Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Magnifying the passion for nature. Zeiss Victory Harpia 95. New!

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Camera advice needed please!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old Thursday 12th April 2018, 21:38   #1
thomasclark1985
Registered User

 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Plymouth, UK
Posts: 98
Camera advice needed please!

Hi,

I'm hoping someone can help me with the predicament I am in. For starters I'm not massively into photography so I'm not too savvy with photography acronyms and camera specs. I mainly use my camera for bird ID rather than for artistic purposes, especially when I'm abroad as it's easier to have a photo to ID than just a memory.

Now the issue...

A few years ago I managed to acquire an old Olympus e400 DSLR, with a Sigma 50-500mm lens, and have had some pretty decent results. The drawbacks being the setup is quite heavy and I'm not the most careful, and now the camera is giving up (blue line through photos & saying card cover open intermittently when its not!).

After a friends advice, (not into bird photography) today I went and bought a Panasonic FZ1000 bridge camera, took it out this evening and was not too happy with the results, the zoom wasn't sufficient, and had much better results with my old setup. Although it was better not having a massive lens hanging around my neck for hours. So it's going back tomorrow.

With £500 to spend what's best idea?

a) Compact/bridge camera with a massive zoom.

b) Try to find a decent old/second-hand Olympus 4/3 camera (I have read they are no longer manufactured). Also was the E400 a decent spec camera for a 4/3 lens?

c) Quit photography and stick to bino's and memory.

d) Buy a new micro 4/3 camera and an adapter thing to take the sigma lens, if that's possible, which I think it might be.

e) None of the above, but one of your suggestions.

Any help would be great,

Cheers,

Tom
thomasclark1985 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 12th April 2018, 22:39   #2
fugl
Registered User
BF Supporter 2018

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Reno, Nevada
Posts: 14,028
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasclark1985 View Post
. . .c) Quit photography and stick to bino's and memory.
No need to rely on memory (or camera)—carry a notebook. That’s how it used to be done by serious birders and how I still do it (though I normally have a camera with me as well). Or carry a smart phone/tablet and use a voice recorder to document your sightings on the principle that a decent set of field notes is (generally speaking) worth a thousand lousy photographs.
__________________
Bird photos (Flickr): http://www.flickr.com/photos/fugl/
". . .Let them be left, O let them be left, wildness and wet;
Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet."

--Gerard Manley Hopkins

Last edited by fugl : Thursday 12th April 2018 at 22:56.
fugl is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Friday 13th April 2018, 06:01   #3
nikonmike
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: grimsby uk
Posts: 648
Although im a m4/3 user i have no knowledge of 4/3 but if you join this group they will be able to help.

http://e-group.uk.net/
__________________
Olympus EM1MK11,EM10MK11
Olympus 14-42,60mm macro and 40-150 f2.8+1.4 TC
nikonmike is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 13th April 2018, 06:51   #4
nikonmike
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: grimsby uk
Posts: 648
Just a late thought but because of the way m4/3 focusing works you would possibly have to get an Olympus EM1MK1 to work better with the 50-500.
__________________
Olympus EM1MK11,EM10MK11
Olympus 14-42,60mm macro and 40-150 f2.8+1.4 TC
nikonmike is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 13th April 2018, 07:06   #5
nikonmike
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: grimsby uk
Posts: 648
This guy uses the 50-500 on an EM1, unfortunately, he removed the images but the thread may be of interest.

https://www.mu-43.com/threads/the-ad...f-bigma.89889/
__________________
Olympus EM1MK11,EM10MK11
Olympus 14-42,60mm macro and 40-150 f2.8+1.4 TC
nikonmike is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 13th April 2018, 08:42   #6
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 4,637
2 possible solutions to better photographs which won't cost the earth (though likely over your budget, less so 2nd hand)
* Sony RX-10 IV
* Nikon D7200 + Tamron G2 150-600

Both have in-camera crop factors on top of the sensor crop that will get you beyond your previous reach and will handle BIF well.

I use the Nikon D7200 and using the 1.3x in-camera crop I can often id things in the field from a quick photo that 8x bins can't reveal.

Another possibility (though no longer a currently produced system is available 2nd hand) is the Nikon V3 and 100-300 or even 300mm f4 PF via adapter, though that lens is expensive.

