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Old Thursday 15th January 2015, 14:52   #51
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Holger, I've had my SE next to both SF & SV all three side by side this week, outdoors in dull Winter light looking at Birds on feeders 30m distance.

As my view is as valid or useless as most on here I can tell you not a single detail was lost to the SE, I don't know if anyone else on here has been able to try these three alongside, but it was quite a revelation to see just how good a late 550*** SE really is.

There's a load of life in good Porro's yet.
Let's have a review of the three. Everybody is waiting. The three best binoculars in the world. Even coming from a porro-maniac it would be interesting.

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Old Thursday 15th January 2015, 15:35   #52
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OH REST IN PIECE OH MIGHTY NIKON EII. YOU HAVE SERVED THE BIRDERS ON A BUDGET WELL BUT YOUR TECHNOLOGY IS FADING AND NEWCOMERS CALLED SV AND SF ARE CLEARLY SUPERIOR SO IT HAS COME TIME FOR YOU TO PASS INTO BINOCULAR HEAVEN. WE WILL DEARLY MISS YOU BUT YOUR FATE HAS BEEN DECIDED BY TECHNOLOGY AND THE CONSUMER HAS SPOKEN. ROOFS ARE THE WAVE OF THE FUTURE. REST IN PIECE.

There they are buried.


As Mark "Porro" Twain said after his obituary had been mistakenly published by Dennis in the Bird Forum:

The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated
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Old Thursday 15th January 2015, 15:42   #53
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Let's have a review of the three. Everybody is waiting. The three best binoculars in the world. Even coming from a porro-maniac it would be interesting.
I "ain't" biting. I've seen this movie before at the Bird Forum theater and think I know what the ending will be from this particular director/producer.
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Old Thursday 15th January 2015, 15:51   #54
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Originally Posted by Torview View Post
Holger, I've had my SE next to both SF & SV all three side by side this week, outdoors in dull Winter light looking at Birds on feeders 30m distance.

As my view is as valid or useless as most on here I can tell you not a single detail was lost to the SE, I don't know if anyone else on here has been able to try these three alongside, but it was quite a revelation to see just how good a late 550*** SE really is.

There's a load of life in good Porro's yet.
The earlier 8X32 SE's are just as good as the newer models. The term, "feather detail" was once commonly used to measure (however crudely) the quality of a binocular. I've looked at every alpha in production except the SF and my SE's show as much or more feather detail than any 8X binocular. Sometimes it's down right scary what that little bin can deliver to the human eye.
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Old Thursday 15th January 2015, 16:13   #55
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Brock,

I literally feel your pain. We just had to have our cat (my very best pal) euthanized yesterday after 5 months and thousands of dollars spent in a losing effort against congestive heart failure. I could hardly feel any worse if he had been a close human friend. Had we been presented with the total bill at the beginning we would never have gone down that path, but it came gradually in the form of a dozen interventions, each one until recently bringing with it some hope of stabilizing the situation.

Henry
Henry

So sorry to hear about your loss.
Best wishes indeed.

Lee
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Old Thursday 15th January 2015, 19:32   #56
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Thanks Lee,

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Old Thursday 15th January 2015, 20:56   #57
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Henry, like Lee I'm sorry to hear about your cat, many people believe you can just replace a beloved pet with a new one, how little they know.

Dennis I'm not interested in trying to bore people with my point of view, anyway I like the updated Leica.
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Old Friday 16th January 2015, 02:13   #58
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Let's have a review of the three. Everybody is waiting. The three best binoculars in the world. Even coming from a porro-maniac it would be interesting.
There is no need for a competition. The SF and the SV are excellent binoculars. Only thing is that their performance has to be related to their price, unless you have unlimited financial resources to fund your investments.

You mentioned that the market has decided. That is a good point: I have bought my Nikon 8x30 EII more than 10 years ago. That time I believed that they offered a good performance for their money, and I was planning to use them temporarily until I would find the right high end glass for me. Since then, I have tried all of them, and though they were somewhat better here and there, I haven't yet felt the need to replace the EII. So I still keep on using them.

