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Does EMR harm living organisms?

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Old Saturday 13th October 2018, 21:48   #1351
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I realize you dislike me personally. However, you are allowing that to blind you to a very serious issue that should not be ignored by someone who is allegedly interested in preventing suicides. This is not my field but I can put you in touch with people who know a lot more about this area than I do. If you are interested, send me a private message.
Nothing to do with dislike, you stated wholly incorrect information - that suicide rates have increased with the proliferation of wifi. This is rubbish, end.

And thanks for the offer to put me in touch with someone who knows about suicide - not necessary, as mentioned, I have worked a number of years with someone who is one of Europe's leading experts.
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Old Sunday 14th October 2018, 13:33   #1352
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@ Jos You should look up some of the stats for depression and opioid use. You might also look up SAD syndrome since you seem to be unaware of it. I can only hope your "expert" is not as resistant to new ideas as you are.
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Old Sunday 14th October 2018, 14:31   #1353
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@ Jos You should look up some of the stats for depression and opioid use. You might also look up SAD syndrome since you seem to be unaware of it. I can only hope your "expert" is not as resistant to new ideas as you are.
Still waiting for you to explain why you decided to again post totally false information that you thought would support your view.

You come onto the forum with lies and misrepresentation, you show contempt for anyone with views that do not meet your extreme positions, or alternatively label them as having a commercial interest that invalidates their contribution. The fact that you need to put expert into speech marks says it all.

So there we have it, the world according to Diana - mad dogs, school shootings, declines in species xyz (often fictional), forest fires, global suicides and just about everything else, all down to cell phones and wifi. Amazing.

And let's not forget, according to our resident Prophet of Doom, you are equated to Nazi researchers if you work in the field and, should you be a user of a mobile device, you are guilty of wasting away your life (despite Diana actually using devices more than the average user), are responsible for slave labour for the components (despite Diana also being in this category) and may eternal shame befall you should you do something so frivolous as to call home and say you will be late.

Still, cell phones/wifi does seem rather good at making fruitcakes.
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Old Monday 15th October 2018, 13:35   #1354
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My husband came across this interesting little story of a canary with microwave sickness, which happened when a 3G (1800 GSM) mast was placed on a building opposite, 50 meters away. The bird got sick over a period of around 8 months: it stopped singing, started losing feathers, began pecking at itself. The owner got the Telecom Agency of the Ministry of Economic Affairs to come and measure the radiation in the room--3,000 microwatts per square meter. The canary's owner decided to try to shield the cage, and succeeded in reducing the radiation to 0.5 microwatts per square meter. The bird perked up, started singing again and recovered. You can find the story here (scroll down the page until you get to it) http://www.canaryadvisor.com/CanaryA...ry-tip-20.html

A canary--or any animal--is unlikely to suffer from a psychosomatic disorder. However, even animals do not all have the same reactions to radiation as each other. I mentioned in an earlier post that when we lived near a cell tower our dog developed skin problems. Where we live now, surrounded by many cell towers and Wi-Fi signals (the latter much closer and therefore stronger than the former) one of our dogs is showing the same symptoms: losing hair, dandruff, continually nibbling at herself. The other dog does not appear to be affected. All the symptoms that the first dog has (and has had as long as we have lived here) resolve themselves when we go someplace where the signals are weak or nonexistent; it was the same with the other dog which also had, we now realize, microwave sickness. As with animals, so with people--some are aware of effects and some are not. However, not being aware of effects does not mean that there are no effects. People who develop malignant gliomas or acoustic neuromas from cell phone use may not have had any symptoms of microwave sickness.

It is pretty well accepted now that radiation from wireless infrastructure is affecting migration patterns, despite which plans for 5G and Global Wi-Fi (5G from satellites) are proceeding apace, and more and more wireless applications are being developed all the time. One is a wireless wild bird feeder, currently being developed with the help of EU money. This wireless bird feeder feeds, counts and takes photos of birds, and people will be able to view these activities with Android and iOS apps. You can see it at www.etnobird.com

I needn't say that I find apps which identify, locate and otherwise affect wildlife particularly repugnant, because they show a total lack of concern about the welfare of other creatures. Is the world trying to ensure that birds cannot migrate successfully, cannot breed, cannot find insects to eat because these too are being affected by the anthropogenic radiation blanketing the earth? It would appear to be.