I think these 3 systems are great value for money, and will be as good or better than any m43 setup and much cheaper. Hope that grist for the mill helps .....



Chosun
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Friday 13th April 2018, 13:40   #7
njlarsen
Opus Editor
 
njlarsen's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Portsmouth, Dominica
Posts: 21,056
Quote:
will be as good or better than any m43 setup
Chosun,
with two of those sensors you will get a smaller sensor than m4/3. I do not believe that ALL m4/3 systems are so far behind on focusing that you can fairly say what you say.

Niels
__________________
Support bird conservation in the Caribbean: BirdCaribbean

Temporarily living in Tennessee
njlarsen is online now  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Friday 13th April 2018, 14:04   #8
Zackiedawg
Registered User
 
Zackiedawg's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA
Posts: 922
Part of the reason you're having an issue with the superzoom camera matching your 4:3 camera is that you have less reach overall, even if you take cropping into consideration.

With your E400, you have a 10MP, 4:3 sized sensor, with a 500mm lens. Considering the 2x crop factor of the sensor, you are shooting with an optical-equivalent crop of 1,000mm.

With your FZ1000, you have a 20MP, 1" sensor - the lens goes to 400mm-equivalent, with the crop factor already considered in that figure. You have more megapixels so you have room to crop, but if you crop to 10MP, you would still only be cropping to an optical framing equivalent of 600mm...still quite a bit short of the 1000mm you've been used to.

Cropping isn't of course the solution for everything - you may be able to get a camera with an 'equivalent' of 1,000mm after cropping - but the lens' optical quality, the sensor's performance and noise, the focus system's accuracy, etc will all determine whether all that cropping gives you a result that's in any way usable.

However, if you're using this system almost exclusively for ID purposes, not for the purpose of printing large photos or displaying in galleries - the overall quality isn't as important as being able to get as optically close as possible to see details to identify a species. Focus is important as you need to be able to focus on the subject to see it, but it's not super-crucial that it be perfect. So I think the way you may want to go is to look at mega-zoom cameras that will give you maximum OPTICAL reach without using the internal cropping modes...and good stabilization system for holding it all steady when trying to focus on a small bird in the distance. You may get much noisier results from a small sensor, but the optical reach will still allow you to get closer identifiable markings.

Take a look at some of the mega-zoom cameras like the Nikon P900, which has an optical equivalent reach of 2,000mm - double what you had with your E400...and still with 16MP to work with. It's a smaller sensor, so it will get grainy and noisy in low light, and the results might not be great for making large prints to display - but if you need to use it to identify species, it's got some of the longest optical reach available in a single, sealed unit. And you can still crop further if and when needed - either in-camera or on the computer. Other megazoom cameras to consider: Nikon B700 (1,40mm), (Canon SX60 (1,365mm), Panasonic FZ80 (1,200mm), and Sony HX400 (1,200mm). All of these cameras range from 16mp to 20mp, so have room to crop additionally as well. I wouldn't recommend these to a photographer looking for maximum IQ potential, but for a birder looking for a device to help ID distant birds, these will all be about as long a reach as you can get and all in light, easy to carry devices.
__________________
Justin Miller

Zackiedawg's Photography Gallery
Zackiedawg is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 13th April 2018, 18:18   #9
nikonmike
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: grimsby uk
Posts: 648
Have to say i am a fan of the P900 mentioned above, here is a link to my album

https://www.flickr.com/photos/723917...57686865461884
__________________
Olympus EM1MK11,EM10MK11
Olympus 14-42,60mm macro and 40-150 f2.8+1.4 TC
nikonmike is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 13th April 2018, 18:59   #10
Jim M.
Choose Civility

 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 6,790
Quote:
Originally Posted by njlarsen View Post
Chosun,
with two of those sensors you will get a smaller sensor than m4/3. I do not believe that ALL m4/3 systems are so far behind on focusing that you can fairly say what you say.

Niels
Agreed; I know of no empirical support for Chosun's statement, and don't believe he (?) has ever used a m4/3 camera. Went on a recent trip with someone who had a Nikon D500, and we both had similar results with BIF vs my Oly EM-1 mk. ii. And that was before a recent firmware upgrade that has reportedly significantly improved the latter's BIF capabilities.
__________________
My Micro 4/3 birds & wildlife photo gallery:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/albums
Jim M. is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2013 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Saturday 14th April 2018, 03:34   #11
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 4,637
Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by njlarsen View Post
Chosun,
with two of those sensors you will get a smaller sensor than m4/3. I do not believe that ALL m4/3 systems are so far behind on focusing that you can fairly say what you say.

