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A Ring to Far (1 Viewer)

chris butterworth said:
The problem is, without colour ringing, we'd know very little about waders ( unless they were caught time and time again). It was always assumed the Sanderling that used the East Atlantic Flyway, and overwintered in Europe were Siberian breeders but, through colour ringing, it turns out they are from NE Greenland and no-ones quite sure where Siberian birds winter. Colour ringing has also helped to show that Sanderling can be very loyal to wintering sites, returning year after year. Last winter, at Hoylake, UK, 3 Sanderling colour ringed in the same small area of NE Greenland were found to be still together, in the same flock, on the wintering grounds. Something that had never been recorded before. Without this kind of knowledge there is no way you can devise a unified plan to protect species. All scientific knowledge is gained by techniques that are invasive, in some way or another, and colour ringing is producing so much information with no known deleterious effects that it would be doing wildlife a disservice, to say the least, to stop.

Chris
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On the other hand, we know that sanderling summer at site a, b and c, migrate through site d, e and f, and winter at sites g, h and i, so protecting sanderling would require conserving these sites and while I'm sure it's very interesting to know which routes between a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, and i are taken, I don't see that it adds anything to the conservation.
 
Trystan said:
=15!/12! = 2730

I dont know how many knot would be ringed typically but if this isnt enough then the number could be increased by using more colours and by using the same colour combinations but sometimes 2 on the left leg and sometimes 2 on the right..
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There is a (low) limit to the number of colours manufactured, and so available. Also, some of these often cannot be used as they are too similar at a distance, so that limits you further. Rings cost money, and these voluntary schemes would be saving money if they could get away with less.

But I ask the question again - if the bird wasn't bothered, why should you be?
 
Trystan said:
On the other hand, we know that sanderling summer at site a, b and c, migrate through site d, e and f, and winter at sites g, h and i, so protecting sanderling would require conserving these sites and while I'm sure it's very interesting to know which routes between a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, and i are taken, I don't see that it adds anything to the conservation.
Click to expand...

Of course it adds. It's not just about finding the route, it's also about constant monitoring to assess survival during each of those legs. With constant changes in the environment on these routes (climate change, industrialisation, changes in food availability etc etc.) there are constant potential threats.

The classic example is House Sparrow. The BTO used to tell people not to ring them, because it was 'a waste of rings' and they 'didn't do anything interesting'. But boy, don't we wish we had that information now, to measure against the decline?

You need to know what 'normal' looks like in order to spot a problem, and you can't spot a problem if you don't keep looking.
 
I don't mean to be naive but what information would the rings on the sparrows have provided, we already know what the problems are and we aren't doing anything about them.
 
Trystan said:
I don't mean to be naive but what information would the rings on the sparrows have provided, we already know what the problems are and we aren't doing anything about them.
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Survival, dispersal, local movements, behaviour.

If there had been some colour-ringing studies of sparrows in the 1970s then we'd now know how a normal healthy population 'worked'. We'd be able to compare it to today and see if more/less juveniles or adults were surviving (pointing at where birds were being lost), we'd know if the problem was lack of recruitment from immigration, we'd know if life spans had declined, or if breeding adults were disappearing at a critical point (which could hint at why).

We don't know what the problems are for sparrows, which is why the Independent's £5000 prize has not yet been won. Studies (including colour-ringing) are still ongoing, but they're a little hamstrung by the fact that they donm't know what they're looking for and don't know if what they're seeing is normal or not. If we had colour-ringing data from the 1970s it would have been a godsend now.
 
Originally Posted by SueO View Post

I think the rings are obscene and the Cuckoos and Ospreys flying around with satellite backpacks strapped to them are victims of animal cruelty. Just my opinion.


birdboybowley said:
Weird opinion......
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Yeah, it's so much less weird to think it's perfectly fine to glue solar panels with a long antennae to birds' backs. I'm OK with my weirdness. Sorry you and too many others are so normal.
 
jtwood said:
I photographed this Knot in Shetland this week with 6 rings on it.
I feel this is way to many and must increase the chances of the bird being caught in fishing Line etc plus the shear discomfort of living its life with so much Bling on its Legs.
I know much useful information is gained from bird ringing but to fit 6 rings on a common species like Knot is it really necessary?
Your views would be appreciated.
Jim Wood
Click to expand...

