Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Zeiss - Always on the lookout for something special – Shop now

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Canon 7D MkIII ....

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 1 votes, 5.00 average.
Old Friday 19th October 2018, 15:42   #26
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,723
Exclamation Rumour Roundup .... !

With the 7D introduced in 2009, and the 7D MkII arriving 5 years later in 2014, the rumours in this thread's OP had the 7D MkIII being announced in March/April and launching in August ~ 4 years after the MkII.

Even then, the 7DII would have been having it's *rs* roundly kicked by the Nikon D500 for 2&1/2 years !

Then we were told the 7DIII would arrive in Q4 this year, and then not in 2018 at all. So that makes 3 years + and counting that the D500 will have been able to just run amok unchallenged. Even the DR of the MFT Olympus OM-D EM-1 MkII has been smoking the Canon for nearly 2 years and its resolution is equivalent to a 31MP APS-C (Canon) !!

What the Holy Hector is Canon thinking !!!

There has even been speculation that the next 7DIII would be Mirrorless ...... however the less than stellar tracking AF of Canon's EOS R debutant (and indeed even it's Nikon Z7 cohort) casts a significant shadow over that notion. This following rumour seems to bury it ! https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/in...019-cr2.36135/

Not only that, but the half a dozen year gestation period for the Canon 600 f4 DO now seems to be looking like debuting in Mirrorless 'R' mount .......

So much for my dream lightweight kit of 28MP 7DIII + 600 f4 DO ....... GRRRRR !!!

So it looks like the next 7D MkIII will still be a DSLR ...... the question is when ?!?

Canon typically hold their cards close to their chest, but at the moment we have ............. *crickets*

The only sound you can hear is the Nikon D500 Cash Register ringing up overtime !!! $$$




Chosun
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Monday 3rd December 2018, 22:39   #27
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,723
Question

So it looks like we are going slower than s - l - o - w - l - y Slow ......
https://m.dpreview.com/news/20393497...rting-may-2020




Chosun
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Sunday 30th December 2018, 20:38   #28
fingkisher
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Worthing
Posts: 20
Jumping on this thread late, but I truly think Canon can get away with a 7D III that has a mish-mash of the technologies that they have included in 6D/5D/1D iterations in between the 7D II and this version.

Any huge technological advances will be left for 2020 and the 1D X III (Olympics year = New Flagship).

We have to be realistic where the 7D actually sits in the line-up, and it is flagship APS-C technology. Has a whole full-frame, and now full-frame mirrorless line-up ahead of it in terms of 'prestige'.

But, this also means that the tech that does trickle down will be exceptional in a camera of this stature.

Certainly inheriting the 1DX II AF performance at least (by then it'll be a 3 year old camera), would still be a boon - especially with the f/8 multiple focus points thing that I believe the 7D II cannot do. There's also 4K, Dual-Pixel AF and touch screen tech to chuck in there too. A new APS-C sensor is probably due too.

So the 7D III will be just fine.
fingkisher is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 31st December 2018, 09:54   #29
Dave Williams
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: North Wales
Posts: 2,600
The 5D4 has much of the 1DX2's technology but in terms of AF acquisition it isn't nearly as good. Canon will deliver only what they think they need to do to keep abreast of competition. You are not going to get a 5k camera for 1.6k, it's not good marketing practice. They need to keep getting people to upgrade or production dries up. It was interesting how the 5D3 was able to perform new tricks once the firmware was updated.In other words, unblocked.That was only because competition demanded it was.
I would imagine that mirrorless is where Canon will want to start concentrating next.
In the meantime, I'm playing with what is available and don't really think about what's coming next .
Dave Williams is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 31st December 2018, 20:07   #30
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,723
Quote:
Originally Posted by fingkisher View Post
.....Any huge technolCanon's advances will be left for 2020 and the 1D X III (Olympics year = New Flagship).

We have to be realistic where the 7D actually sits in the line-up, and it is flagship APS-C technology. Has a whole full-frame, and now full-frame mirrorless line-up ahead of it in terms of 'prestige'.

But, this also means that the tech that does trickle down will be exceptional in a camera of this stature.

