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Pileatus said:
I'm fascinated by the love of Zen-Ray (sold Chinese-made bins) but the disdain at other times for...Chinese-made bins.

Caveat Emptor

http://www.buzzfile.com/business/Zen~Ray-Optics-L.L.C.-503-360-5352
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This will in all likelihood will conclude my posting in this thread. I simply have said what I wanted to say. I will just use this opportunity to mention that as far as I was concerned, love for Chinese binoculars was never a part of the issue. The issue was what you got versus the price paid. That (the Chinese origin) seemed to be an issue with probably the first anti ZR post and subsequently for a lot of the people who wanted to see Zen Ray fail.

Xlr8n,

Zen Ray's problems are all over the internet. As far as a link goes try this thread, the problems are the topic of concern. For that matter look over the whole recent postings in the ZR subforum here.;)
 
Steve, sorry I misunderstood. This is how I had read what you wrote there. By the phrase "the push Zen Ray was involved in starting those few years ago" I thought you meant (no, not Z-R alone but) Z-R and other such companies like Theron and Kruger (post #6, by Nixterdemus). I thought you were saying that without that push Zeiss, Nikon, Vortex and Leica would not have made the models you name. To this I respond that I believe these older cos. would have put out these models about the time they did anyway (without that push). I very much appreciate what Z-R and those other newer cos. did in designing afresh and making available the models they did, do agree that they have encouraged yet other new cos. to follow them, and am mindful that Leupold and Bushnell (cannot recall other cos. right now) "cloned" their models.
 
I agree Vortex was a trend-setter for sure in the 'good-optics-for-less-than-Euro-prices' market segment, but Zen Ray really pushed the envelope on the actually glass quality of those optics. Aside from maybe the Vortex Razor, nobody had reached the level of optical glass quality that Zen Ray was achieving over the last decade. It seems as though the final fall-off must have been rather recent as the Zen Ray website says they were planning a new webstore in early 2018:

Our shopping site is under construction, which will not be able to take any new order. Please check back in early 2018 for new look and function.
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Steve C said:
This will in all likelihood will conclude my posting in this thread. I simply have said what I wanted to say. I will just use this opportunity to mention that as far as I was concerned, love for Chinese binoculars was never a part of the issue. The issue was what you got versus the price paid. That (the Chinese origin) seemed to be an issue with probably the first anti ZR post and subsequently for a lot of the people who wanted to see Zen Ray fail.

Xlr8n,

Zen Ray's problems are all over the internet. As far as a link goes try this thread, the problems are the topic of concern. For that matter look over the whole recent postings in the ZR subforum here.;)
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Yeah, I'm interested, but not interested enough to wade through multiple threads. I just was hoping somebody in the know could provide a couple sentence run-down of what went wrong. :t:
 
I must have missed the animosity towards Zen Ray. I thought almost everyone was rooting for them. Seems strange to me that anyone would care where they were made as long as they were good. It's certainly not like they were the only ones using chinese labor.

This gets weirder more I hear about it. I figured they went broke and split for parts unknown. End of story. Not like that doesn't happen all the time either. I don't have a problem discussing all this because I'm not emotionally attached one way or another. Even if my Zens break I have many others to take its place. Sad but not a tragedy. I knew they were a startup company and there was risk. Had not Eagle Optics been owned by the Vortex Optics people I'd be dealing with a similar situation.
 
black crow said:
Perterra.

Really? I've been on this forum off and on for a bit and I haven't seen many if any examples of what you are talking about. Let's remember that this company would not answer the phone to respond to customers that they had made promises to. Are they supposed to be happy with that? In my world actions speak more to the truth than what someone has been saying. I would at least have put up a phone message saying something, anything, rather than just ignore everyone and walk away. I never wanted a pound of flesh even though I lost a promised lifetime warranty. I would like to know what happened however. That seems little to ask.
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Yep, really!

This is where it would really pay to do the research that folks like Bill (WJC) has been preaching every since I first read one of his post. Know who you are dealing with. Zen was always a shirt pocket company. Three employees and $250,000 a year in revenue tells me there is the possibility it could go south.

Not knowing what happened isnt the end of the world, but I am guessing you have never been hung up in something when vendor/supplier lawsuits start flying. The first thing company attorneys tell you is keep your mouth shut. Dont say a word to anybody.

I'm sure if you owned a company and it folded, creditors took everything, you would cash out your 401K, borrow money from family, and sell everything you own to repay customers. But in todays business world, folks who do that end up living under bridges.

There is nothing weird about it, in 30 years of business I have been stiffed a couple times a year every year. More than likely theres more people other than his customers taking a bath. Nothing personal in my post, just saying this is a lot more common in business to business relationships than many seem to realize
 
I think ZR going under is a real shame. At one time they were providing a really excellent product for the price, and were my first "expensive" binocular. They were so FAR above and beyond what I had been using for decades, that I ended up with 2 other models made by them. When the CS took such a breathtaking dive for the worse, I stopped recommending them. Nothing personal, just cause and effect. I definitely don't wish Charles any ill will, these things happen, every day. I'm also glad to have stumbled upon this forum years ago because it is such a great source of information.
 
They were my first mid level binocular also and I still have them while a dozen or more other brands have gone bye bye. Even all my Vortex. I loved those first days at Birdforum. I couldn't get enough of all the amazing optical possibilities. I even went bird watching lol.
 
perterra said:
Yep, really!