I do not know what it will take to make people realize that what we are doing with wireless technologies is harming us and nature. There are thousands of studies, but who reads them? Most of you do not. Will it take a mass public health crisis to make people realize that what we are doing is wrong? Must we kill all the insects, or all the birds?

EMR is far from being the only problem nature faces, but it is one we can solve if we want to. However, that's not the current narrative. The current narrative, which blames climate change for just about everything, took hold at about the same time as the first smartphone came out. Now, suddenly, climate change is so severe that it threatens our immediate future, and the only solution is an all-electric, wireless world. This message is being constantly disseminated through the mainstream media, and since that's still where most people get most of their information, that's what most people believe, never mind if the climate change argument has more holes in it than Swiss cheese.

A good example of the holes in the climate change argument can be found in the following article: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...l-warming-data
If the data are fraudulent, the climate change argument does not hold up--and it follows that climate change cannot be causing bird and insect species to decline, or anything else that it is being blamed for.

As for the all-electric wireless future, we will need to power that, and the only way we can generate that power is going to be nuclear energy, with all the risks that entails. A good short essay from MIT on that subject, "Why we still need nuclear power" at energy.mit.edu (here is the link but I can't get it to load) https://energy.mit.edu/news/why-we-s...-nuclear-power.
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Old Monday 15th October 2018, 14:05   #1355
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As for the all-electric wireless future, we will need to power that, and the only way we can generate that power is going to be nuclear energy, with all the risks that entails. A good short essay from MIT on that subject, "Why we still need nuclear power" at energy.mit.edu (here is the link but I can't get it to load) https://energy.mit.edu/news/why-we-s...-nuclear-power.
Choose your poison. Carefully controlled nuclear energy or global warming and cancer from diesel pollution.
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Old Monday 15th October 2018, 15:59   #1356
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My husband came across this interesting little story of a canary with microwave sickness, which happened when a 3G (1800 GSM) mast was placed on a building opposite, 50 meters away. The bird got sick over a period of around 8 months: it stopped singing, started losing feathers, began pecking at itself. The owner got the Telecom Agency of the Ministry of Economic Affairs to come and measure the radiation in the room--3,000 microwatts per square meter. The canary's owner decided to try to shield the cage, and succeeded in reducing the radiation to 0.5 microwatts per square meter. The bird perked up, started singing again and recovered.
My wife was told about a parrot which had been Electro-Magnetised by the Great Collider they built at Cern. Apparently, you get miles of wires which run through the middle of the planet which disturb (she said) the teutonic plates. This causes a small shift in atmospheric pressure in the eonosphere. She said that Mavis down at the bread shop has said for years that her self-raisin flour doesn't work like it used to - apparently the Ruskies are doing tests on a bikini with their A bomb and you can't get a wholemeal tin to rise like it used to.

Anyway, back to the parrot which is now so magneticked that it can only fly north. They're waiting for the Magnetic Pole to shift south so it can fly back to get some chips.

PS: Diana, the above isn't intended to mock. But some of your observations are just so off the wall that they can't go unchallenged.

I note you still haven't answered Jos (or anyone else who disagrees with you, come to that).

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Old Monday 15th October 2018, 16:25   #1357
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.....

As for the all-electric wireless future, we will need to power that, and the only way we can generate that power is going to be nuclear energy, with all the risks that entails. A good short essay from MIT on that subject, "Why we still need nuclear power" at energy.mit.edu (here is the link but I can't get it to load) https://energy.mit.edu/news/why-we-s...-nuclear-power.
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Choose your poison. Carefully controlled nuclear energy or global warming and cancer from diesel pollution.
C'mon ! , this is getting ridiculous all round !

At this point, my sister's 'chemtrail' spam is making more sensible reading ............

This world is inundated with solar radiation, and thanks to it's formation and collision with the moon (likely) , has an internal heat source, tilt, and rotation - which, for as long as we have a moon in orbit, and for as long as we orbit the sun, gives us tides, seasons, and winds. We are also subject to gravity (a particularly useful tool for pumped hydro energy storage). There is more than enough renewable energy available to power the world many times over (in concert with storage, and building and transport efficiency - not to mention restoring properly functioning hydrological cycles, soil formation, and old growth vegetation networks).
https://www.carnegiece.com/wave/what-is-ceto/

Aboriginal Australians have been here for at least 65,000 years ...... we call the land that has Uranium ore deposits - "Sickness Country" ..... ding ding !

