Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Zeiss - Always on the lookout for something special – Shop now

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Always used 10x but thinking about switching to 8x

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old Sunday 15th April 2018, 09:45   #76
Troubador
Moderator
 
Troubador's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 8,242
Quote:
Originally Posted by coaltit View Post
Yes its made life a lot easier, cheaper, and convenient too Came just right for me, all the big hasselblad cameras and their Ilk where did they end up.
Hi Coalie

Hasselblad still does medium format but now in digital form:https://www.hasselblad.com/

Lee
Troubador is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 15th April 2018, 09:50   #77
Troubador
Moderator
 
Troubador's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 8,242
Quote:
Originally Posted by black crow View Post

I had two aunts but the're long dead.
Did they ever catch sight of an eagle perched on a 10 storey building?
We had better get back to birds at least....
Lee
Troubador is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 15th April 2018, 16:16   #78
Canip
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Nordschweiz
Posts: 383
Should we then talk about Thamnophilidae, or Antbirds?
Canip is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 15th April 2018, 16:19   #79
Troubador
Moderator
 
Troubador's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 8,242
Black Crow already mentioned Auntbirds....

And wasn't there a battle between the Greeks and the Trojans at Thamniphilidae?

I think Greeks won after a penalty shoot-out.

Lee
Troubador is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 15th April 2018, 16:19   #80
Foss
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: San Diego
Posts: 97
Great point about tracking moving targets!
Foss is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 16th April 2018, 06:49   #81
Canip
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Nordschweiz
Posts: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troubador View Post
Black Crow already mentioned Auntbirds....

And wasn't there a battle between the Greeks and the Trojans at Thamniphilidae?

I think Greeks won after a penalty shoot-out.

Lee
so right - the Greek team was called The Eagles.

Last edited by Canip : Monday 16th April 2018 at 06:52.
Canip is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 16th April 2018, 08:10   #82
Troubador
Moderator
 
Troubador's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 8,242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canip View Post
so right - the Greek team was called The Eagles.


Lee
Troubador is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 16th April 2018, 08:14   #83
Troubador
Moderator
 
Troubador's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 8,242
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14Goudvink View Post
Besides offering a greater FOV 8 power bins also offer a greater depth of view, which means much less (re)focussing when chasing birds at close range. I normally use 8 power bins but have lately been using 10X and this is one important difference I noticed.

George

I agree George and this, and fov, is why I moved from 10x to 8x after about 25 years of using 10x.

Lee
Troubador is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 16th April 2018, 13:41   #84
pshute
Registered User

 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 857
I haven't read this whole thread, so apologies if this has already been asked. Have any of you actually tried a test with 8x vs 10x? Eg how many metres away can you read a page of newspaper? The comments I read before I jumped to the end seem to be mostly about impressions of the view, rather than actual tests.
pshute is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 16th April 2018, 14:07   #85
black crow
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: ashland oregon
Posts: 2,056
I would imagine if you put them both (same quality and brand) stable on tripod, the 10x would easily outperform the 8x on detail at a distance. Otherwise why would anyone want the higher power since you give up a lot of FOV? If I'm wrong about this I'm going to be surprised.
__________________
Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno.
black crow is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 16th April 2018, 15:25   #86
Troubador
Moderator
 
Troubador's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 8,242
Quote:
Originally Posted by pshute View Post
I haven't read this whole thread, so apologies if this has already been asked. Have any of you actually tried a test with 8x vs 10x? Eg how many metres away can you read a page of newspaper? The comments I read before I jumped to the end seem to be mostly about impressions of the view, rather than actual tests.
It would be interesting to quantify the distance advantage a 10x has but high contrast stuff like black print on white paper is fairly rare in nature so a newpaper target might not be the best. And to do a fair assessment, as Black Crow has pointed out, you would need to tripod-mount the binos. Again this would give a result but if you hand-hold the binos when you go birding or nature observing, this tripod-aided result would probably not correlate with your hand-held experience. This is especially true if you consider that you would want to tripod-test the two magnifications on a day with no wind to tremble the tripod by different amounts during the duration of the test, and while this would aid a consistent test it wouldn't correspond to how the binos would perform in your hands on breezy or windy or gusty days. In all practical situations the 10x will have a longer 'reach' but also a correspondingly high tendency to tremble according to your hands and arms steadiness, wind strength and variability, heart rate and breathing (often depending on exertion) and what other loads there are on your body such as toting a back-pack or photographic gear or scope and tripod or all of these. So the distance advantage a 10x showed, mounted on a tripod, looking at a printed page, on a windless day is likely to be less in the field under normal birding conditions with hand-held binos.

