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HBW and BirdLife Taxonomic Checklist v4

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Old Monday 23rd December 2019, 20:10   #101
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A little further research suggests that the authors of the paper recommending use of the name Chilappan for the Montecincla laughingthrushes may have done so under a misapprehension.

According to the authors ""Chilappan” stems from the local name of this genus (in Malayalam language), denoting their joyful cackling calls." However, it appears that the name is in fact used for a variety of babblers and laughingthrushes of various genera (including Wynaad Laughingthrush, which is a Garrulax).

If this is indeed the case, then I think the case for using Chilappan in the English name is unfounded, even ignoring objections to using a Malayalam word for an English name.
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Old Tuesday 24th December 2019, 10:12   #102
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A little further research suggests that the authors of the paper recommending use of the name Chilappan for the Montecincla laughingthrushes may have done so under a misapprehension.

According to the authors ""Chilappan” stems from the local name of this genus (in Malayalam language), denoting their joyful cackling calls." However, it appears that the name is in fact used for a variety of babblers and laughingthrushes of various genera (including Wynaad Laughingthrush, which is a Garrulax).

If this is indeed the case, then I think the case for using Chilappan in the English name is unfounded, even ignoring objections to using a Malayalam word for an English name.
Don't tell me all the entertaining squabbling has been in vain?

You'll be telling me Santa Claus/Father Christmas is a figment of my imagination next... I'll have to ask Edward Dickinson to get on to it!

Enjoy Christmas and New Year, everyone!
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Old Tuesday 24th December 2019, 12:06   #103
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Don't tell me all the entertaining squabbling has been in vain?

You'll be telling me Santa Claus/Father Christmas is a figment of my imagination next... I'll have to ask Edward Dickinson to get on to it!

Enjoy Christmas and New Year, everyone!
MJB
Oh, I wouldn't go that far! It's been pretty good value at times!

Merry Christmas!
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Old Tuesday 24th December 2019, 16:39   #104
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A simple solution to Olive Warbler being renamed because it is not a warbler would be 'Olive-warbler' (actually I would prefer Olive-Warbler) just like Honey-buzzard which is not a buzzard.
But it's neither olive coloured, nor found in olive trees
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Old Wednesday 25th December 2019, 11:59   #105
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Is Nashville Warbler found in Nashville or Garden Warbler in gardens?

Merry Christmas everyone!
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Old Wednesday 25th December 2019, 19:13   #106
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Is Nashville Warbler found in Nashville or Garden Warbler in gardens?

Merry Christmas everyone!
Tennessee Warbler, Sardinian Warbler, Kentish Plover et al........

Merry Xmas all.
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Old Wednesday 25th December 2019, 20:05   #107
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A simple solution to Olive Warbler being renamed because it is not a warbler would be 'Olive-warbler' (actually I would prefer Olive-Warbler).

Steve
I love it. That’s how I’m going to list it on my personal life list, which takes into account the IOC and Clements taxonomies, as well as some alternate names from those and other sources where I think they make more sense than the standard English names.

I personally think Ocotero is a terrible name and would start us down a slippery slope where the powers that be think they have to rename birds using indigenous languages, all, I suppose, in the name of political correctness.

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Old Wednesday 25th December 2019, 22:06   #108
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I personally think Ocotero is a terrible name and would start us down a slippery slope where the powers that be think they have to rename birds using indigenous languages, all, I suppose, in the name of political correctness.
Ocotero is far better than one of those ghastly hyphenated contrivances!
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Old Wednesday 25th December 2019, 23:13   #109
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It’s a bit funny to see the different antipathies brought forward.

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Old Thursday 26th December 2019, 07:54   #110
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I'm just curious as to how many of the people commenting on the Olive Warbler/Ocotero situation have actually read the proposal suggesting the name change.

I also rolled my eyes when I saw the proposal, thinking that as inaccurate, uniformative, and misleading as Olive Warbler is (and it's routinely cited as one of the 'worst' North American bird names), we don't need yet another name change. But then I went ahead and read the proposal (see http://checklist.aou.org/assets/prop...PDF/2020-A.pdf ) and the author makes an exceptionally good case for adopting Ocotero. Definitely worth a read for those who haven't.
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Old Thursday 26th December 2019, 10:29   #111
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I'm just curious as to how many of the people commenting on the Olive Warbler/Ocotero situation have actually read the proposal suggesting the name change.

