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Eastern Stonechat sp in Norfolk - Breaking news from RBA (3.03pm 19 Oct)

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Old Sunday 28th October 2018, 19:21   #76
Chris Gooddie
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The Swinister Hoswick bird October 2017 has been DNA proven Maura
Hi Periwinkle, I guess that's the same bird Paul has listed as "2017 - Sandwick" as a confirmed maurus above.
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Old Sunday 28th October 2018, 20:28   #77
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The Swinister Hoswick bird October 2017 has been DNA proven Maura
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Hi Periwinkle, I guess that's the same bird Paul has listed as "2017 - Sandwick" as a confirmed maurus above.
Although it is not clear whether I linked photos of the right bird as it is suggested two different birds were present during the month with the other appearing in the report as unassigned:-

https://www.rarebirdalert.co.uk/Real...?SpeciesID=863

All the best
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Old Sunday 28th October 2018, 21:35   #78
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Just wondering did the Trimley Marshes SWT (October 13) bird go down as a Eastern Stonechat sp or was was pinned to species, could't find the information on birdguides
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Old Sunday 28th October 2018, 21:50   #79
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Just wondering did the Trimley Marshes SWT (October 13) bird go down as a Eastern Stonechat sp or was was pinned to species, could't find the information on birdguides
There are only 15 accepted of which 5 are Siberian, 7 are Caspian and 3 are Stejneger's.

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1913 - Fair Isle (maurus)
2015 - Orfordness (maurus)
2016 - Fair Isle (maurus)
2017 - Sandwick (maurus)
2017 - Halstow Marsh (maurus)

1985 - Porthgwarra (hemprichii)
1993 - Landguard (hemprichii)
2006 - Virkie (hemprichii)
2013 - Agnes (hemprichii)
2014 - Fair Isle (hemprichii)
2016 - Titchfield Haven (hemprichii)
2016 - St Mary's (hemprichii)

2012 - Portland (stejnegeri)
2016 - Landguard (stejnegeri)
2016 - Spurn (stejnegeri)
If it wasn't a Caspian or DNA'd in the last few years, it is not accepted to species.

All the best
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Old Sunday 28th October 2018, 22:29   #80
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Although it is not clear whether I linked photos of the right bird as it is suggested two different birds were present during the month with the other appearing in the report as unassigned:-

https://www.rarebirdalert.co.uk/Real...?SpeciesID=863

All the best

The Hoswick bird was earlier in the month than the Sandwick one - 2 different birds I believe.

https://twitter.com/vicount_biscuit/...255315456?s=21

Adam Archer sent a sample to the good professor which was confirmed as Maurus
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Old Sunday 28th October 2018, 22:54   #81
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The Hoswick bird was earlier in the month than the Sandwick one - 2 different birds I believe.

https://twitter.com/vicount_biscuit/...255315456?s=21

Adam Archer sent a sample to the good professor which was confirmed as Maurus
Many thanks.

The BBRC dates are:-
08.10.17-22.10.17 - Sandwick 1CY male S. m. maurus DNA analysis
24.10.17-27.10.17 - Sandwick 1CY S maurus/stejnegeri

I am not sure I reconcile the photo from 08.10.17 on twitter from which the sample was obtained with the one after a ten day gap on the RBA website on 18.10.17.

https://www.rarebirdalert.co.uk/Real...?SpeciesID=863

But both or indeed all three birds look pretty consistent as to type even if clearly at least two birds are involved.

All the best
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Old Sunday 28th October 2018, 23:11   #82
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Many thanks.

The BBRC dates are:-
08.10.17-22.10.17 - Sandwick 1CY male S. m. maurus DNA analysis
24.10.17-27.10.17 - Sandwick 1CY S maurus/stejnegeri

I am not sure I reconcile the photo from 08.10.17 on twitter from which the sample was obtained with the one after a ten day gap on the RBA website on 18.10.17.

https://www.rarebirdalert.co.uk/Real...?SpeciesID=863

But both or indeed all three birds look pretty consistent as to type even if clearly at least two birds are involved.

All the best
The first bird did reappear 10 days later in same place

https://twitter.com/vicount_biscuit/...105780738?s=21
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Old Sunday 28th October 2018, 23:15   #83
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The first bird did reappear 10 days later in same place

https://twitter.com/vicount_biscuit/...105780738?s=21
Many thanks
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Old Monday 29th October 2018, 20:43   #84
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the 'Siberian Chiffchaff' has been my sine qua non for the past twenty-five years... I've now withdrawn from the debate.
Having said that, I did enjoy one I came across in full song for twenty minutes at Porthellick today!
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Old Monday 29th October 2018, 21:18   #85
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Having said that, I did enjoy one I came across in full song for twenty minutes at Porthellick today!
Well we all have our foibles....... Chiffchaffs best avoided. A friend had this bird at Ham Wall today - https://twitter.com/howardtaffs1/sta...95117041254400