Certainly inheriting the 1DX II AF performance at least (by then it'll be a 3 year old camera), would still be a boon - especially with the f/8 multiple focus points thing that I believe the 7D II cannot do. There's also 4K, Dual-Pixel AF and touch screen tech to chuck in there too. A new APS-C sensor is probably due too....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Williams View Post
....Canon will deliver only what they think they need to do to keep abreast of competition....
The 2020 1DX MkIII will definitely be the flagship (going head to head with Nikon's D6, and probably a Sony a9m2 as well), but it's been 3-odd years now that the Nikon D500 has had it all over Canon's 7D II ....

Canon should take a leaf out of Nikon's book and have it's 'pro' APS-C on a pretty much even AF footing as the pro FF DSLR flagship. There are always other differences between pro APS-C and pro FF that sufficiently differentiate them (extra fps of the FF, better high ISO performance, full sensor 4K 60fps video vs cropped), but by and large they are both their respective 'flagships'. In terms of AF, Nikon's pecking order goes D5, D500, D850, everything else.

Obviously Mirrorless is the future (especially where video centric models play), but there are no super AF models on the near horizon for CaNikon - that will be left to the DSLR flagships (FF and APS-C). What we will see though, perhaps toward the end of 2019? or after the Olympics is high resolution (60-75MP) Mirrorless offerings. If they manage to match the Nikon D850 in AF performance they will be going well.

Canon needs to come out with a killer DSLR 7D III. It is possible they could do this in 2019 as a lead in to the IDX III arriving at the start of 2020.

That's my take on things anyway ....




Chosun
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Tuesday 1st January 2019, 16:43   #31
edenwatcher
Registered User
 
edenwatcher's Avatar

 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Fife
Posts: 3,334
You say this, but the 7D mkII is still a damn good camera which does more-or-less what I want. Of course it can be improved but I'd rather be out in the field than navel gazing wondering what Canon might do next.

Rob
edenwatcher is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2007 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Tuesday 1st January 2019, 23:11   #32
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,723
Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by edenwatcher View Post
You say this, but the 7D mkII is still a damn good camera which does more-or-less what I want. Of course it can be improved but I'd rather be out in the field than navel gazing wondering what Canon might do next.

Rob
I know the 7D MkII well. No doubt it's a really good camera that does a pretty good job - it's just that the number of cameras that do a better job is growing. It's getting on for 4&1/2 years old now and is due for replacement.

Since the Nikon D500 landed 3 years ago, the 7DII hasn't been in the running as a body - it's only the glass that keeps it afloat. I even prefer my Nikon D7200 to the Canon offering (a few fps notwithstanding). Add to that, the Fujifilm XT-3 released late last year, and even the Olympus OM-D EM-1 MkII is a competitor. The 7DII is simply not competitive with these latest sensors for DR. It could seriously use some Stacked BSI goodliness.

It also lacks 4K video capability (not that it is important for all users - but it is what the competition is offering). It's AF performance has been surpassed by the Nikon D500 from the moment it was launched, and arguably the Fujifilm and Olympus do a better job too. Even, overall, the now obsolete ~4 year old Samsung NX-1.

Canon is like the kid in class that scrapes by with a 53% pass mark - it is far from class leading, it's an also ran. I can't imagine they're selling very many at this point in time. Where's the compelling argument to 'buy now'? If folk want to argue that a stop or two of DR throughout the ISO range is of no consequence, then you might as well shoot a Sony RX-10 IV ...... no?

I'm kind of holding off on a major upgrade at the moment, and it's only natural that one company puts a neck in front of others at any one cycle in time, and that this changes, and surges among them as time goes on, as each tries to take the lead. Add to that you have to consider the system as a whole - body + lenses, and different companies have strengths in different areas.

It will interesting to see who wants the PRO APS-C top dawg spot the most .......... I'm waiting ...... and falling sales volumes say that I'm not the only one ........