This is where it would really pay to do the research that folks like Bill (WJC) has been preaching every since I first read one of his post. Know who you are dealing with. Zen was always a shirt pocket company. Three employees and $250,000 a year in revenue tells me there is the possibility it could go south.

Not knowing what happened isnt the end of the world, but I am guessing you have never been hung up in something when vendor/supplier lawsuits start flying. The first thing company attorneys tell you is keep your mouth shut. Dont say a word to anybody.

I'm sure if you owned a company and it folded, creditors took everything, you would cash out your 401K, borrow money from family, and sell everything you own to repay customers. But in todays business world, folks who do that end up living under bridges.

There is nothing weird about it, in 30 years of business I have been stiffed a couple times a year every year. More than likely theres more people other than his customers taking a bath. Nothing personal in my post, just saying this is a lot more common in business to business relationships than many seem to realize
Click to expand...

I think we are talking about different things. I was saying I didn't see anyone here on this forum wanting a pound of flesh or wishing ZR ill. I don't think it would have cost him or been a legal problem to take phone calls from customers with warranty issues but maybe that's not true. I do know that long long before he and ZR disappeared the customer service was atrocious because I experienced it years ago. No one ever did answer the phone and I finally gave up.

Of course we'll never know why he chose this way of ending things but that just leaves it open to speculation and I can't blame anyone for doing that under the circumstances.

As to what you are talking about, that makes sense and I'm not taking anything you said personally. No worries on that.
 
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edwincjones said:
If Zen-Ray is out of business, should not this forum be shut down?

edj
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No Edwin. See Troubador's posts #26 and 28 as Moderator. The BF management have decided to keep it open. It becomes a historical footnote as for other now defunct brands. Zen-Ray may or may not resurrect in some form, but for owners or potential purchasers of the products the sub-forum is still a useful resource. :t:


Chosun :gh:
 
Chosun Juan said:
No Edwin. See Troubador's posts #26 and 28 as Moderator. The BF management have decided to keep it open. It becomes a historical footnote as for other now defunct brands. Zen-Ray may or may not resurrect in some form, but for owners or potential purchasers of the products the sub-forum is still a useful resource. :t:


Chosun :gh:
Click to expand...

B :)
 
I never thought about that part. It's a drag for sure that some people seem to have lost their Zens when sent for repair. I'd be quite angry and disappointed at that.
 
I've tried bringing up the Zen-Ray site the last couple of days and it has been a no go. What comes up is a page that says Forbidden. Up to this point the home page would display but without functioning links. There was a message saying no orders where being taken while the site was being updated and to check back in early 2018.

http://www.zen-ray.com/

http://www.zen-ray.com/shop/
 
Not likely. They'd get hate mail and a lot of general dressing down. lol

My guess is that a company that would close up shop in that fashion has not thought of ever venturing into the binocular business again under the Zen Ray logo. There's just too many other binoculars out there that have at least a modicum of customer service at this moment. I harbor no ill will towards any person there but I have no respect either. This is one of the effects of the way our type of capitalism functions. It's really all about the money and when a salesman is being nice friendly, helpful and courteous it has a very different meaning than if a friend acts this way. A lot of people and I mean me at times also get or have gotten fooled by not grokking this difference. Now I see poor customer service or even deceitful practices in this business as part of the maze one must navigate to get the binocular safely in one's hands. Nothing happened with Zen Ray that would not very likely happen in any business if the pressures were high enough on the owners. There are notable exceptions but they are becoming very rare in business today. They are the exception that proves the rule. Let the buyer beware.
 
black crow said:
Not likely. They'd get hate mail and a lot of general dressing down. lol

My guess is that a company that would close up shop in that fashion has not thought of ever venturing into the binocular business again under the Zen Ray logo. There's just too many other binoculars out there that have at least a modicum of customer service at this moment. I harbor no ill will towards any person there but I have no respect either. This is one of the effects of the way our type of capitalism functions. It's really all about the money and when a salesman is being nice friendly, helpful and courteous it has a very different meaning than if a friend acts this way. A lot of people and I mean me at times also get or have gotten fooled by not grokking this difference. Now I see poor customer service or even deceitful practices in this business as part of the maze one must navigate to get the binocular safely in one's hands. Nothing happened with Zen Ray that would not very likely happen in any business if the pressures were high enough on the owners. There are notable exceptions but they are becoming very rare in business today. They are the exception that proves the rule. Let the buyer beware.
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Thats a very broad brush your'e painting with. You are being myopic if you think everyone in the customer service business is only being nice to you because they want your money. There are many many customer service people who are genuinely nice people and take great pains to see that you are happy.
 
perterra said:
Thats a very broad brush your'e painting with. You are being myopic if you think everyone in the customer service business is only being nice to you because they want your money. There are many many customer service people who are genuinely nice people and take great pains to see that you are happy.
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This is true and these kinds of salespeople are the ones that want you to come back and do business many times into the future not just on one occasion. But there is no doubt there are some folks who only care about this week's or this month's sales figures.

Lee
 
perterra said:
Thats a very broad brush your'e painting with. You are being myopic if you think everyone in the customer service business is only being nice to you because they want your money. There are many many customer service people who are genuinely nice people and take great pains to see that you are happy.
Click to expand...

Could be true but IMO the majority are not from my 65 years of experience in buying and being in sales the last 19 years of my career. For most it's just a job and they would rather be doing something else. And I can't blame them for that. Very few of us get to pick our jobs.
 
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