Perhaps this is one key point: People as me, who buy in this price class, are often satisfied with what they got. Then, there are others who always want the "best" (or, sometimes, just the newest and most expensive gadget there is on the market), who continuously change from Leica Trino to Zeiss FL to Swaro SV and now to Zeiss SF.

The manufacturers cannot make the big money with customers who are too satisfied with their products and who are using them over many years. The real money is made with those who remain restless and jump onto every bandwagon that passes by. So there exists little drive to produce good, but moderately priced Porros, which would anyway remain unattractive to the high end buyers (regardless of performance), but which find their satisfied group of customers who stay with them. To the manufacturer, it is more beneficial to continue making items with minor improvements that nonetheless keep the prices growing up, which generate thousands of entries on the discussion boards even prior to their introduction :-)

Cheers,
Holger
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Old Friday 16th January 2015, 02:15   #59
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Well Brock, that right there is your brand new SF ..... no need for any EII fire sale . you could have had your cake and eaten it too !

I've heard of weird cat lady's before, but cat men?!

At least should you ever unexpectedly kark it at home, your pride of cats will be well fed for several weeks before they are forced to turn on each other ! , and it will make an interesting story on the local news ......

Just think, instead of reading about feline ailments and vet bills, we could be reading your extensive report of your new SF ...... for 3G I'd be letting them play 'tag' with "GOLIATH" ...... that way you'd save on those expensive chicken wings too !


Chosun
Maybe the dingo ate your baby.
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Old Friday 16th January 2015, 03:00   #60
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Henry, like Lee I'm sorry to hear about your cat, many people believe you can just replace a beloved pet with a new one, how little they know.

Dennis I'm not interested in trying to bore people with my point of view, anyway I like the updated Leica.
"I like the updated Leica."

You like a roof! What model? It must be good.
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Old Friday 16th January 2015, 03:01   #61
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I "ain't" biting. I've seen this movie before at the Bird Forum theater and think I know what the ending will be from this particular director/producer.
The best man or binocular will win.
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Old Friday 16th January 2015, 03:04   #62
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I would like to add my 2 cents. The question asked in the original post was about a comparison of the EII 8x30 and Habicht 8x30. I had them both but I have kept only the EII. Briefly, from what I recall: the focuser of the Habicht was very stiff, the eyecups were very shallow, and the glare was very strong---too many "very's". I also had the FL 8x32---fine optics, but their ergonomics were not to my liking. I have tried many other 8x32/30 but none seemed to better the EII, even when the price was taken out of the equation (for example, the UV 8x32 gave me lots of blackouts as their eyecups do not extend long enough wrt their (in fact rather small) ER). This was the case until I got an SV 8x32---IMO this is the best 8x32 hands down. Of course some do not share this opinion, as they have different eyes, eye sockets, face shape and taste---and different pockets too. Which are the best binos when one takes the price/performance ratio into account is a more complex problem to which the possible solution, or an approximation to it, might indeed be the EII.

Peter.

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Old Friday 16th January 2015, 03:08   #63
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There is no need for a competition. The SF and the SV are excellent binoculars. Only thing is that their performance has to be related to their price, unless you have unlimited financial resources to fund your investments.

You mentioned that the market has decided. That is a good point: I have bought my Nikon 8x30 EII more than 10 years ago. That time I believed that they offered a good performance for their money, and I was planning to use them temporarily until I would find the right high end glass for me. Since then, I have tried all of them, and though they were somewhat better here and there, I haven't yet felt the need to replace the EII. So I still keep on using them.

Perhaps this is one key point: People as me, who buy in this price class, are often satisfied with what they got. Then, there are others who always want the "best" (or, sometimes, just the newest and most expensive gadget there is on the market), who continuously change from Leica Trino to Zeiss FL to Swaro SV and now to Zeiss SF.

