Swallow Bank or Northern Rough Winged? - Playa Del Rey, CA - USA (1 Viewer)

Swallow - Bank or Northern Rough Winged? - Playa Del Rey, CA - USA

Another bird from the Ballona Marsh today.

There were lots of Barn Swallows and what I thought were Northern Rough Wingeds flying all around the marsh.

Two were very accomodating on a fence and I snapped a few shots.

I got home and checked Sibley's and now I'm thinking maybe Bank Swallows and not NRW Swallow.

I'm going to go with Bank. I think that the frontal shots (2,4) are overexposed and so it's hard to see the definitive throat/breast pattern that Bank has. The pattern seems most apparent in shot4, and the rest of the breast just seems to be pure white. Also, there's the contrastingly darker flight feathers vs. the paler coverts (seen in shot3).

Really, Bank?

Looks nothing like the Bank Swallows (Sand Martins) we get in Europe or Asia.

Sean
Hiroshima

Check out the white from the throat that goes around the auriculars (shot1). Allow me to improvise what the necklace might look like had the shots not been in direct sunlight (compare them side-by-side with the actual photos to see the overexposure).

I was debating this one but tentatively I'm going to go with Bank Swallow (Sand Martin). Northern Rough Wings are generally more plain looking below.

AlexC said:

Check out the white from the throat that goes around the auriculars (shot1). Allow me to improvise what the necklace might look like had the shots not been in direct sunlight (compare them side-by-side with the actual photos to see the overexposure).

Click to expand...

If you saw the breast markings that didn't make it into the photo due to exposure settings then it is certainly a bank swallow.

I was thinking NRWS when I saw your initial post because the breast markings appeared to be absent.

I think these are NRWS. If JoAnn could post some larger pics it would help

I think these are NRWS as well. The breast-band on Bank swallows not only spans the breast but usually forms a downward peak on the belly. The darkish area below the throat on these photos looks more like ruffled feathers to me, either from wind or preening.

Where does the white behind the auriculars come from in shot1, then?

Still Bank for me.

I would like to see a bit more contrast on the back and rump. I would call the back color about the same as the wings which would point to Rough-winged. Not to mention that in most places in California (especially the coast) Northern Rough-winged Swallows outnumber Bank about 100 to 1.

(WARNING: Veering off-topic...)

Statistics like that always worry me - like "chances of a plane crash is small" or "chances of an alligator attack is small" - if you ARE in a plane crash or you ARE attacked by an alligator, you don't give a DAMN about statistics! :brains:

True statement. I only mention the "statistic" because I live on the CA coast and Bank Swallows are very hard to come by. You typically hear a report of one or a few at some coastal lagoon or pond, etc. In PONYRCR's original post the comment was made, "There were lots of Barn Swallows and what I thought were Northern Rough Wingeds flying all around the marsh" which might indicate there were several (?) swallows that could possibly be Banks. This immediately caught my attention before I saw the photos. Banks do breed in CA but their numbers have declined substantially over the past 100 years. That's not to say that PONY didn't see a few Banks beacause they do turn up especially in migration, but I don't think the bird in the photos is one.

Here's the thing

Bank Swallows usually show a breast-band with a dark line down the center of the breast as previously mentioned. The birds in the photos don't appear to have that and I would agree with previous comments that what appears to be a breast band, especially in shot four is in fact the wind ruffling up feathers.

Another field point for Bank Swallow (Sand Martin) is the white throat that contrasts with the breast band...again lacking on these birds, while Rough-winged has a dusky grey-brown throat.

A third characteristic of Bank Swallow is the white of the throat curving beind the ear coverts, which is a dusky color on Rough-winged. Contrary to what you say Alex i don't see it in shot one or the other two with the bird facing the camera. I think it is the strong sunlight creating that effect.

Plumage-tone wise Bank also tends to be greyer above than Rough-winged doesn't it? I don't really see that in the photos, but the strong sunlight makes t difficult to assess the true color.

I also think Bank have a more forked tail than Northern Rough-winged. These birds show fairly shallow-forked tails..but this is prettly subjective.

Another ID clincher would be the underwing and tail, with Bank having paler secondaries and primaries and outer undertail feathers, contrasting with the darker axillaries and inner tail feathers, while Rough-winged is all dark on the underwing and undertail.

Rough-winged also appear to have longer wings than Bank and those birds look pretty long-winged to me.

having said all that I have never seen Northern Rough-winged, only Bank Martin and it really is down t PonyRCR to say whether there were breast bands on these birds and the white auricular area behind the eye...and of course being a Brit with no field experience of Rough-wingeds i am happy to bow to greater knowledge.

If they were Northern Rough-wingeds I wish I'd been there to see them, as like so many mainland US birds I haven't had a chance to see them yet.

In Asia we have similar problems distinguishing Pale Martin, Plain Martin and Bank Martin..or at least I do..especially a bird last year on an offshore island in the Sea of Japan called Mishima where Bank Swallow are common, but I suspected that for a long while some are Pale Martin (common in Eastern China but not yet proved in Japan) and then one bird we found last year, but couldn't photograph was actually Plain Martin with only 2-3 records in Japan. Didn't even consider Rough-winged which is unlikely on range of course, but looks very similar to Plain, excet it lacks the contrst between pale rump and mantle of Plain! Also may have got Plain and Pale names mixed up!


Nice pics anyway.

Sean
Hiroshima

I didn't really notice any field marks when I was at the marsh.

When I saw them flying around and later on the fence, I just assumed they were NRW's.

It wasn't till I got home and uploaded the photos, then looked at some of my field guides that I thought maybe I was wrong.

I'll try and get more photos of them as I will be returning to the marsh in the near future.

To my eye these photos are of Northern Rough-winged Swallow. We get Tree, Rough-winged, Barn, Bank and Cliff Swallows here in Missouri and many times they will perch on utility wires for great comparisons. NRWS are rather hefty, sustantial looking birds. Bank swallows are quite a bit smaller and more delicate looking. As others have stated the Bank Swallow has the band across the upper breast with a downward point in the lower middle. This is pretty readily seen even on less than ideal views.

Let me start by saying that I see a lot more Northern Rough-wingeds in the field than Banks, and the apparent light throat and strong band would really catch my eye, and make me pick the bird out and give it a better look (assuming I can stay focused on it, swallows can be tough in that regard!)

That said, there are three field marks on these birds that I think are worthy of review.

1. As emphasized in Nat Geo (the big Companion) and illustrated in Sibley, Rough-wingeds have "dirty" flanks, and Banks have clean white flanks. The flanks in photos 1, 2 & 4 all look a bit dirty to me.

2. As emphasized in Nat Geo (the big Companion) Rough-wingeds have rumps that are somewhat paler than the rest of the brown upperparts. When I look at photo 4, I see a somewhat paler rump.

3. Per Sibley, Rough-wingeds have shorter tails than Banks. When I look at photos 2 & 3, I see fairly projection of a squarish tail beyond the undertail coverts.

As JCwings points out, the default is Rough-winged for the location, and despite the initial appearance, in my opinion, 1-3 above are too formidable to allow overcoming the default... Rough-winged for my vote.