Chosun
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Wednesday 2nd January 2019, 05:31   #33
Hermann
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,860
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
Since the Nikon D500 landed 3 years ago, the 7DII hasn't been in the running as a body - it's only the glass that keeps it afloat. I even prefer my Nikon D7200 to the Canon offering (a few fps notwithstanding). <snip> The 7DII is simply not competitive with these latest sensors for DR. It could seriously use some Stacked BSI goodliness. <snip>

It's AF performance has been surpassed by the Nikon D500 from the moment it was launched, and arguably the Fujifilm and Olympus do a better job too. Even, overall, the now obsolete ~4 year old Samsung NX-1.

Canon is like the kid in class that scrapes by with a 53% pass mark - it is far from class leading, it's an also ran. I can't imagine they're selling very many at this point in time. Where's the compelling argument to 'buy now'?
There's none. Unless you already own some *good* Canon glass and/or are used to the Canon UI and can't be bothered to switch. And both are pretty good reasons not so switch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
I'm kind of holding off on a major upgrade at the moment, and it's only natural that one company puts a neck in front of others at any one cycle in time, and that this changes, and surges among them as time goes on, as each tries to take the lead. Add to that you have to consider the system as a whole - body + lenses, and different companies have strengths in different areas.
Same here. I'm also waiting for new developments, especially now that the two big players seem to be getting serious about mirrorless cameras. I'm a Nikon guy, and if Nikon introduces a DX body with improved AF, I'll get it. If I were a Canon user I'd be waiting for the same type of body from Canon - provided Canon uses a sensor that's better than their current DX sensors.

Hermann
Hermann is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 2nd January 2019, 07:54   #34
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,723
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
..... I'm kind of holding off on a major upgrade at the moment, ....... It will interesting to see who wants the PRO APS-C top dawg spot the most .......... I'm waiting ...... and falling sales volumes say that I'm not the only one ........
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermann View Post
...... Same here. I'm also waiting for new developments, especially now that the two big players seem to be getting serious about mirrorless cameras. I'm a Nikon guy, and if Nikon introduces a DX body with improved AF, I'll get it. If I were a Canon user I'd be waiting for the same type of body from Canon - provided Canon uses a sensor that's better than their current DX sensors.
Hermann, based on the AF performance efforts of CaNikon's debut Mirrorless offerings, I don't think I'd hold my breath waiting for a 'PRO' level APS-C Mirrorless offering this year, or next. I predict both will use the large FF 'R', and 'Z' mounts, when they finally do surface, but I think there'll be a lot of models introduced before that.

In some ways I think Canon has (will have) the edge in the APS-C Mirrorless arena with what will be the choice of two different sized mounts - the smaller 'EOS-M' for the entry level/value products, and the 'R' for the PRO level which would allow use of high end native 'R' mount lenses designed for FF, along with just enough of a sniff of DX wideangles to keep the punters interested. Obviously there is no upgrade path between the two sized mounts or interchangeability of lenses - but I reckon that will suit Canon just fine. I think they'd be more than happy to have their entry level EOS-M customers fork out for an entirely new R mount system (whether APS-C or FF).

I think the big delay with PRO DX Mirrorless will be the AF performance. For this reason I think CaNikon will also steer clear of going head to head with the Sony a9 (or likely soon a9m2 in time for the Olympics) with an 'R9' and 'Z9' offering respectively .... I think we're looking at least at 2021+ for those high speed FF Mirrorless models. Instead I think CaNikon will go into battle with the Sony a9m2 with their big gun DSLR flagships - the pending Canon 1DX MkIII and the Nikon D6.

Perhaps sometime this year what we will see though are high resolution FF Mirrorless models of 60-75MP, likely called say the R8 and Z8 respectively. These may very well be replacements for the Canon 5DSR and the D850 respectively ..... perhaps we won't ever see those DSLR's upgraded again, or once more at most.

I like the ergonomic size of the Canon 7D/ Nikon D500 when paired with longer telephotos, so I am seriously seriously hoping that we see a Canon 7D MkIII and Nikon D500S this year. The Mirrorless AF baby steps, and both companies seemingly having no plans anytime remotely soon to offer their long telephotos in native Mirrorless mounts, indicate to me that DSLR will be the way they will go with their PRO level APS-C offerings.