Niels
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim M. View Post
Agreed; I know of no empirical support for Chosun's statement, and don't believe (she) has ever used a m4/3 camera. Went on a recent trip with someone who had a Nikon D500, and we both had similar results with BIF vs my Oly EM-1 mk. ii. And that was before a recent firmware upgrade that has reportedly significantly improved the latter's BIF capabilities.
I said "I think these 3 systems are great value for money, and will be as good or better than any m43 setup and much cheaper"

Of course I was talking comparable performance - mostly the reach component and the ability to snap off sudden images. Of course the IQ of the APS-C sensor will be superior to m43 which in turn generally outdoes 1" sensors - the Sony RX-10 MkIV is rather special though.

You are spending a LOT of money on m43 (Olympus OM-D EM-1 MkII for instance) - you can virtually get a Nikon D7200 + Tamron G2 150-600 for the price of the m43 body alone, although I just checked Adorama and it seems there is a couple of hundred off the body at the moment. You still then have to fork out for a long lens though, which still won't get you the reach of the APS-C system I suggested.

A mega reach Nikon P900 as others have suggested would also work well for cooperative stationary subjects in good light. I made my suggestions as the best value available since that rarely happens! and I know how super frustrating it is to miss a fleeting record of something new.

I should add that a Black Rapid sling takes care of any weight drawbacks of the Niki + Tammy rig. If the size is an issue I'd be inclined to go straight to the Sony RX-10 MkIV.



Chosun

Last edited by Chosun Juan : Saturday 14th April 2018 at 03:54.
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Saturday 14th April 2018, 11:42   #12
HermitIbis
Registered User
 
HermitIbis's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Black Forest
Posts: 451
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasclark1985 View Post
With £500 to spend what's best idea?

a) Compact/bridge camera with a massive zoom.
Others have already mentioned the compact cameras with 1,000mm equivalent and more. If you want to "improve", it's worth to consider cameras with more fps (than the 3fps of your Olympus) to improve the BIF capabilities. The Nikon V2 + CX70-300 might be available, used, within your budget. That's "only" 800mm equivalent, but a weight below 1kg is a plus if shooting swallow BIF.
HermitIbis is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 14th April 2018, 12:05   #13
Hauksen
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Germany
Posts: 505
Hi Justin,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zackiedawg View Post
With your FZ1000, you have a 20MP, 1" sensor - the lens goes to 400mm-equivalent, with the crop factor already considered in that figure. You have more megapixels so you have room to crop, but if you crop to 10MP, you would still only be cropping to an optical framing equivalent of 600mm...
That's quite an interesting consideration. How do you calculate these numbers? I have an FZ1000 and know it has a nominal 400 mm equivalent focal length, but how would I extrapolate the equivalent focal length when cropped to any particular Megapixel figure from that?

Regards,

Henning
__________________
3D Printable Objects for Bird Watching: http://www.thingiverse.com/Bikecycli...bird-watching/
Hauksen is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 14th April 2018, 14:54   #14
Jim M.
Choose Civility

 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 6,790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
I said "I think these 3 systems are great value for money, and will be as good or better than any m43 setup and much cheaper"

Of course I was talking comparable performance - mostly the reach component and the ability to snap off sudden images. Of course the IQ of the APS-C sensor will be superior to m43 which in turn generally outdoes 1" sensors - the Sony RX-10 MkIV is rather special though.

You are spending a LOT of money on m43 (Olympus OM-D EM-1 MkII for instance) - you can virtually get a Nikon D7200 + Tamron G2 150-600 for the price of the m43 body alone, although I just checked Adorama and it seems there is a couple of hundred off the body at the moment. You still then have to fork out for a long lens though, which still won't get you the reach of the APS-C system I suggested.

A mega reach Nikon P900 as others have suggested would also work well for cooperative stationary subjects in good light. I made my suggestions as the best value available since that rarely happens! and I know how super frustrating it is to miss a fleeting record of something new.