BTW, I was just expressing views as the poster asked. ;)
Weird Sue
 
Many thanks to you all for your input, Some good points raised, I also posted this on our local website so have had a lot of differing responses. I still feel that this Knot just has two many rings why a metal ring when all the information can be obtained from the colour rings?
Taken all of the comments and a bit of research bird ringing is well worthwhile but the welfare of the bird and a bit common sense should be exercised at all times.
As far a Chris comment that there is no down side is not quite true research done in America and Australia has found that certain species have suffered death or disease problems from some plastic rings, BTO has released a paper highlighting what rings should not be used on certain species but they are only guidelines.
Despite the downside I now look at sensible ringing in a favourable light.
Many thanks Jim
 
SueO said:
Yeah, it's so much less weird to think it's perfectly fine to glue solar panels with a long antennae to birds' backs. I'm OK with my weirdness. Sorry you and too many others are so normal.
Click to expand...

Maybe not 'normal' but does it really bother the birds?? It would seem not - for instance with cuckoos, we have learned so much in the past two years alone as to where our 'Sussex' cuckoos fly to and from on their winter migration. See here:

http://www.sos.org.uk/follow-sussex-on-his-journey.html

Fascinating and helpful information that could never been gleaned any other way. So if the cuckoo can breed, feed and then fly halfway across Africa with a satellite tag on it then I'm sure it isn't that phased - you seem to be more upset.
Animal cruelty.....a bit of a harsh statement
 
jtwood said:
I still feel that this Knot just has two many rings why a metal ring when all the information can be obtained from the colour rings?
Click to expand...

You have to use a metal ring on any bird colour-ringed - it's the law. It's alsoa good idea, as sometimes colour rings get lost or fade (you'd only know this through recaptures of colour-ringed birds and then checking the metal ring). Metal rings are the insurance 'fail safe'.

They're put above the ankle to keep them away from the colours - they can sometimes look like a colour ring. Although sometimes they're used as part of the combination. Ringing avove the ankle is standard in many long-legged species, whether colour-ringed or not (or Knot?).

Surely it is only 'too many' when it interferes with the bird to the point that it can't behave normally? If the bird is living naturally, then why should it offend you that it's wearing 3, 4, 5, or 6 rings? If you flip that thought around - how many rings do you think it 'should' have, and what do you base that on?
 
Hi Trystan,
i'm sorry but i think you're mistaken here unless i've misunderstood the scenario you're using; if you have 5 colours and 3 positions (lower left, upper left and right) then there are 125 permutations (5x5x5) not 2730.

You have 5 possibilities at lower left and 5 possibilities for upper left, making 25 permuations for the left leg. For each of those permutations you then have 5 possibilities for the right leg.

your permutation formula is anyhow for scenarios where you're not allowed to repeat; in this case then there would be just 60 permutations (5x4x3) as in your formula n should be 5 (the number of colours of rings as you say) not 15

this is quite simple to demonstrate using a quick thought experiment as you are essentially suggesting it would be possible to combine the digits 1,2,3,4 and 5 into 2730 different 3 digit numbers and we already know that even with all 10 digits available there are only 1000 different 3 digit numbers

cheers
James,

p.s. Mark, the two legs thing doesn't double the possible permutations, unless the rings are either all on the left leg or all on the right leg. I was assuming even numbers of rings would be split evenly across the two legs, while for odd numbers the odd ring could go on either leg (doubling the permutations) - if you don't stick to these rules then the numbers of permutations will be larger, hence the plusses in my numbers

Trystan said:
The formula for permutations is n! / (n!-k!) where n is the number of options (i.e the colours of rings) and k is the number of positions (lets say 3, two on the left and one on the right leg to make the maths easier)

The order is important here, arranging the same colours in a different location would identify a different individual so it is the permutation formula above which is to be used.