Lee

Last edited by Troubador : Monday 16th April 2018 at 15:29.
Troubador is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 17th April 2018, 01:23   #87
pshute
Registered User

 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troubador View Post
It would be interesting to quantify the distance advantage a 10x has but high contrast stuff like black print on white paper is fairly rare in nature so a newpaper target might not be the best. And to do a fair assessment, as Black Crow has pointed out, you would need to tripod-mount the binos.
No, I was thinking just a hand held test. We're talking about which ones let you see better when birding, and most birding is with handheld binoculars. I'm interested in a true test of how shake reduces the advantage of increased magnification.

I suggested a reading test because it would be easier to set up and to quantify than with real birds.

The results would be different for everyone because we vary in how steady we can hold them.
pshute is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 17th April 2018, 02:04   #88
Kevin Conville
yardbirder
BF Supporter 2018
 
Kevin Conville's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: State of Chaos
Posts: 1,926
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermann View Post
Well, I think it all depends. When I carry a scope 8x or even 7x works nicely for me. However, when I don't carry a scope, I very much prefer 10x. I can still hold 10x well enough to get more detail than with 8x or 7x.

Hermann
For me, it's similar. The 8x32s go with me when I travel, carrying a scope, or a camera with a long lens.

Lately, when I don't have those things w/ me I prefer either 12s or 15s on a monopod. Hand holding the bigger bins is out of the question, but even when viewing up at birds in flight, the monopod acts as a Finnstick and allows a steadier hold. I do like the higher mag view for any study longer than a few moments.
__________________
my bird pics

Scott's Miracle Grow KILLING Birds, for Years!
read this: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=226714
Kevin Conville is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2018 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Tuesday 17th April 2018, 02:28   #89
dries1
Registered User
BF Supporter 2018
 
dries1's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Delaware
Posts: 1,205
Regarding hand held viewing - I get more detail with all my 8X glass......10X a few. Not so much for some former 10X glass I previously owned that I could not hold steady.

Andy W.
dries1 is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2018 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Tuesday 17th April 2018, 08:20   #90
Troubador
Moderator
 
Troubador's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 8,242
Quote:
Originally Posted by pshute View Post
No, I was thinking just a hand held test. We're talking about which ones let you see better when birding, and most birding is with handheld binoculars. I'm interested in a true test of how shake reduces the advantage of increased magnification.

I suggested a reading test because it would be easier to set up and to quantify than with real birds.

The results would be different for everyone because we vary in how steady we can hold them.
Agreed. Some folks find that high magnification binos that are heavier (up to a point) are easier to keep steady. I find Zeiss's SF 10x easier due to its unique balance. Probably there is a period when initially lifting up a 10x to the eye that we can hold it steady (unless we have just been seriously exerting ourselves and have strong heartbeat and breathing) and this steadiness erodes as fatigue of arms and shoulders sets in. Windy days exacerbate this. A Finn Stick can help or photographic monopod. I often used the latter before I got my SFs to view for extended periods when sitting down and waiting for Otters to appear.

Lee
Troubador is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 17th April 2018, 09:27   #91
Chris223
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: somewhere
Posts: 52
when i tried the 10X42 conquest with the 10.5X44 kowa and my kowa 8X32 the difference was obvious : Only very little difference in shaking movement between both kowa and a lot of more between the conquest and the both kowa !

I am absolutely sure that the reasons was the weight on the 10.5 kowa combined with large barrel (more like a double barrel grip).

Hand held view with the conquest is really not a pleasure to use, But with the kowa it was not a problem.
Chris223 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 17th April 2018, 10:02   #92
Murmur
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: South East Northumberland
Posts: 65
I'm another former long-standing 10x user who has shifted over to 8x in the last 18 months.

The initial reason for looking for a pair of 8x was to reduce weight when out walking. However, as I got a bargain on the Kowa Genesis 8x33, the optical improvement over my old 10x is such that the Kowas have become my main bins, with the old 10x being kept for occasional use when mostly in hides.

That said, the increase in light gathering, the better FOV and depth of field and reduced weight would be enough to make a pair of half decent 8x (as opposed to the very good ones I got) an every day carry.
Murmur is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 17th April 2018, 10:06   #93
black crow
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: ashland oregon
Posts: 2,056
I sold a 41 oz. pair of Swarovski (8x50) to a friend who is 70 and barely weighs 100 lb. I sold them because they were too heavy to hike with but she stares out her window at two owls in her owl boxes and says it's the very best views she's ever had in any binocular. She had decided she could hold a 10x steady and until I heard that I was trying to dissuade her but I've stopped that and she's ordered some 10x. I really hadn't paid much attention to those Swaros and rarely hand held them (monopod mounted) but now holding them I realize they are rock steady in hand compared to some of my much lighter 8x. I never had even considered the idea that a heavier binocular would be steadier. It was counter to my intuition on what should be the case. I sold her my monopod for them but she's barely used it.