I should add that a Black Rapid sling takes care of any weight drawbacks of the Niki + Tammy rig. If the size is an issue I'd be inclined to go straight to the Sony RX-10 MkIV.
Though certainly worth considering, I think your recommendations have significant drawbacks for the OP. The Sony has much less reach than his 4/3 set up and a smaller sensor; the P900 has an even smaller sensor and lacks raw capability – not a problem for ID shots, but a limitation in case he wants to move beyond them. Your Nikon DSLR set up has less reach and is a bit heavier than his current 4/3 set up, which he already finds a burden, and will require him buying both a new body and lens. (And sorry, sling straps may ease the weight burden for some, but they certainly don't eliminate it).

I'd suggest he consider a used Oly EM-1 mk. 1, which was suggested above and should be well within his budget. He can then upgrade to better/lighter, as his funds permit. Though I would seek further input on the DP Review m4/3 or legacy lens forums, where there will be more people with experience with legacy lenses.

No disagreement that top-of-the-line m4/3s equipment is expensive, but that is because it offers a unique combination of light weight, serious reach, and high image quality. m4/3 also has quality lower cost options, however.
__________________
My Micro 4/3 birds & wildlife photo gallery:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/albums

Last edited by Jim M. : Saturday 14th April 2018 at 15:14.
Jim M. is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2013 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Saturday 14th April 2018, 16:18   #15
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 4,637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim M. View Post
Though certainly worth considering, I think your recommendations have significant drawbacks for the OP. The Sony has much less reach than his 4/3 set up and a smaller sensor; the P900 has an even smaller sensor and lacks raw capability – not a problem for ID shots, but a limitation in case he wants to move beyond them. Your Nikon DSLR set up has less reach and is a bit heavier than his current 4/3 set up, which he already finds a burden, and will require him buying both a new body and lens. (And sorry, sling straps may ease the weight burden for some, but they certainly don't eliminate it).

I'd suggest he consider a used Oly EM-1 mk. 1, which was suggested above and should be well within his budget. He can then upgrade to better/lighter, as his funds permit. Though I would seek further input on the DP Review m4/3 or legacy lens forums, where there will be more people with experience with legacy lenses.

No disagreement that top-of-the-line m4/3s equipment is expensive, but that is because it offers a unique combination of light weight, serious reach, and high image quality. m4/3 also has quality lower cost options, however.
The Sony has a cutting edge 20MP BSI CMOS sensor and phase detect AF, and it's Zeiss glass is faster and better than anything mentioned. Despite it's smaller sensor size it likely has much better dynamic range anyway. It also has facility for in-camera crop at lower than full resolution which takes it to 900mm, and 1200mm. It costs less than the Olympus OM-D EM-1 MkII body alone, so I think if the OP wants something smaller then this is a great solution.

I agree about the Nikon P900, but it is capable in it's limited performance envelope and a cheaper option - I think there is a P1000 model on its way which will supercede it very shortly.

The APS-C Nikon D7200 + Tamron G2 150-600 is superior in every way to any comparably priced m43 system, and I think it is fair to say that you would have to spend twice the amount to get on a near equal footing. With the Nikon's DX sensor crop factor of 1.5x you are at 900mm equivalent. It also has a 1.3x in-camera crop factor at 15.4MP which puts you at 1200mm. Far superior in every way to the OP's current set up, and at ~6lb all up is well balanced and easily managed on a Black Rapid Sports sling (harness) - I can carry it all day. Set up properly the sling is ultra quick to snap opportune off hand shots, and the sling length can be set not only for comfortable carrying but also be used to brace and steady the rig for shooting - 70 odd bucks very well spent


Chosun
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Saturday 14th April 2018, 16:57   #16
Jim M.
Choose Civility

 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 6,790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
The APS-C Nikon D7200 + Tamron G2 150-600 is superior in every way to any comparably priced m43 system
Every micro 4/3 system is superior to the Nikon in weight and portability. I also note that top-end micro 4/3 systems (which I acknowledge are not comparably priced) have superior image stabilization and frame rates, and also offer a fully functional and silent electronic shutter.