I also rolled my eyes when I saw the proposal, thinking that as inaccurate, uniformative, and misleading as Olive Warbler is (and it's routinely cited as one of the 'worst' North American bird names), we don't need yet another name change. But then I went ahead and read the proposal (see http://checklist.aou.org/assets/prop...PDF/2020-A.pdf ) and the author makes an exceptionally good case for adopting Ocotero. Definitely worth a read for those who haven't.
I had, and agree with the proposal
One small error in it though,
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Ocotero is derived from ocote, a common Spanish term for various species of Latin American coniferous trees in the genus Pinus,
Ocote is actually a Nahuatl term, not a Spanish one
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Old Thursday 26th December 2019, 16:12   #112
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I find it hard to believe that folks here would actually prefer misleading names like Olive Warbler or Kentish Plover instead of accepting names that are not originally English. Especially when half of the names that are already in use never were English. To me this seems very small-minded
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Old Thursday 26th December 2019, 17:11   #113
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I find it hard to believe that folks here would actually prefer misleading names like Olive Warbler or Kentish Plover instead of accepting names that are not originally English. Especially when half of the names that are already in use never were English. To me this seems very small-minded
HALF!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is supposed to be a list of common names in English, do what you want with your German list.

Most people are aware of the innacuracy of some names though not always the fact that some may be in the wrong genus but this is information that wasn't available previously as the science was lacking. What would you suggest to replace Kentish Plover, it is still a Plover and Sardinian Warbler is still a Warbler?

It's interesting to see that many who are supporting the new names and criticising those who don't, actually speak English as a second language.
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Old Thursday 26th December 2019, 17:40   #114
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What would you suggest to replace Kentish Plover, it is still a Plover and Sardinian Warbler is still a Warbler?
There used to be Kentish Plovers in Kent - a sad reflection on humanity there aren't now. But otherwise, Alexandrine Plover from the sci name should be OK. Nowt wrong with Sardinian Warbler, they're common enough in Sardinia
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Old Thursday 26th December 2019, 17:56   #115
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"It's interesting to see that many who are supporting the new names and criticising those who don't, actually speak English as a second language."

And he wonders why there have been suggestions of xenophobia in the thread.

Whatever - welcome to the ignore list.
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Old Thursday 26th December 2019, 18:23   #116
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"It's interesting to see that many who are supporting the new names and criticising those who don't, actually speak English as a second language."

And he wonders why there have been suggestions of xenophobia in the thread.

Whatever - welcome to the ignore list.
How on earth is that xenophobic !!!!!

Another low poster who just chips in to be enraged but has nothing sensible to contribute, glad I won't have to respond to your faux outrage.

There are lists in Spanish, German, Dutch, French etc, why the outrage at an English list, why should we adopt Spanish and Malayalam names, they are not English names, you just don't get it some of you. You seem to blinded by a perceived wrong of your own invention and fall back on claims of racism and xenophobia to support a weak argument. What we are actually witnessing here is an anti English sentiment.

Some of you should watch this, I mean really watch and most of all, listen, it's an intelligent, non partizan examination of the UK election and liberalism which is relevant to the accusations made here............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kf1YKeq7lA

I'm withdrawing now, some here are incapable of sustaining reasoned debate without levelling accusations that have the sole aim of stifling opposing views.
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Old Thursday 26th December 2019, 20:57   #117
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Dear moderators.
I now have two posts deleted in this topic without any explanation.
I demand one or I’ll keep copy/pasting my posts, thanks!
I find it highly disturbing that posts are deleted without warning / notification (I actually never experienced something like that in any forum).
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Old Thursday 26th December 2019, 21:06   #118
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Dear moderators.
I now have two posts deleted in this topic without any explanation.
I demand one or I’ll keep copy/pasting my posts, thanks!
I find it highly disturbing that posts are deleted without warning / notification (I actually never experienced something like that in any forum).
I've had posts removed without warning or explanation in the past, why do you expect special treatment?

I hope your posts weren't racist?
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Old Thursday 26th December 2019, 22:23   #119
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I've had posts removed without warning or explanation in the past, why do you expect special treatment?

I hope your posts weren't racist?
In contrast to yours, temmies posts have always been insightful and moderate. I see absolutely no reason why any of his posts would be deleted, it seems obscene.

