• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Rhinocryptidae (2 Viewers)

I'm not sure what you mean by this. The fact is that S. gettyae and S. macropus are not the same thing, and the only reason they were thought to be is because no one had specimens to compare (and someone made a bit of a far-fetched leap in logic that this voice may belong to S. macropus. As it turns out, S. macropus has been the center of a lot of faulty identifications by field observers who were callus about putting names on populations... but that's another topic). This is yet *another* case where specimen material has proven to be key to untangling a taxonomic complex that would otherwise not be solved without scientific collecting.

I get it now - Field observers had "identified" this new bird as a southern relative of macropus (perhaps based on plumage, but perhaps false assumptions about size?), hence the labels on xeno-canto. It turns out to be nothing of the kind. I had assumed that it must be a big Scytalopus for the confusion even to have arisen in the first place!

cheers, alan
 
Scytalopus gettyae

Hosner, Robbins, Valqui & Peterson 2013. A new species of Scytalopus tapaculo (Aves: Passeriformes: Rhinocryptidae) from the Andes of central Peru. Wilson J Ornithol 125(2): 233–242. [abstract]
On NEOORN yesterday...
A question regarding the new Scytalopus from Peru

Hi all,

Maybe this has already been covered in this forum; my apologies if it has. Anyway, I just read the paper describing Scytalopus gettyae, and I was surprised that the introduction made it sound like the authors discovered that bird from scratch. I know for a fact that the taxon was known for years before their field work (and I had heard of it at least 3 years before their field work started), and that many observers had seen it, heard it, and commented on it being a new species before 2008. Yet the paper published made it sound like the authors genuinely discovered the new bird. I am curious if there is a reason for this, and why the ones who originally did find the bird weren't mentioned nor the history before the 2008 field work. I find it disturbing that many observations prior to the field work weren't discussed; it is a disincentive for amateurs to report their observations of potentially new species and strikes me as borderline unethical. I would like the hear the thoughts of the community here at large and see if I am off base in thinking this.

Andrew Spencer
Centennial, CO, USA and Quito, Ecuador
 
'Millpo Tapaculo'

I'm quite sure that the bird described here [Scytalopus gettyae] is *not* the 'Millpo Tapaculo,' but rather a bird that has been identified by various birders visiting the forests of the Satipo Road as 'Satipo form of Large-footed Tapaculo.' Notice that it is part of the S. latrans group (not the S. magellanicus group, as is the Millpo), and that it is from forests at 2400-3200m elevation or so, not treeline (>3200m).
Presumably these comments in Hosner et al 2013 refer to the 'Millpo Tapaculo'...
A small, pale Scytalopus in the magellanicus complex occurs at high elevations above treeline in Junín, although its taxonomic affinities (along with populations in Pasco and Ayacucho) are unclear and awaiting revision (Krabbe and Schulenberg 2003, Lloyd 2004, Schulenberg et al. 2007). We tentatively refer to this taxon as S. cf. altirostris/simonsi; it is similar to allopatric S. altirostris (Amazonas south to Huánuco, Peru) and S. simonsi (Cuzco south to central Bolivia) in appearance and ecology but differs from each in song.
Fig 3 shows a spectrogram of the song, and Table 1 gives elevational distribution (3,300–3,800 m) and morphological measurements based on two specimens – almost a description!
 
Last edited:
Richard, I think you're over-simplifying here - see the discussion on xeno-canto under "latest news" about how recordings by non-authors on xeno-canto were mis-described in the paper:
http://www.xeno-canto.org/

I don't know the story here. But I have noted though that the approach of some peer reviewers and 'big rated journals' to description papers is not condusive to including details of history of a discovery in a paper of this nature. This is one reason why taxonomic and description papers are, again in my view, better published in a journal like Bull BOC which will publish history and background details. I have been told sometimes that details of "who found things when" are "not relevant" and should be deleted. Some journals and reviewers only want to see published some methods (solely of the authors), results and conclusions. In the context of a new species, which is principally write-up of an act of discovery and nomenclature (even if also a scientific piece involving testing of hypotheses about relations), this does not seem appropriate.
 
Scytalopus sylvestris

Hosner, Robbins, Valqui & Peterson 2013. A new species of Scytalopus tapaculo (Aves: Passeriformes: Rhinocryptidae) from the Andes of central Peru. Wilson J Ornithol 125(2): 233–242. [abstract]

...S. sylvestris Taczanowksi [sic] 1874.—One name, S. sylvestris, described from Maraynioc and Pallaypampa, Junı´n, was introduced validly but is not currently recognized (Gill and Donsker 2012, Remsen et al. 2012)...