The only caveat to this guesstimate is that the propeller heads and boffins in the backrooms may at this very point in time be nailing PRO APS-C Mirrorless performance, and be planning some surprise native Mirrorless long lens debuts - the 200-600 f5.6 in 'L' spec (as per the current 100-400 II), and the 600 f5.6 PF. If the body performance is a leap ahead of the current DSLR benchmark (the D500), and the ergonomics made sense, then I could get quite interested in that! :) Otherwise I'd be very happy with either a 7D MkIII or D500S --- the thing that will tip it will be what 600mm Diffractive Optics come out to suit ......

Either way I'm firmly waiting ......



Chosun
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Wednesday 16th January 2019, 12:53   #35
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,723
Question

An interesting rumour from Canon Rumours suggesting (the very un-Canon-like) rationalisation of their APS-C DSLR lines by combining somewhat the 80D and the 7DII to make the 7DIII. Presumably then they combine the old 77D and 80D into some sort of suceeding mid-range offering.
https://www.canonrumors.com/aps-c-ds...-shake-up-cr1/

This is interesting in the light of earlier 80D successor rumours predicting around ~30MP. It would quite the feat to have this accurately track at 10fps with a practically unlimited RAW buffer, needing a step up in processing power and latent information pipelines. Still with the flagship IDX III due for the Olympics, perhaps this computing architecture has already been nailed down and will be inherited by 'little brother' 7DIII ....... we can only hope :) ...... it might be half a chance of competing with Nikon's D500 (or likely D500S that will lob next year following the Big Kahuna D6).

In some ways this very un-Canon-like rationalisation actually makes sense to me as part of the long term transition to Mirrorless (whatever that eventually ends up looking like in APS-C form).




Chosun
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Wednesday 16th January 2019, 13:05   #36
stevo
Registered User
 
stevo's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hogwarts.
Posts: 2,898
O'h if only my 80D tracked like my 7dmkii & had the frame rate,it would be perfect.
stevo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 16th January 2019, 18:26   #37
fingkisher
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Worthing
Posts: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo View Post
O'h if only my 80D tracked like my 7dmkii & had the frame rate,it would be perfect.
That'd be a good start wouldn't it - shouldn't be too out of this realm for the 80D or 7D II upgrade really, either way.
fingkisher is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 17th January 2019, 14:09   #38
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,723
Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo View Post
O'h if only my 80D tracked like my 7dmkii & had the frame rate,it would be perfect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fingkisher View Post
That'd be a good start wouldn't it - shouldn't be too out of this realm for the 80D or 7D II upgrade really, either way.
I'm really hoping that Canon aims much higher than this - it's been getting whoop-*ssed ever since the Nikon D500 was launched.

There was a time when Canon was not just merely content to plug every market niche known to man with 'perfunctory' product ..... there was a time when Canon wanted to be market leaders with flagship performance in various sensor sizes.

Hopefully the upcoming APS-C EOS 7D III and the FF EOS 1DX III are just such epochal milestones where Canon tries to take the top dawg crown

Already any 7D III will have to match and surpass the Nikon D500 (and potential D500S too). Likewise the 1DX III will have to match not only the Nikon D5, but also the upcoming D6 and surpass that too.

What on earth will an even better performing D6 look like - who knows !? ..... higher resolution - 24MP, 28?, more? , downsampled 4K 60fps full video, state of the art processing, higher bit rate, higher resolution fully articulating screen, a higher resolution RGB sensor and even better AF. Better algorithims that track eyes etc. How fast can that mirror be made to flap? 16, 18, 20? fps. Obviously the processing and computing pathways /power /architecture will be fully capable of handling the load without restriction for practically unlimited RAW capability. Workflow and file transfer could take a huge leap forward in ease of use, efficiency, and speed. Could they retain the strength, durability, and weather sealing, while making the body lighter?

Much the same way that Nikon's D500 is virtually an APS-C version of the D5, Canon will have to fully enable the 7D III in the same way, rather than arbitrarily nobble various aspects of the APS-C to fit some imagined market niche and price point. They need to make the best 7D III they can to take the title. This means not only 1DX II AF performance, but 1DX III as well.