Top end M4/3 sensors outperform the Sony RX10 mk iii on all DXO mark scores. I believe the mk iv has the same sensor (which wasn't rated the last time I checked).
__________________
My Micro 4/3 birds & wildlife photo gallery:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/albums

Last edited by Jim M. : Saturday 14th April 2018 at 16:59.
Jim M. is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2013 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Saturday 14th April 2018, 17:48   #17
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 4,637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim M. View Post
Every micro 4/3 system is superior to the Nikon in weight and portability. I also note that top-end micro 4/3 systems (which I acknowledge are not comparably priced) have superior image stabilization and frame rates, and also offer a fully functional and silent electronic shutter.

Top end M4/3 sensors outperform the Sony RX10 mk iii on all DXO mark scores. I believe the mk iv has the same sensor (which wasn't rated the last time I checked).
I think you're trying to argue around in circles.

The Sony RX-10 MkIV is superior to every comparable m43 system in weight and portability too. So what's the point.

Also no m43 system will get near the Nikon D7200 + Tamron G2 150-600 for reach and IQ either. So again what's the point.

As important as frame rates is the number of those that are in focus. My rig does 7fps and doesn't miss any if I do my part. Electronic shutter would be nice though. I think as more rolling shutter and EVF lag problems are solved then Mirrorless will become more attractive.

Of course an Olympus OM-D EM-1 MkII + 300mm f4 PRO with or without a 1.4xTC is a very nice rig - something like about 4&1/2 pounds - but also over $1000 for each and every one of those pounds !

I think the rigs I suggested offer excellent performance for the OP. They just need to decide what is more important to them - shooting Nikon DX at 1200mm is quite addictive, but so could be the light weight of the Sony ........



Chosun
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Saturday 14th April 2018, 21:15   #18
njlarsen
Opus Editor
 
njlarsen's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Portsmouth, Dominica
Posts: 21,056
Chosun,
the thing I still object to (after these intermediate posts) is with the Nikon system. When you - to get similar reach - have activated the 1.3x in camera crop, then you are using a sensor of the same size as the m4/3 sensor. It will also give about the same mpix resolution. It is only if you do not activate that crop you can talk about the nikon system having a sensor advantage.

I agree that cost is an issue with the m4/3 rigs. However, if I were to be forced to leave that system, I would be more likely to go in the direction of the 1 inch superzooms than in the direction of the nikon, those long lenses are just to unwieldy.

Niels

Niels
__________________
Support bird conservation in the Caribbean: BirdCaribbean

Temporarily living in Tennessee
njlarsen is online now  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Saturday 14th April 2018, 21:59   #19
thomasclark1985
Registered User

 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Plymouth, UK
Posts: 98
Thank you very much everyone for the information. Yesterday after returning the FZ1000 I tried out the FZ82 bridge camera which has 1200mm zoom. I was impressed by what it could do in the shop car park especially considering it was half the price of the FZ1000 and it seemed to suit my needs perfectly. I’ve used it today on a few birds so distant I couldn’t ID them by eye, and ended up easily able to ID them, and even some decent photos (by my standards!). So it looks like my sigma lens will be packed away in th loft for the foreseeable future, and no longer will I have a stiff neck and back after lugging it around all day!

Many thanks,

Tom
thomasclark1985 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 15th April 2018, 05:19   #20
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 4,637
Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by njlarsen View Post
Chosun,
the thing I still object to (after these intermediate posts) is with the Nikon system. When you - to get similar reach - have activated the 1.3x in camera crop, then you are using a sensor of the same size as the m4/3 sensor. It will also give about the same mpix resolution. It is only if you do not activate that crop you can talk about the nikon system having a sensor advantage.

I agree that cost is an issue with the m4/3 rigs. However, if I were to be forced to leave that system, I would be more likely to go in the direction of the 1 inch superzooms than in the direction of the nikon, those long lenses are just to unwieldy.

Niels

Niels
Niels,

It is true that by activating the 1.3x in-camera crop of the Nikon then you are at roughly 2x crop. However there are two important points to consider:
i) You still have greater individual sensor pixel pitch with the APS-C system than with the m43, giving better dynamic range and noise control. The 24MP sensor of the Nikon D7200 is a Sony one and is a gem and clearly has a sensor advantage taking that into account.
ii) You still have a reach advantage with the APS-C system and native fit 600mm lens. Even if you take the extra resolution of a ~20MP m43 sensor into account (over the 15.4MP of the 1.3x in-camera crop mode of the Nikon D7200) it still only gets you to ~900mm (using say the 100-400 Panny lens) when cropping the photo afterwards to equivalize resolutions ..... well short of the Nikon rig I suggested.