Perhaps this will help the participants of this thread ??
https://www.cochlear.com/au/home/und...chlear-implant





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Old Monday 15th October 2018, 16:35   #1358
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A canary--or any animal--is unlikely to suffer from a psychosomatic disorder.
Around the year 20 b.w.a(*) my grandma was dying at home. My grandparents had a goldfinch in a cage at home, and my grandpa always told, amazed, how the bird stopped singing for a couple of weeks (when my grandma was worse) and it begun singing again a day after she passed away.

I don't know wether it was true or just his own perception because I was 10 at the time and although I remember the bird I don't recall any special behavior. Anyway it's not difficult to imagine a scared bird in a cage due to the increased activity at home because more family members spent more time at my grandpa's at that time. Of course my grandpa was convinced that the bird was somewhat perceiving the fact that my grandma was dying.


(*) Before the Wireless Apocalypse.
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Old Monday 15th October 2018, 22:47   #1359
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Expert in suicide too now? You have jumped on a statistic to hijack it for your cause. And, once again, you have got it wrong. And certainly wrong to directly link suicides to the growth of wifi - to do this is a disservice to those in the field.

I work with one of the leading professionals in the field of suicide prevention in Europe (and it also has to be mentioned that Lithuania has one of the highest suicide rates in the world). Contrary to your claim, suicide numbers have fallen in many European countries in the same period that wifi has appeared and proliferated.

In the UK case that you allude too, I stand to be corrected, but I believe numbers have not increased overall - the UK male suicide rate in 2017 was of 15.5 deaths/ 100,000, one of the lowest totals for over 30 years, the UK female rate was 4.9 deaths/100,000, a figure consistent for over a decade. That it remains a problem however and deserves the appointment of a minister is without doubt.

Elsewhere, several countries with historically high rates have seen significant declines in rates in the period that wifi has coincidentally expanded - for example, from one of the highest rates in Europe in the 1990s, Finland has seen the rate halve since then. Even in Lithuania's case, a country with both historically very high suicide rates and continuing high numbers, the rate has seen consistent decline, again coinciding with the period of expansion of wifi/4G across the country - for the latest years, 30.41 suicides/100,000 in 2015, 28.3/100,000 in 2016 and 26/100,000 in 2017.
I'm not so sure she hijacked the issue for her "cause," or that that's a fair accusation. The 2016 US suicide rate generally appears to correlate with the historical growth of WiFi. More or less similar suicide statistics were found in 2013. Of course, that's not proof that increasing WiFi availability directly or uniquely causes suicidal behavior, but there's no law of man or nature that precludes chronic neurological effects reported in the literature from contributing to this complex behavior. It's not an unreasonable speculation (theory) by any means, although it might or might not prove to be correct.

Suicides in Europe have generally been on the decline over the same period, which weakens the argument, although three European nations still have rates above the U.S.: Belgium, Finland, and France. Social research is neither easy nor obvious.

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File Type: pdf Suicide rising across the US _ VitalSigns _ CDC.pdf (1.18 MB, 3 views)
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Old Tuesday 16th October 2018, 02:52   #1360
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I'm not so sure she hijacked the issue for her "cause," or that that's a fair accusation. The 2016 US suicide rate generally appears to correlate with the historical growth of WiFi. More or less similar suicide statistics were found in 2013. Of course, that's not proof that increasing WiFi availability directly or uniquely causes suicidal behavior, but there's no law of man or nature that precludes chronic neurological effects reported in the literature from contributing to this complex behavior. It's not an unreasonable speculation (theory) by any means, although it might or might not prove to be correct.
By the same token, it’s not an unreasonable speculation (theory), that the negative correlations between WiFi and suicide reported by Jos for Lithuania and Britain are also causal in nature—the more WiFi (and the huge psychological benefits it confers on the isolated and lonely through enhanced connectivity with far-flung friends and relatives), the fewer suicides. Or, of course, though a somewhat harder case to make (), vice versa—the fewer suicides the more WiFi. . ..
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Old Tuesday 16th October 2018, 09:44   #1361
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@ Jos You do not seem to realize how serious an issue Conflict of Interest (CoI) is. For starters, see what Golumb says about CoI in post 1244 (last point of the take-home messages). The wireless industry is huge, and there are huge vested interests in dismissing any science that finds effects and in ridiculing those who experience effects. You complain that I discount input from those who have ties with the wireless telecoms industry in any way. I do and I will continue to do so, because CoI invalidates studies done with industry money, and invalidates industry-funded scientists' criticisms of non-industry studies. I am not saying that independent studies are necessarily without flaws, but that criticism should come from equally independent reviewers who demonstrably have no axe to grind.