The manufacturers cannot make the big money with customers who are too satisfied with their products and who are using them over many years. The real money is made with those who remain restless and jump onto every bandwagon that passes by. So there exists little drive to produce good, but moderately priced Porros, which would anyway remain unattractive to the high end buyers (regardless of performance), but which find their satisfied group of customers who stay with them. To the manufacturer, it is more beneficial to continue making items with minor improvements that nonetheless keep the prices growing up, which generate thousands of entries on the discussion boards even prior to their introduction :-)

Cheers,
Holger
That's how the American economy works. HaHa! If everybody was like you it would stagnate.There have to be people with expendable income to buy stuff they really don't need like a Zeiss SF. My financial resources are like a Black Hole unlimited when it comes to binoculars at least.

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Old Friday 16th January 2015, 09:01   #64
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Maybe the dingo ate your baby.
No. But I've seen two Wedge-tailed Eagles kill and eat a dingo!

They've developed a taste for puddy tat too over the last 200 odd years since White man decided to come and stuff the joint ...... hey! chalk one up for the natives

Of course you'd see something like that with an EII, but you'd see it a w-h-o-l-e lot better with an SF .....


Chosun

Ps. Since when did Dennis start writing your material?! ..... I hope you're not paying him too well ........
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Old Friday 16th January 2015, 13:03   #65
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Holger's post at #58 above is the most sense i've heard in a while, and just about sums up what i think.
From 1992 to around 2010, i used an old pair of Viking 8x42 porros, and prized them dearly. They worked (mostly) for almost everything i did. It was only when i became aware of the 'optics yardstick' that i realised they perhaps lacked a little something. I've still got them, and they will never leave, even if now i use a Vanguard Endeavor, as we shared a lot of real good times.....I'm certainly not spending 2000 chasing rainbows.
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Old Friday 16th January 2015, 14:25   #66
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That's how the American economy works. HaHa! If everybody was like you it would stagnate.There have to be people with expendable income to buy stuff they really don't need like a Zeiss SF. My financial resources are like a Black Hole unlimited when it comes to binoculars at least.


Dennis,

Holger lives in China where they make the most binoculars in the world. You don't have to tell him how the American economy works. He knows that Americans buy a great portion of those Chinese binoculars. Much more, in fact, than those expensive European ones which you erroneously think control the binocular markets in the west. That is one reason why Zeiss has expanded into China. You don't have to worry about the binocular economy stagnating.

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Old Friday 16th January 2015, 17:33   #67
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Holger's post at #58 above is the most sense i've heard in a while, and just about sums up what i think.
From 1992 to around 2010, i used an old pair of Viking 8x42 porros, and prized them dearly. They worked (mostly) for almost everything i did. It was only when i became aware of the 'optics yardstick' that i realised they perhaps lacked a little something. I've still got them, and they will never leave, even if now i use a Vanguard Endeavor, as we shared a lot of real good times.....I'm certainly not spending 2000 chasing rainbows.
Paddy
You also want to avoid chasing irrelevant or fanciful objective designs or glass types down in the rabbit hole because unless you are very tiny, you won't be able to fit or you will get yourself stuck. (going to keep milking that one for all it's worth )

Image-wise, the only advantage the "latest and greatest" uber expensive roofs have over my older Porros such as the Swift 804 MC Audubon or my single coated Nikon 7x35 WF is that the roofs have more advanced FMCs, with higher light transmission, greater contrast and color saturation. If there were an aftermarket company that updated coatings on old Porros for a reasonable price, I'd never even think about buying a roof.

Brock
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Old Friday 16th January 2015, 21:16   #68
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Originally Posted by Holger Merlitz View Post

Perhaps this is one key point: People as me, who buy in this price class, are often satisfied with what they got. Then, there are others who always want the "best" (or, sometimes, just the newest and most expensive gadget there is on the market), who continuously change from Leica Trino to Zeiss FL to Swaro SV and now to Zeiss SF.