I would suggest that the current 10fps, or maybe 12 would be plenty, and allow some further differentiation with the FF 1DX III flagship. What is critical is that it have 1DX III (ie. Nikon D6 /D500S beating) levels of AF performance, tracking, and hit rate, along with Nikon / competitor beating Dynamic Range, and noise performance sensors. Perhaps if Canon can't make the next generation of class leading stacked BSI-CMOS sensors it might be time for them to look further afield to ensure their flagships are market leading .... ?

Will Canon deliver ?



Chosun
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Friday 18th January 2019, 00:48   #39
James Eaton
Trent Valley Crew
 
James Eaton's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 1,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post

Will Canon deliver ?

Chosun
No, they won't. Pretty clear they've been going downhill just before the release of the 7DII, and the slide has continued.

James
__________________
James Eaton

Website
Support the Oriental Bird Club, keeping those vagrants alive for you!
James Eaton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 18th January 2019, 10:49   #40
Dave Williams
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: North Wales
Posts: 2,600
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Eaton View Post
No, they won't. Pretty clear they've been going downhill just before the release of the 7DII, and the slide has continued.

James
Spot on James, as a regular at Premiership footy games I see that the vast majority of pro togs are using Canon gear and they all have "for sale" tags dangling on their kit bags.
Dave Williams is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 18th January 2019, 13:08   #41
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,723
Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Williams View Post
Spot on James, as a regular at Premiership footy games I see that the vast majority of pro togs are using Canon gear and they all have "for sale" tags dangling on their kit bags.
Dave, I take it you're being fair dinkum - is that Canon bodies for sale? (switching to Sony), Lenses for sale? (to trade up to the new III series supertelephotos), or bodies and lenses for sale? (to go over to the dark side in preparation for the Nikon D6 arriving), or something else?

I think this rumored 80D/7DII -> 7DIII amalgamation signals the beginning of the end for some DSLR line future development (ie it will likely see increasing rationalisation to reign in development costs which will be increasingly harder to recover in a shrinking market), though I expect the FF DSLR Flagship to be the top offering for the next 3~5 years .... the life of the 1DX III -- there aren't even hints of native Mirrorless R mount supertelephotos.

Or do the Canon faithful (and those hardened by years of waiting for various things) have some other mail or thoughts ..... ?




Chosun

Last edited by Chosun Juan : Friday 18th January 2019 at 14:09. Reason: Dan autocorrect !
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Tuesday 29th January 2019, 07:46   #42
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,723
Exclamation Canon CEO expects ILC market to shrink 50% by 2020 to just 5-6M units

Straight from the horse's mouth, what a lot of folk have expected for a long time ..... strange that the CEO of the camera company with the biggest market share isn't talking up competitive strategies, but instead is hoisting the white flag .......

https://m.dpreview.com/news/41156830...ust-5-6m-units

Perhaps the forthcoming CaNikon 1DX III, 7D III (hopefully), and the D6, and D500S (hopefully) for the 2020 Olympics will be the last roll of the DSLR dice (mid life upgrade to hybrid EOVF, and computational processing ~5 odd years down the track, notwithstanding :)

The retreat to the high end has begun.

And yet it doesn't seem to be beyond the wit of man to reinvigorate the larger format/ longer lens camera imaging offering ....... even better AF tracking, and lighter, sharper supertelephotos (as evidenced by the Canon Mk III's and the Nikon PF's)

Add to that the smartphone equalling computational photography, ease of work flow and sharing for the high end, and the value proposition mirrorless entry/enthusiast level offerings. The only thing needed to crunch bigger computational files in real time is more processing power and high data rate flow architecture ...... all of which seems possible economically as Moore's Law of integrated circuit design and processing still seems to be holding true up to this point.

As even flagship DSLR /Mirrorless technology seems to be becoming commoditized perhaps a real CaNikon merger might be the thing that saves the traditional big two ..... ?

From an ecological, sustainability, and economic efficiency standpoint it seems strange that we have two brand new mirrorless mounts within a p**fteenth of each other dimension wise - imagine the benefits if they'd just collaborated with the one common size, and their two respective adapter specs ...... ? Maybe that could have helped stave off the smartphone zombie hordes ........




Chosun
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Tuesday 29th January 2019, 16:40   #43
Malcolm Stewart
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Milton Keynes
Posts: 624
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
...As even flagship DSLR /Mirrorless technology seems to be becoming commoditized perhaps a real CaNikon merger might be the thing that saves the traditional big two ..... ?