Even if you take the very best and longest native fit m43 system available - the Olympus OM-D EM-1 MkII + Olympus 300mm f4 PRO + 1.4xTC (giving 840mm equivalent reach), and crop the photo down to an equivalent 15.4MP of the Nikon (in 1.3x in camera crop mode) then you are still only at about ~950mm equivalent.
So you are only at about ~80% reach but with a lesser sensor quality, slightly under ~80% of the weight, and at least twice the co$t of the APS-C system I recommended ....... that's a costly pound and a half to shed !

I hope that helps clarify the situation. Trust me, I crunched a lot of numbers before leaping from a blank sheet of paper, and 1200mm is quite addictive !

However it looks like the OP is headed downsize at least for now
Cheers


Chosun
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Sunday 15th April 2018, 05:35   #21
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 4,637
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasclark1985 View Post
Thank you very much everyone for the information. Yesterday after returning the FZ1000 I tried out the FZ82 bridge camera which has 1200mm zoom. I was impressed by what it could do in the shop car park especially considering it was half the price of the FZ1000 and it seemed to suit my needs perfectly. I’ve used it today on a few birds so distant I couldn’t ID them by eye, and ended up easily able to ID them, and even some decent photos (by my standards!). So it looks like my sigma lens will be packed away in th loft for the foreseeable future, and no longer will I have a stiff neck and back after lugging it around all day!

Many thanks,

Tom
Congratulations. I hope it works out well for you.

Looks like you've opted for a big downsize. Let us know how your setup goes for the purpose.

Keep in mind that Nikon will shortly launch a P1000 bridge camera (successor to the P900) with the same size sensor as your new kit, and it is rumoured to have a 125x zoom ! (24-3000mm) !!

Also bear in mind that Sony development cycles are very short and we could expect an upgraded Sony RX-10 MkV (1" sensor - so handily bigger and better quality than what you have) in say ~12~24 months .......
This is currently the bees knees sensor on the market.

I'd sell whatever other gear you have (while it still retains some value) , and start saving pennies for one of these two. The Sony will be far superior for catching birds in motion or BIF, and the Nikon whilst not as good at BIF as the Sony will negate those drawbacks somewhat with 3000mm reach. Both should be better than your new rig (just saying as a helpful suggestion in case limitations and frustrations set in with your new acquisition :)

Practice will make perfect - all the best !



Chosun
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Sunday 15th April 2018, 07:30   #22
pshute
Registered User

 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 843
I'm just wondering if you've tried a different card in your Olympus camera, just in case that's the problem with it. It would be pity to let that lens go to waste, even if you opt to use the smaller camera most of the time.

Might be worth asking in the Olympus forum here.
pshute is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 15th April 2018, 08:13   #23
Jim M.
Choose Civility

 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 6,790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
I think you're trying to argue around in circles.
Not sure how demonstrating that some of your generalizations are inaccurate is "arguing in circles"?

But I appreciate your point of view and agree with much of what you say. My point is you are making some exaggerated and unfair claims to support your postion, and to denigrate a very attractive M4/3 system--even though you've never taken a single photo with a m4/3 camera. As another example, you keep on using the heaviest m4/3 lens--the oly 300mm prime--to minimize the weight advantage of m4/3, when the much lighter PL100-400 would show that advantage in a much better light. The fact is, all the alternatives to m4/3 will either have worse image quality, or require you to lug around a lot more weight. So m4/3 is a very attractive option for bird photographers tired of the weight of DSLR systems, but who want serious image quality. The light weight and excellent image quality of m4/3 systems is addictive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
i) You still have greater individual sensor pixel pitch with the APS-C system than with the m43, giving better dynamic range and noise control. The 24MP sensor of the Nikon D7200 is a Sony one and is a gem and clearly has a sensor advantage taking that into account.
Show me a noticeable difference between a cropped APS-C sensor photo and an uncropped top end m4/3 sensor--I've never seen it. There's only a "clear...sensor advantage" if you can see it, not just talk about it. Even uncropped, the differences between the newer m4/3 sensor and the old D7200 sensor are getting smaller and smaller. I believe Sony makes the m4/3 sensors as well by the way.
__________________
My Micro 4/3 birds & wildlife photo gallery:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/albums

Last edited by Jim M. : Sunday 15th April 2018 at 08:46.
Jim M. is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2013 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Sunday 15th April 2018, 12:28   #24
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 4,637
Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim M. View Post
Not sure how demonstrating that some of your generalizations are inaccurate is "arguing in circles"?