Cheers,
Holger
Surely this cannot be true.
It seems very unlikely that there is a large group of bino obsessives that flit from alpha to alpha as the new models emerge. The members of this forum are in no way representative of the real world imho.
Rather there is a much larger number of people who are clueless but who need quality optics for some reason, maybe a trip. Some buy whatever the salesman gives them, some just buy the cheapest and some buy the most expensive they can find, because that is 'the best'.
New customers is what drives the market. Most binoculars remain in the cupboard gathering dust subsequent to the occasion of their purchase.
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Old Friday 16th January 2015, 22:18   #69
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Surely this cannot be true.
It seems very unlikely that there is a large group of bino obsessives that flit from alpha to alpha as the new models emerge. The members of this forum are in no way representative of the real world imho.
Rather there is a much larger number of people who are clueless but who need quality optics for some reason, maybe a trip. Some buy whatever the salesman gives them, some just buy the cheapest and some buy the most expensive they can find, because that is 'the best'.
New customers is what drives the market. Most binoculars remain in the cupboard gathering dust subsequent to the occasion of their purchase.
I expect Bill Cook to chime in here to confirm the number of "clueless" customers that buy whatever the salesman hands them. Duck! Here come the "war stories."

If someone dropped in on BF binoculars forum for the first time, I can easily see why he might think that there is a large group of bino obsessives that flit from alpha to alpha as the new models emerge. Certainly seems like that on these forums, but from my experience with local birders and hunters, this behavior is not typical.

Brock
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Old Saturday 17th January 2015, 03:20   #70
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Surely this cannot be true.
It seems very unlikely that there is a large group of bino obsessives that flit from alpha to alpha as the new models emerge. The members of this forum are in no way representative of the real world imho.
Rather there is a much larger number of people who are clueless but who need quality optics for some reason, maybe a trip. Some buy whatever the salesman gives them, some just buy the cheapest and some buy the most expensive they can find, because that is 'the best'.
New customers is what drives the market. Most binoculars remain in the cupboard gathering dust subsequent to the occasion of their purchase.
You may be right - I guess it is a topic that must have been analyzed before by the marketing guys of the manufacturers. I would like to know their results. To me it seems almost impossible to believe that a bloody newcomer, with no former experience in this field, steps in and shells out 2000 bucks for something he doesn't understand. But then, what do I know about customer profiles ...

Cheers,
Holger
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Old Saturday 17th January 2015, 08:20   #71
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Buying whatever the salesman gives them is short term profit strategy.
Trust is earned.
There is a group of customers who have learned by experience what they (don't) want; others don't have that experience and/or time to educate themselves and go for the best advice from a specialist and for that reason visit a retailer (hopefully he finds a competent one, again trust is earned). This last group is not to be ignored and are the ones who step in en buy >2.000,00 bucks worth on optics. The price is not a issue. Money is only a way to get the right equipment. Fool these people and you've lost them (and their inner circle) for life. Treat them with respect and they stay for life. Again trust is earned.

Jan

Last edited by jan van daalen : Saturday 17th January 2015 at 08:22. Reason: forgot a sentence
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Old Saturday 17th January 2015, 15:03   #72
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You may be right - I guess it is a topic that must have been analyzed before by the marketing guys of the manufacturers. I would like to know their results. To me it seems almost impossible to believe that a bloody newcomer, with no former experience in this field, steps in and shells out 2000 bucks for something he doesn't understand. But then, what do I know about customer profiles ...

Cheers,
Holger
Its an interesting question Holger and Jan.

I am guessing much depends on how the newcomer became a birder (or hunter). If most of your friends or just most of the people you see at reserves, are carrying Leicas (20 years ago) or Swarovski (now) or Zeiss (in 3 years time ) then if you have the money it would seem to be safe to buy what they have.

Lee
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Old Saturday 17th January 2015, 20:34   #73
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Rambling around

Does anybody remember what was the question in the original post? I know I am going to be told that this is a free forum and that the usual amount of clutter per thread must be at least 50%. However IMO if the clutter could be kept under 10% then that would be what most people call a useful thread.
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Old Saturday 17th January 2015, 20:39   #74
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Does anybody remember what was the question in the original post? I know I am going to be told that this is a free forum and that the usual amount of clutter per thread must be at least 50%. However IMO if the clutter could be kept under 10% then that would be what most people call a useful thread.
O o, fun police arrived
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Old Saturday 17th January 2015, 20:40   #75
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Does anybody remember what was the question in the original post? I know I am going to be told that this is a free forum and that the usual amount of clutter per thread must be at least 50%. However IMO if the clutter could be kept under 10% then that would be what most people call a useful thread.
I so agree with you pesto
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