... Chosun

You've forgotten Japanese pride...
__________________
- - - - - - - - -
Malcolm Stewart
Milton Keynes, UK
Malcolm Stewart is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 29th January 2019, 20:56   #44
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,723
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm Stewart View Post
You've forgotten Japanese pride...
Yes, true, I remember an old competitive push program by Komatsu which translated into "encircle Caterpillar" (and not in a friendly way !)

The old Japanese MITI fostered an elaborate series of Keiretsu and Zaibatsu. Many disparate groups were thrown together to work cooperatively and strategically for the national good.

I am sure both Canon and Nikon have long term plans to carve out a profitable market space, but the frank admission by Canon's CEO was telling .....

As a sustainably lineaged citizen of an at times blinkered and finite world, I just find it rather shortsighted that Canon with its mirrorless R mount, and Nikon with its mirrorless Z mount would build two separate, incompatible, and virtually dimensionally identical systems as the basis of their future camera business. Surely there are bigger fish to fry for the people's of the world, and a common mount would have not only been efficient resource and sustainability wise, but removed one of the barriers to growing the market as a whole (the large capital outlay by consumers). Of course the dichotomy for these historical giants, is that such a move would also remove one of the barriers that keeps consumers locked into one particular company over the other!

Sometimes there are times when you just have to move with the times ......




Chosun
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Sunday 3rd February 2019, 22:07   #45
etudiant
Registered User
BF Supporter 2019

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 4,282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post

As a sustainably lineaged citizen of an at times blinkered and finite world, I just find it rather shortsighted that Canon with its mirrorless R mount, and Nikon with its mirrorless Z mount would build two separate, incompatible, and virtually dimensionally identical systems as the basis of their future camera business. Surely there are bigger fish to fry for the people's of the world, and a common mount would have not only been efficient resource and sustainability wise, but removed one of the barriers to growing the market as a whole (the large capital outlay by consumers). Of course the dichotomy for these historical giants, is that such a move would also remove one of the barriers that keeps consumers locked into one particular company over the other!

Sometimes there are times when you just have to move with the times ......




Chosun
I'd be confident that this was seriously discussed by the firms involved.

How compatible such an agreement would be from an anti trust perspective with the survival of the other participants is one issue. The model, which does not exist in this space afaik, would be the electronics industry, where joint standards bodies hash out specifications for which the patents are licensed as required on a FRAND (Fair, Reasonable and Non Discriminatory) basis to all involved.

Perhaps the Japanese government should have provided guidance. Unfortunately, they did not.
etudiant is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Sunday 10th February 2019, 04:27   #46
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,723
Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
I'd be confident that this was seriously discussed by the firms involved.

How compatible such an agreement would be from an anti trust perspective with the survival of the other participants is one issue. The model, which does not exist in this space afaik, would be the electronics industry, where joint standards bodies hash out specifications for which the patents are licensed as required on a FRAND (Fair, Reasonable and Non Discriminatory) basis to all involved.

Perhaps the Japanese government should have provided guidance. Unfortunately, they did not.
Etudiant,

It would be very! interesting to know whether the subject of a common Mirrorless mount was ever broached between Canon and Nikon. It would also be interesting to know how such a notion would have been broached - whether informally between Directors out on the golf course, or whether it was in more formal meetings under non-disclosure agreements.

It would also be interesting to know if this would even be possible under anti trust laws as you say, and how this would be viewed. Given the relative sizes of the companies and their competitors, Nikon could be swallowed whole by Canon with nary a hiccup in terms of the major players on the field. In much the same way that the m43 mount was created, perhaps a common 'RZ' mount would be more tolerable in the competitive landscape than a full merger or acquisition. I also don't think that a common 'RZ' mount would trample on too many m43 toes, and thus may very well pass any competitive law barriers.

Even if a full 'CaNikon' M&A did take place (the name has existed colloquially for some time! :), they would still be around the same size as Sony, and Panasonic, but also those '3' are well outsized by arguably the smartphone competitor parents - Samsung, and Apple.