...Scytalopus sylvestris (not currently recognized) was described from the west side of the Rı´o Tulumayo in Maraynioc, Junı´n (Taczanowski 1874) and may refer to central Peruvian populations currently considered S. parvirostris (Taczanowski 1884, Krabbe and Schulenberg 1997)...
 
Scytalopus gettyae

NEOORN...
Re: A question regarding the new Scytalopus from Peru

Hi all, again,

Before I let this die, I just want to ask the community at large about this issue. I've only received two replies, back channel, about this, each having an opposing view on it. I'm not trying to stir up trouble, I just really want to hear what the ornithological community thinks about how papers of this type are written and presented. And in case it wasn't clear from my first email, I make absolutely no claim about discovering this bird myself, or discovering anything novel about this bird - I just know who did discover it, and that person received no mention in the paper.

Andrew Spencer
Quito, Ecuador
Hello Neoorners,

There are probably a lot of people in this forum better placed to answer Andrew's question, but since it has remained remarkably silent, I am giving some input from my side.

To my knowledge there is no set of guiding rules about this issue, but from what I have seen published over the years I can however deduct the following:

- In many cases the existence of a new taxon is suspected long before it is described.
- In many cases birders bring in the first clues that we might be dealing with a new taxon, especially since voice has become such an important indicator of speciation, and voice knowledge and documentation has greatly improved among birders
- Voice alone is however considered insufficient to prove a new taxon. Morphological details, habits, nesting,... and ideally DNA should complete the overall picture to provide convincing proof
- The first person(s) who gather(s) all this information are generally the ones describing the new taxon. They have usually a scientific background, as collecting, DNA extraction and statistical analysis requires specific resources and knowledge
- When we are dealing with a genuinely new taxon (we are not talking here about uplifting subspecies to species level), the discovery of the new taxon is usually described.
- The discovery focuses on how the holotype was collected, and in the case the existence of the taxon was known prior to the collection of the holotype, this is also explained. In this paragraph, it is not uncommon to find the names of birders who had found, tape recorded or observed the taxon on previous dates.
- The person(s) describing the new taxon are entitled to give the scientific and English name
- Whether the new taxon is generally accepted by the community depends on how convincing the description is. For the Neotropics the authority of the SACC has grown over the years, and their judgment is generally accepted
(I am using here the terms 'birder' and 'scientist' as two extremes in a continuum, assuming that everybody knows there is no 'John sixpack' or whatever it is called in the US ;-)...)

When it comes to the description of the new Scytalopus from Peru, I start with saying I am probably biased, as I had also experience with this taxon prior to the collection of the holotype, and e.g. good quality recordings of both song and call taped prior to the collection date were published in my Peru sound collection (2009).
Therefore, the following is just an opinion.
- When reading the article my first reaction was similar to Andrew's. The knowledge of this taxon prior to the collection date seems to be absent. Either the authors were not aware of this knowledge (hard to believe as this would be lack of preparation when setting up an expedition), or it was largely ignored. (E.g., it is said song was totally unknown for a Scytalopus, in 'Distribution' the recordings in xeno-canto are mentioned, but it is not said many are prior to the collection date, etc.)
- The merit of the authors was I believe rather to discover that besides this taxon also S. macropus occurs in the same area, which had not been confirmed by birders.
- I would therefore personally have preferred to read more information on how the taxon was gradually discovered throughout the years as the Satipo valley opened up to birders and scientists alike, and how it was thanks to the recent fieldwork it was discovered this taxon is not closely related to S. macropus. This would have acknowledged the birders who started exploration over a decade ago, and would have confirmed the specific value of scientific field work in unraveling difficult issues. A missed chance for a 'best of both worlds' story.

Bringing up this topic may seem superfluous.
I remember however a case a few years ago in which a new taxon was named in a newspaper or magazine prior to its scientific description, raising the hair of many scientists.
Most birders are careful when dealing with potentially new taxa, often naming a bird for over a decade Scytalopus spec. nov. ... and refraining to write anything about it that may look like a formal description.
I believe in return, they should equally be respected for the exploring and discovering contribution they make.
Fortunately, the discussed article is rather an unfortunate exception...

Just like Andrew, I am obviously interested to hear if this is in line with the mainstream opinion of the community.

Kind regards,

Peter Boesman
Tangara AT skynet.be
 
Richard, thanks for posting

I agree with the views of Peter and Andrew. The paper's authors have done a good job in resolving this mystery but surely the paper would have benefitted from more background information on the discovery and an acknowledgement of the earlier contributions of others?

cheers, alan
 
Scytalopus gettyae

NEOORN today...
Re: A question regarding the new Scytalopus from Peru

Andrew, Peter, and the broader NEOORN community:

Please forgive my tardy response; I have been traveling recently and have been away from email.

