomique est en moment chez M. Vasseur, naturaliste, rue de l’Ecole de Medecine, 9. (Ancienne maison Guy)" There is a picture of a human head with a horn coming out of it on page 101. (fig. 93) https://books.google.com/books?id=bYyRcB7xL8YC&dq="Ancienne+maison+Guy"&source=gbs_navlinks_s .
M. Vasseur was trained by this person:
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/public/m...C=1&SYN=1&IMLY=&MAX1=1&MAX2=1&MAX3=50&DOM=All . He taught surgery and zoology. M. Éloffe's brother in law was Nerée Boubée the founder of L'echo du mond savant. They had a shop at 10 Rue l'Ecole de Medicine.

So here could be the solution as it is written:

Guy aîne (Claude-Joseph), rue de l'École-de Médecine, no 4
 
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The Eponym Dictionary of Birds claims:
Hummingbird genus Guyornis Bonaparte, 1854 NCR [Now in Phaethornis]
Guy's Hermit Phaethornis guy Lesson, 1833 [Alt. Green Hermit, White-tailed Hermit]
J. Guy (DNF) was a French naturalist, about whom little is known.

It might be that the above Guy aîne (Claude-Joseph) #32 married 1840 here p. 33 of 51 Victoire Amélie Chapron. Till now still no trace to his life dates. If he died before 1860 in Paris may be impossible to find more information. Filae shows a couple of Claude Joseph Guys and it might be that he wasn't from Paris. But the veuve here might still alive in 1878. Here his publication Anatomie en cire, anatomie humaine et comparée, phrénologie, histoire naturelle.
 
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Claude Joseph Guy
GENDER:homme (Male)
DEATH AGE:68
RECORD TYPE:Décès (Death)
BIRTH DATE:1798
BIRTH PLACE:Poutarlier (Doubs)
DEATH DATE:26 oct. 1866 (26 Oct 1866)
DEATH PLACE:France
FATHER:Pierre Claude Guy
MOTHER:Reine Baud
SPOUSE:Victoire Amélie Chapron

So right age. Not sure if death record gives you any clues.
 

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Unfortunately with Rentier as occupation very difficult to say. But than we should find him here p. 65 of 67 or here p. 45 of 47. There are two Claude Guy (Jean and François but no Joseph).
 
He died here p. 13 of 14 in 5. Arrondissementin Paris. The Catalogue here. I think it is him but ask myself who is Guy jeune? His brother Jacques Ignace Guy? If I read here footnote or here it is possible that Guy was proprietaire at least from 1858 on.
Mr. Vasseur war früher Präparateur in der Rue de la Sorbonne, gegenwärtig ist derselbe auch Nachfolger im Geschäfte von Guy-aîné (2, Rue de l'Ecole de Médecine ), dessen Renommée sich eigentlich und der Hauptsache nach in dem Fleisse und der intelligenten Thätigkeit des ungenannten Lieferanten Vasseur gegründet hatte, und vielleicht trotzdem eingegangen wäre, wenn es der rastlosen Bemühung des schlichten Mannes, über welches ich berichte, nicht gelungen wäre, das ganze Geschäft zu übernehmen.
See also #30.

Found his birth here p. 24 of 82 at 25 Frimaire l'an VIII.
 
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Found his birth here p. 24 of 82 at 25 Frimaire l'an VIII. But would be 4. November 1799?

The complete record is here, starting on 8/45, lower right, ending on the next image, upper left. (And he was indeed born on that day -- "le présent jour".)
This is 16 Dec 1799.
(Also, his mother here is given as Jeanne Reine Baud, and the locality is Pontarlier, not Poutarlier.)

His brother Jacques Ignace was in any case younger than him. (He is cited in the death record as being 58, while Claude Joseph Guy is said there to have died aged 68... which appears incorrect, however -- if born on 16 Dec 1799, he was 66 when he died.)
 
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