Even though standards bodies and various standards exist in the electronics industry, often it is still a strategic battle to be on the winning side. Look at the history of Betamax, and the battle over various storage devices /formats. Broadcast /display resolutions with first HD, then 4K, and the emerging 8K have been far more successful in the efficient allocation of resources and this has been of huge benefit to the consumer.

I'm more than a bit sad that this opportunity for a common 'RZ' Mirrorless mount wasn't taken - it would have been a massive boon for the consumer, and would have let the industry more effectively address external threats. About the only saving grace is that the R and Z mounts are so close in size that third party lens manufacturers can pretty much just tweak a common design. This doesn't help Canon or Nikon Mirrorless customers use each other's lenses though .... what a delicious prospect that would have been!




Chosun
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Sunday 10th February 2019, 19:23   #47
etudiant
Registered User
BF Supporter 2019

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 4,282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
Etudiant,

It would be very! interesting to know whether the subject of a common Mirrorless mount was ever broached between Canon and Nikon. It would also be interesting to know how such a notion would have been broached - whether informally between Directors out on the golf course, or whether it was in more formal meetings under non-disclosure agreements.....


I'm more than a bit sad that this opportunity for a common 'RZ' Mirrorless mount wasn't taken - it would have been a massive boon for the consumer, and would have let the industry more effectively address external threats. About the only saving grace is that the R and Z mounts are so close in size that third party lens manufacturers can pretty much just tweak a common design. This doesn't help Canon or Nikon Mirrorless customers use each other's lenses though .... what a delicious prospect that would have been!

Chosun
It may be simply that Nikon has too much to lose by opening its lens market.
Nikon is much smaller than Canon, so camera lenses are vastly more critical to their business.
With the Chinese in the wings, Nikon may see themselves as beleaguered, especially as their semiconductor industry optics business has lost ground with the emergence of EUV lithography.
Those concerns notwithstanding, one might still think that the camera industry really needs to rationalize their industry standards. Between the phones on the one hand and the Chinese on the other, the sector faces existential challenges. Yet the responses have been towards fragmentation rather than rationalization, as each firm pursues their own approach. Most likely there will be a crisis that results in a consolidation during the next serious recession.
etudiant is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Friday 15th February 2019, 22:39   #48
Kevin Conville
yardbirder
BF Supporter 2019
 
Kevin Conville's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: State of Chaos
Posts: 2,107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post

Or do the Canon faithful (and those hardened by years of waiting for various things) have some other mail or thoughts ..... ?
I have. It involves jumping ship to Nikon. And that's not something I've considered until recently

Canon has not delivered a path forward for me from a 7D and EF400 f5.6.
The 7DII wasn't good enough and the hypothetical 7DIII promises to not be enough. And Nikon's D500, for example, pretty well stomps a 7DII.

Canon refuses to do anything like Nikon's 200-500 and PF500 lenses.
The next jump up from my 400 would cost me a boatload of cash.

Hey Canon, if you're listening, not everyone makes a buck with their cameras and not all wildlife photographers want to spend five figures on a camera and lens and even if they did you don't make an APS body that's worthy.

Do I sound pissy today? Just frustrated.
__________________
my bird pics

Scott's Miracle Grow KILLING Birds, for Years!
read this: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=226714
Kevin Conville is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2018 2019 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Thursday 7th March 2019, 09:15   #49
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,723
Angry Frothing for a 7D MkIII ?? CP+ 2019 has just finished, and this is what Canon gave us

https://m.dpreview.com/articles/6691...on-gold-eos-rp

Click image for larger version

Name:	attachment.jpeg
Views:	26
Size:	32.8 KB
ID:	688941

Sorry Kevin !





Chosun
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Saturday 9th March 2019, 15:34   #50
Kevin Conville
yardbirder
BF Supporter 2019
 
Kevin Conville's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: State of Chaos
Posts: 2,107
I initially thought that was a joke. Sometimes I lose sight of the fact that Canon is a large company where beancounters have sway. Our little desires probably don’t account for much
__________________
my bird pics

Scott's Miracle Grow KILLING Birds, for Years!
read this: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=226714
Kevin Conville is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2018 2019 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.30125189 seconds with 40 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 22:23.