But I appreciate your point of view and agree with much of what you say. My point is you are making some exaggerated and unfair claims to support your postion, and to denigrate a very attractive M4/3 system--even though you've never taken a single photo with a m4/3 camera. As another example, you keep on using the heaviest m4/3 lens--the oly 300mm prime--to minimize the weight advantage of m4/3, when the much lighter PL100-400 would show that advantage in a much better light. The fact is, all the alternatives to m4/3 will either have worse image quality, or require you to lug around a lot more weight. So m4/3 is a very attractive option for bird photographers tired of the weight of DSLR systems, but who want serious image quality. The light weight and excellent image quality of m4/3 systems is addictive!



Show me a noticeable difference between a cropped APS-C sensor photo and an uncropped top end m4/3 sensor--I've never seen it. There's only a "clear...sensor advantage" if you can see it, not just talk about it. Even uncropped, the differences between the newer m4/3 sensor and the old D7200 sensor are getting smaller and smaller. I believe Sony makes the m4/3 sensors as well by the way.
I don't want to hijack this thread, but pray tell what generalizations did I make? let alone where are the inaccuracies?
Jeez, whilst agreeing with me on most things (except what you have wrong?) , and with you even repeating what I have said, it seems that you are still somehow trying to argue with me.

I have made no unfair and exaggerated claims, and I don't have a position to defend. Did you even read my post #20 ? where I used the 100-400 Panny lens as an example.

The mathematics are quite clear. No native m43 system can match the reach of the Nikon D7200 + Tamron G2 150-600 let alone do it, or even get close, for the same amount of money. Do the maths yourself.

Many factors apart from sensor and focal length of the lens go to technically make a good image - closeness to subject, suitable atmospheric conditions, lighting, correctly exposing and capturing the data, correct shutter speed, lowest ISO possible, correct focus, and stability at the moment of shooting.

It matters not a jot whether you have shot one particular system, rig, or another - what we are talking about plain and simple is the number and quality of the pixels able to be placed on a subject from a given distance. That is sensor size, resolution, and focal length of the lens, natively with an aperture of at least f6.3 allowing AF on moving targets, and without TC's. I have made no inaccurate claims about weight, and I didn't even touch on the subject of ergonomics where the larger DSLR systems are widely regarded as superior.

You can't bandy about terms like "top end m43 sensor" without naming the model, the specs and the price. If there is a further reaching native m43 than the Nikon D7200 + Tamron G2 150-600, then please let me know what it is and show me the maths.


Chosun
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Sunday 15th April 2018, 15:57   #25
njlarsen
Opus Editor
 
njlarsen's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Portsmouth, Dominica
Posts: 21,056
Chosun, you wrote
Quote:
You still have greater individual sensor pixel pitch with the APS-C system than with the m43,
Numbers for d7200 pixel pitch: 3.92 microns
for my Pana g85 pixel pitch: 3.75 microns
The advantage for nikon: 4%, hardly earth-shattering.

I am not sure who made the sensor in my camera, but I can directly compare with an older model, and there is about a 1.5 iso step improvement in usable sensitivity for similar noise levels when compared to the GH2 I had in the past. [When processing from RAW using my preferred processing software]

Niels
__________________
Support bird conservation in the Caribbean: BirdCaribbean

Temporarily living in Tennessee
njlarsen is online now  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Advice needed for a camera jurek Cameras And Photography 28 Wednesday 1st November 2017 12:59
Advice Needed for Gift Camera Gobbler Pentax 4 Thursday 20th September 2007 11:07
Digital camera advice needed, please catkin2909 Cameras And Photography 22 Monday 5th June 2006 22:07
Advice on final choice of a DSLR camera needed. senatore Nikon 10 Sunday 25th December 2005 09:23
Help Needed on Camera Adapter, Camera busterbrown885 Digiscoping cameras 1 Saturday 3rd July 2004 14:18

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.27315211 seconds with 36 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 03:32.