If you were to use 5 colours (red, blue, green, yellow, white) and theres no reason not to use more, and each colour can be used more than once per bird, that means your value n = 15 (pick any 3 from rrr, bbb, ggg, yyy, www)

=15!/12! = 2730

I dont know how many knot would be ringed typically but if this isnt enough then the number could be increased by using more colours and by using the same colour combinations but sometimes 2 on the left leg and sometimes 2 on the right..
Click to expand...
 
All I know is that I calculated that using 4 rings and with 4 different colours to play with, I came up with 241 possible combinations. I'll even show my workings if I have to ...


;)
 
James Lowther said:
p.s. Mark, the two legs thing doesn't double the possible permutations, unless the rings are either all on the left leg or all on the right leg. I was assuming even numbers of rings would be split evenly across the two legs, while for odd numbers the odd ring could go on either leg (doubling the permutations) - if you don't stick to these rules then the numbers of permutations will be larger, hence the plusses in my numbers
Click to expand...

Whatever combinations you have, you can double by simply switching legs. So every combination has a mirror. It gets more complex if you have a year code on one leg and an individual code on another, which you can switch. Then you also have above and below the ankle.
 
@James - Thanks James, yes, I can see that my scenario was flawed.

@Alf - I missed your post yesterday about the bird not being bothered. I think thats the crux of the debate really, how do you know it's not bothered? I get irritated by my wedding ring.

Also@Alf - Thanks for the sparrow information, I still think that the problems with sparrow decline have been summed up in the sparrowhawk thread, although not by the OP! It's just not that it can be proved scientifically, at least by those forwarding the theories/observations here.
 
AlfArbuthnot said:
Whatever combinations you have, you can double by simply switching legs. So every combination has a mirror. It gets more complex if you have a year code on one leg and an individual code on another, which you can switch. Then you also have above and below the ankle.
Click to expand...

Hi Alf,
i don't think that is right, you calculate the number of permutations using a fixed order, e.g. for 4 rings your 4 fixed positions could be lower left, upper left, lower right, upper right.

so if you have
lower left - red
upper left - white
lower right - blue
upper right - yellow

the reverse is already covered by one of your existing permutations i.e.
lower left - blue
upper left - yellow
lower right - red
upper right - white

as i said if your positions aren't fixed then you will have more permutations

cheers,
james
 
Trystan said:
On the other hand, we know that sanderling summer at site a, b and c, migrate through site d, e and f, and winter at sites g, h and i, so protecting sanderling would require conserving these sites and while I'm sure it's very interesting to know which routes between a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, and i are taken, I don't see that it adds anything to the conservation.
Click to expand...

The fact that new questions are arising from these schemes isn't adding to conservation? The start of any conservation comes from knowledge of the species in question, and knowing that that knowledge isn't complete. To claim "We know A, B and C, so we don't need to investigate further" is completely contrary to any science base endeavour and more akin to the creationist mantra of "We have all the answers in our holy book so don't bother investigating any more". To utilise one of the species I mentioned. The site fidelity of individual Sanderling, the possibility that Sanderling from small areas of the wider breeding area may remain in close proximity throughout the year (even the remote possibility that pairs may last longer than a single breeding season), these are answers, and questions, that have arisen out of CR schemes and scientific enquiry.

Chris

p.s. Those who are trying to work out how many combinations of colour ring are possible - you've not factored in the fact that each colour, never mind which leg it's on, has to be doubled - flagged colour rings. :t:

C
 
dantheman said:
Just out of interest, is the metal ring above the knee? Is that normal?
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If you mean is it on the tibia, above the ankle, then yes. Above the 'knee' would be out of sight.

As for normal, it depends on the ringing scheme. Some of them ring waders on the tarsus, others on the tibia.
 
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