The thing that you don't seem to get, is that English names and the English language are not only used by the English! English has become a global language, perhaps the most important one in the world. It doesn't seem that much to ask, that here and there it might incorporate some local colour. I wonder, if you had lived a few centuries earlier, if you'd have rambled as much about Quetzal, Toucan or Tanager...
These names aren't changed, as you suggest, because someone out there feels like it. There's a reason: The birds in question aren't in fact laughing-thrushes, so in order to reflect new taxonomic insights and further our understanding, new names are suggested that help the layman notice that there's a difference between the species.
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Old Friday 27th December 2019, 02:36   #120
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It's a bit odd that some people are getting worked up over the name change of a bird THAT DOESN'T EVEN LIVE ON YOUR CONTINENT. I'd say whether or not the Ocotero becomes the new name lies with English speakers on this side of the pond.

I was resistant to the name change but don't really mind it too much now. I kind of like unique names for birds in oddball families, like Zeledonia or Spindalis.
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Old Friday 27th December 2019, 11:49   #121
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I've had posts removed without warning or explanation in the past, why do you expect special treatment?

I hope your posts weren't racist?
I hope so too! But now I just don't know what's the reason, and I find that very annoying. When a post gets deleted and a moderator sends you a private message explaining why, at least that's some feedback. I feel that deleting posts without feedback is abusing your power as a moderator. That sounds harsh but it feels like that, really. I am even considering giving up on this forum just for that very reason.

I must admit after the first deletion, I wrote my second post more or less the same with some words that were already written in previous messages and could be a bit over the top for some, but as they weren't directed to someone, I feel I didn't offend someone personally. So I reposted it, just for the sake of finding out what would happen.

I would find it disturbing to have posts removed without warning or explanation, as it means a moderator thinks something you post is not in line with any rules / restriction / good practice / ... of a forum. So that is why I bother (but you don't?).

Anyway, in both of my previous posts I linked to what I think is an interesting article about common bird names. I link it again:
https://www.theguardian.com/environm...d-yellowhammer

And regarding the names of birds, I wrote in my previous post that I really like local names, as long as they do reveal something about the behavior, habitat, preferred tree or plant, or a local geographical name that gives insight in a biogeographic region. I could give many examples, from Cactus Canister over Bamboo foliage-gleaner, Munchique Wood-wren or Campina Thrush (I just randomly picked 4 but I have many better examples).
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Old Friday 27th December 2019, 13:58   #122
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I kind of like unique names for birds in oddball families, like Zeledonia or Spindalis.



Never heard anyone complain about Osprey, Ostrich, Rhea, Cassowary, Emu, Kiwi, either (AFAIK, none of them of English linguistic origin, too)
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Old Friday 27th December 2019, 18:33   #123
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Never heard anyone complain about Osprey, Ostrich, Rhea, Cassowary, Emu, Kiwi, either (AFAIK, none of them of English linguistic origin, too)
Indeed. Its amusing to hear the cries bemoaning the so-called erosion of the English language - in reality these and other words become English as soon as they are adopted.... just as every word in the language has done throughout history.
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Old Monday 30th December 2019, 11:24   #124
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I've seen the dutch list being brought up a few times in this thread, so as a Dutchman let me say something about this. Yes, there's a dutch world bird list and every species has a dutch common name. And absolutely nobody ever uses them outside of Europe. Even when we talk among ourselves in dutch, we use the english common names. There is no point in learning dutch names, because you are going to have to learn the English names anyway. All the field guides are in english, all the local guides speak english, pretty much all websites are in english. If you don't want to live in a tiny little bubble of ignorance where you can't participate with the rest of the world, of course you're forced to learn english!

Comparing the dutch list to the english list makes no sense.
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Old Monday 30th December 2019, 12:50   #125
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"Stan.", I agree on the part that English is the predominant language in the (Birding) World, and that we're forced to use it, when travelling, birding all over, but I disagree on the part/line of argument "There is no point in learning dutch names, ...", as I think you've misunderstood one of the main reasons for local World lists (in any language), as such lists aren't only, primarily aimed at Birdwatchers.

A local list (like in Dutch, or Swedish, etc.) is an important tool when writing/translating papers, books, alt. subtitling Nature films, when reaching out to a wider audience, in Popular science. Without such list you would read an article, or watch a nature film on TV, with foreign names intertwined, and this wouldn't catch the interest of the general public, certainly not people without binoculars.

On a personal level, as an Author of Children's and Beginner's books, I truly appreciate there's a list of Swedish names (for all the Birds of the World). Many of my (younger) readers, or listeners, doesn't understand a Word of English (nor any other language than their mother tongue).

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