Of course now she has a fractured wrist and it's come in handy.
__________________
Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno.

Last edited by black crow : Tuesday 17th April 2018 at 10:08.
black crow is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 17th April 2018, 10:11   #94
Troubador
Moderator
 
Troubador's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 8,242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris223 View Post
when i tried the 10X42 conquest with the 10.5X44 kowa and my kowa 8X32 the difference was obvious : Only very little difference in shaking movement between both kowa and a lot of more between the conquest and the both kowa !

I am absolutely sure that the reasons was the weight on the 10.5 kowa combined with large barrel (more like a double barrel grip).
But the Kowa 10x33 doesn't have the weight or large barrel of the Kowa 10.5x44.

Lee
Troubador is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 17th April 2018, 12:10   #95
Gijs van Ginkel
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: utrecht
Posts: 1,505
pshute, post 87,
The effect of magnification on image quality of handhold binoculars is very well investigated by Russian scientists and by Zeiss scientists, I have published some graphs and references on Birdforum some time ago, but if one is interested I could repeat it. One graph can be found in a review of published literature I have published on the WEB-site of House of Outdoor entitled "Color vision, brightness, resolution and contrast in binocular images" figure 39 (the paper is in English). You may be surprised by this graph, since it indicates that at magnifictions of 6-7x and more resolution rapidly declines when handhold. The Russian investigators reach the same conclusions.
Gijs van Ginkel
Gijs van Ginkel is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 17th April 2018, 13:55   #96
black crow
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: ashland oregon
Posts: 2,056
If so why the popularity of 10x when hand held? Is this psychologically another one of the bigger is better stories we seem to like/need to tell ourselves?
__________________
Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno.
black crow is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 17th April 2018, 14:27   #97
dries1
Registered User
BF Supporter 2018
 
dries1's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Delaware
Posts: 1,205
BC,

Good question.
I seem to see more 10X for sale, so this to me would indicate that 10X sells well, more popular. The other hobby which begins with H, tend to use 10X, not all of them but most of them.
I use the 10X for cruising the sky at night when clear. The 10X35 EII is to me a very easy glass to hold steady, along with the SE 10X42. The areas of the pics where you live are so open, as Bill said 10X is perfect for that expansive view (very, very nice scenery by the way). Where I live, it is more wooded, so 8X or even 7X is the preferred glass. When I am going an area overlooking open terrain, I always have a 10X to see that extra detail.

Andy W.
dries1 is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2018 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Tuesday 17th April 2018, 14:42   #98
Foss
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: San Diego
Posts: 97
Thanks for sharing the paper posted at House of Outdoor, Gijs van Ginkel. I downloaded it and will read it when time permits.
Jack
Foss is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 17th April 2018, 15:54   #99
Troubador
Moderator
 
Troubador's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 8,242
Quote:
Originally Posted by black crow View Post
If so why the popularity of 10x when hand held? Is this psychologically another one of the bigger is better stories we seem to like/need to tell ourselves?
For me when I started birding the answer to this was obvious. Binos are to bring things closer, 10x brings things closer than 8x, therefore 10x is better.

For many years now I have preferred 8x as a well-balanced compromise between magnification, field of view, depth of field and hand tremble.

But I use a 10x in special places.

Lee
Troubador is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 17th April 2018, 16:54   #100
Nixterdemus
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Central AR
Posts: 730
Here's an example of what one might gain at various magnifications.

https://www.opticsreviewer.com/image...nification.jpg

Betwixt the twain I'd prefer closer to the ten. Perhaps an 8.5X that's closer to nine.

As always, YMMV ...
__________________
Celestron M2 f/5.4 100mm ED-Manfrotto 516 fluid head w/140mm sliding plate

SLV 50* 4mm-- HD-60* 4.5mm-- UWA 82* 5.5mm-- SLV 6mm-- Luminos 82* 7mm-- MWA 100* 10mm-- Luminos 15mm--TV Nagler 50* 3mm/180X - 6mm/90X Zoom
Nixterdemus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Switching feeders franzsolo Hummingbirds 3 Saturday 19th December 2015 17:07
Switching systems squidge Micro Four Thirds 4/3 Photography 21 Friday 27th February 2015 14:12
Switching from Panasonic to SONY Paul Tavares Panasonic 9 Sunday 30th November 2014 03:06
PC switching off without warning The gaffer Computers, Birding Software And The Internet 1 Wednesday 6th January 2010 17:31
Desk top switching on problem help please. Cashie Computers, Birding Software And The Internet 14 Thursday 9th August 2007 18:55

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.25490999 seconds with 36 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 13:31.