This message is in regard to our recent description of Scytalopus gettyae, published in the Wilson Journal of Ornithology, the question being whether we gave sufficient credit to pre-existing information on the taxon. First of all, we regret if anyone feels that his/her role has been slighted. Our intent was to produce a straight-forward, scientific description of a taxon in an extremely confusing group. In light of this confusion, we included only information that we could personally verify: our own primary data from specimens and recordings, as well as several recordings contributed to Xeno-Canto. We apologize if such high standards for data quality are perceived as overlooking contributions by the birding community, this was unintentional.

Readers will note that no 'discovery story' is provided in our description. We made no claim that we were the first to notice a Scytalopus with a distinctive song in Junin; we simply stated that we made sound recordings and collected voucher specimens that formed the basis of our paper. On the contrary, we cited recordings attributable to S. gettyae (on Xeno-Canto) from 2003, five years before our own work in the area. In addition to citing the recordings, the names of the recordists are listed in the Acknowledgments section of the paper, a fact that has not been mentioned by those criticizing our work. These recordings were previously identified as S. macropus on Xeno-Canto, a species that is sympatric with and was been confused with S. gettyae before our description. Thus our work in the Satipo Valley clarified the vocalizations, morphology and distribution of both the new species and S. macropus in Junin.

We greatly value and appreciate explorations by the broader ornithological community, and the sharing of information via online sound archives (Xeno-canto, Macaulay Library, AVoCET) and eBird; we contribute to such archives ourselves.

Our apologies to Peter Boesman, we were unaware that there were recordings attributable to S. gettyae in his Birds of Peru MP3 Sound Collection, we were too focused on open access recordings and overlooked commercial productions.

We encourage anyone interested in S. gettyae to read the original paper, if anyone does not have access, please contact me off-list (hosner AT ku.edu).

Sincerely,

Peter Hosner, Mark Robbins, Town Peterson

------------------------
Pete Hosner
Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
Natural History Museum & Biodiversity Institute, Dyche Hall
1345 Jayhawk Blvd.
University of Kansas
Lawrence, KS 66044
785.331.7583
 
"Millpo Tapaculo" is not the same as Junin Tapaculo. Millpo Tapaculo is apparently restricted to the jalca (say 3500m+) and was found quite a bit further north in Pasco.
Check out xeno-canto for sounds of presumed 'Millpo' (not 100% of course since it has not been described) http://www.xeno-canto.org/species/Scytalopus-sp.nov.Millpo and Junin Tapaculo http://www.xeno-canto.org/species/Scytalopus-gettyae: quite different.

There are more undescribed taxa of Tapaculo in Peru, so better not assume anything :)
 
Last edited:
MAURÍCIO, G. N., ARETA, J. I., BORNSCHEIN, M. R. and REIS, R. E. (2012), Morphology-based phylogenetic analysis and classification of the family Rhinocryptidae (Aves: Passeriformes). Zoological Journal of the Linnean Society, 166: 377–432. doi: 10.1111/j.1096-3642.2012.00847.x
Abstract

Maurício, Giovanni Nachtigall, 2010. Análise filogenética da família rhinocryptidae (aves: passeriformes) com base em caracteres morfológicos.
Thesis.

Abstract and PDF here
 
Upper Magdalena Tapaculo

Donegan, Avendaño & Lambert 2013. A new tapaculo related to Scytalopus rodriguezi from Serranía de los Yariguíes, Colombia. Bull BOC 133(4): 256–271.
SUMMARY.—Upper Magdalena Tapaculo Scytalopus rodriguezi was described (in 2005) as restricted to the headwaters of the Magdalena Valley in dpto. Huila, Colombia. Here we describe a new but related taxon from the Serranía de los Yariguíes, dpto. Santander, Colombia, c.580 km to the north, which differs in its darker dorsal coloration, shorter tail, smaller body, lower mass and lower pitched song with reduced frequency bandwidth in its notes.
...
Scytalopus rodriguezi yariguiorum, subsp. nov.
...
Taxonomic rank.—S. r. yariguiorum should be treated as meeting the requirements of subspecies concepts for allopatric populations (Remsen 2010) on account of its different biometrics, plumage and song from nominate S. rodriguezi. Isler et al. (1998) and Helbig et al. (2002) suggested treating distinctive allopatric populations as species or subspecies depending on the degree of differentiation compared to that between related species that are sympatric. Adopting such an approach, there is a reasonable case to rank S. r. yariguiorum as a species. ...
 
Donegan, Avendaño & Lambert 2013. A new tapaculo related to Scytalopus rodriguezi from Serranía de los Yariguíes, Colombia. Bull BOC 133(4): 256–271.
That's the form at Cerulean Warbler Reserve: the "Upper Magdalena Tapaculo" on the lists of anyone who's been to Colombia.
Something else for trip no. 3 then...
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top