All the best
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Old Monday 29th October 2018, 21:36   #86
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Sounds like a ‘sweeooo’ chiff of the variety where the call is actually made from two upsweeps given very close to one another - as opposed to an upsweep that then descends as in ‘classic sweeoo’.
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Old Tuesday 30th October 2018, 00:39   #87
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Sounds like a ‘sweeooo’ chiff of the variety where the call is actually made from two upsweeps given very close to one another - as opposed to an upsweep that then descends as in ‘classic sweeoo’.
Many thanks
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Old Wednesday 7th November 2018, 15:49   #88
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I wonder when we can expect an analysis of the stonechat droppings?
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Old Wednesday 7th November 2018, 16:18   #89
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I wonder when we can expect an analysis of the stonechat droppings?
The good Doc Collinson tweeted a couple of days ago - apparently the sequencing will be done this week.

I think we need to start some kind of crowdfunding campaign for a Doc's apprentice - who on earth will resolve these IDs if/when he retires?? Our lists are at stake here, this is important (add smiley face...)
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Old Wednesday 7th November 2018, 16:22   #90
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The good Doc Collinson tweeted a couple of days ago - apparently the sequencing will be done this week.

I think we need to start some kind of crowdfunding campaign for a Doc's apprentice - who on earth will resolve these IDs if/when he retires?? Our lists are at stake here, this is important (add smiley face...)
He had a student apprentice with him at Birdfair when I saw him.......
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Old Wednesday 7th November 2018, 16:25   #91
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He had a student apprentice with him at Birdfair when I saw him.......
Phew! Perhaps we can ensure there is a collection bucket at each contentious ID twitch. Birders can throw in a few quid to cover the costs, I'm sure it will work well. If nothing else, said bird may save us some time and leave a deposit in the bucket too....
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Old Wednesday 7th November 2018, 17:23   #92
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Phew! Perhaps we can ensure there is a collection bucket at each contentious ID twitch. Birders can throw in a few quid to cover the costs, I'm sure it will work well. If nothing else, said bird may save us some time and leave a deposit in the bucket too....
I have vaguely bad memories associating a sorcerer's apprentice and buckets.... best make sure this one has his postgraduate degree from Unseen University when Doc Martin pulls off his rubber gloves for the last time.

John
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Old Wednesday 7th November 2018, 17:56   #93
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I have vaguely bad memories associating a sorcerer's apprentice and buckets.... best make sure this one has his postgraduate degree from Unseen University when Doc Martin pulls off his rubber gloves for the last time.

John

Would my Doctorate Adamus cum Flabello Dulci, from that esteemed educational establisment be qualification enough to carry the bucket?
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Old Wednesday 7th November 2018, 18:11   #94
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Would my Doctorate Adamus cum Flabello Dulci, from that esteemed educational establisment be qualification enough to carry the bucket?
Despite being honorary I'm sure it will be more than adequate (that's a hell of a thing to make a man look up!)

John
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Old Wednesday 7th November 2018, 18:46   #95
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Despite being honorary I'm sure it will be more than adequate (that's a hell of a thing to make a man look up!)

John
I'm glad I'm not alone in having to look that up John, thought I was going to have to bullshit having known what it meant for a moment there..........
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Old Wednesday 7th November 2018, 19:21   #96
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Pratchett merchantised them, you had to take a stiff test.
I got the BF which I have a cerificate allowing me to post-nomial.
I then took the Doctor of Sweet Danny Adams a few years after.
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Old Friday 9th November 2018, 07:56   #97
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Hopefully we find out today !
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Old Friday 9th November 2018, 11:46   #98
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Over on the taxonomy forum, courtesy of Laurent Raty:

'Abstract
The common stonechat Saxicola torquatus traditionally was considered as a polytypic species widely distributed in Africa, Europe and Asia. Recently, several authors have suggested that this formerly single species needs to be split into several distinct species composing the Saxicola torquatus complex based on mitochondrial markers. However, mitochondrial DNA alone is not sufficient for the evaluation of species status. In this paper, we reviewed the taxonomy of Northern Eurasian taxa from the complex based on morphometrics, plumage, song and alarm calls. The morphological and vocal data clearly matched the phylogroups reconstructed from mitochondrial DNA sequences, and separated Northern Eurasian taxa of the Saxicola torquatus complex into three groups: rubicola, maurus and stejnegeri. We proposed the species status for these three groups: European stonechat Saxicola rubicola, eastern stonechat Saxicola maurus and Japanese stonechat Saxicola stejnegeri. Among them, S. stejnegeri is a cryptic species as it cannot be distinguished by morphometrics and by worn spring plumage from S. maurus, but differs noticeably by male song.'

cheers, alan
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