The tenor of your comment makes me suspect that you too are working in the telecoms industry. If so, you are profiting in whatever way from wireless technologies and will unavoidably be biased. I, on the other hand, am independent. No one employs me to make this argument, and my conclusions are my own, based on personal observation and research.

Let's get one thing straight. This is not an argument about technology per se, though there are certainly arguments to be made about the effects of screen time on children and some other issues. This is an argument about the physical effects of pulsed, anthropogenic microwave radiation on living organisms. Since I strongly believe this radiation to be extremely harmful to me and the world around me, I do not use wireless equipment. This is a wired connection. It does not use or generate pulsed microwave radiation. I use a landline to make phone calls. So where exactly is the hypocrisy you go on about? There is none.

Wireless communications are not harmless. They may be useful, they may be entertaining, they may have all sorts of benefits, but the benefits are irrelevant if the radiation from the infrastructure and the devices is harmful to man and nature. You wouldn't understand that, because as far as I can tell you have not read one single piece of all the research posted, and you airily dismiss all observations by myself and others. Your objections are childish because you make no attempt to understand the issues involved. You merely want to shut you ears and eyes while reiterating that I am wrong. In that case, you had better hope with every fiber of your being that I AM wrong, because you are a lot younger than I am and you will have far longer to live with the consequences of what we are doing to ourselves and the planet--if indeed any of us survive.

@ Ed. Thanks for pointing out that social research isn't easy or obvious; statistics as mere numbers have a limited value though trends can be indicative. Also one has to be looking for specific information to confirm or disprove a hypothesis, and that can be very difficult in a new area of research.

@ Borjam You're really stuck on diesel, aren't you? So ban diesel. There are a great many things that could be done to save energy (like using railroads or ships to transport goods, or getting rid of wireless tech) before resorting to more nuclear reactors which are DEFINITELY risky.
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Old Tuesday 16th October 2018, 10:28   #1362
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@ Borjam You're really stuck on diesel, aren't you? So ban diesel. There are a great many things that could be done to save energy (like using railroads or ships to transport goods, or getting rid of wireless tech) before resorting to more nuclear reactors which are DEFINITELY risky.
For the record, it's not that I don't own a car. I don't have a driver's license even. So it's public transport for me or, sometimes, riding the cars of friends and relatives. Or a taxi if I am in a hurry.

Gasoline: Bad for the climate change

Diesel: less Carbon emissions (so less bad for the climate change than gasoline) but a known carcinogenic. And I don't believe the bullshit of car manufacturers about "clean" diesel. Seems now Opel has been caught red handed.

Solar power: Not so clean nowadays. You generate a lot of waste in China in order to manufacture our clean, cute solar panels. How much energy do you need to manufacture one? Someone ironically described solar panels as a sort of energy transport device.

Wind power: It can be irregular. Spain has traditionally relied a lot on dams to generate electricity. But, again, water availability is not guaranteed.

Solar thermal and wind power: bad for birds by the way.

Nuclear: Smaller, properly managed reactors would be almost risk free. There is research under way to better manage nuclear waste. Several years ago I read about some promising experiments turning nuclear waste into almost harmless matter using nuclear techniques.

Nothing in this world is risk free of course. But how many people have been killed by car pollution? How many by nuclear accidents? (Nuclear weapons don't count of course).
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Old Tuesday 16th October 2018, 11:01   #1363
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The tenor of your comment makes me suspect that you too are working in the telecoms industry. If so, you are profiting in whatever way from wireless technologies and will unavoidably be biased. I, on the other hand, am independent.
There we go, more total fantasy
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Old Tuesday 16th October 2018, 14:10   #1364
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SMH .......... . I just cannot believe what I am reading here .....

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Old Tuesday 16th October 2018, 14:48   #1365
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This thread is hilarious!
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Old Tuesday 16th October 2018, 19:30   #1366
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the most entertaining one on BF :)

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Old Wednesday 17th October 2018, 13:17   #1367
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@ Borjam I agree with you assessment of power generating options--except for nuclear energy, and that puts us in a bind. There is no way in reality that anyone can guarantee there won't be accidents: earthquakes are common in many parts of the world, for instance, and the best management in the world will not save you from that. In my books, nuclear is not an option, and with increasing reliance on computer control, with data stored in the cloud, the prospect of someone hacking into a nuclear reactor is both real and potentially devastating. No way. However, we could dramatically lower demands on energy if people were willing to give a few things up here and there. It's unfortunate that there are so many things people say they "cannot live" without: air conditioning, wireless communications, private transport when public transport is available (and reasonably priced) air travel, etc. But when I think of the comments just here on this thread, there is a long list of things no one is willing to give up, or even use less of. It seems man is determined to exterminate himself and the planet, so get on with it.

I thought you might be interested in this: https://medicalexpress.com/news/2018...ers-radar.html
Makes you wonder about the children of fishermen constantly exposed to radar--and of course Wi-Fi uses the same frequency though at lower power.
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Old Wednesday 17th October 2018, 14:16   #1368
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I thought you might be interested in this: https://medicalexpress.com/news/2018...ers-radar.html
It takes me to the home page.

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Makes you wonder about the children of fishermen constantly exposed to radar--and of course Wi-Fi uses the same frequency though at lower power.
Nevertheless I live in the Basque Country, in the Northern coast of Spain. There are plenty of fishermen along the coast, suffice to say that some really big fishing companies are nearby. No effects reported ever.

And that's one of my points. No harm from radar.

No, radar doesn't use the same frequencies as WiFi except for meterorological radar. Merchant shipping, trawlers and recreative boats use 10 GHz if I am not wrong. But I am sure it's not 5 GHz.
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Old Wednesday 17th October 2018, 17:36   #1369
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. . .It's unfortunate that there are so many things people say they "cannot live" without: air conditioning, wireless communications, private transport when public transport is available (and reasonably priced) air travel, etc.. . .
Ah, yes, the dogs, bless their hearts. This gets more comical by the minute. . ..
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Old Thursday 18th October 2018, 13:25   #1370
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@ Borjam I don't think you would know what the effects on fishermen are from radar--who would report if their children had mutations in their DNA? Not the press, certainly. Here is the link again: https://www.medicalexpress.com/news/...ers-radar.html
In case that only gets you to the home page again, the study is called "Typical mutations in children of soldiers at radar installations" so you should find it using the search on their site.

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Old Thursday 18th October 2018, 16:08   #1371
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@ Borjam I don't think you would know what the effects on fishermen are from radar--who would report if their children had mutations in their DNA? Not the press, certainly. Here is the link again: https://www.medicalexpress.com/news/...ers-radar.html
In case that only gets you to the home page again, the study is called "Typical mutations in children of soldiers at radar installations" so you should find it using the search on their site.
Sorry to destroy your great headline, but this is what the article says.


"Until the 1980s, military radar systems were often inadequately shielded against radiation emitted by radar amplifier tubes. Such rays can cause radiation damage to service and maintenance personnel. The Association for the Support of Persons Harmed by Radar Beams is a group of affected people. In 2003, a commission of experts made recommendations on compensatory payments. Since some children of former radar installation soldiers suffer from physical disabilities attributed to the radiation exposure of their fathers, their offspring are now in the spotlight. Whether radiation led to genotype damage in these children is debated."

And what it might be, this radiation? "radiation emitted by radar amplifier tubes" is X-Ray, ionizing radiation.

To elaborate a bit more. A radar, like any radio transmitter, is designed so that the intended radiation, in this case microwaves, is transmited through the antenna instead of wasting it by radiating from the internal components. The radiation emitted by the tubes themselves is a undesirable byproduct. And unless the mainteinance personnel followed very strict protection protocols they were exposed to harmful ionizing radiation which can affect their offspring because it can damage reproductive cells.

A friend of mine did his military service at a military radar station in the Canary Islands, and he asked my why they had to use a lead lined apron when they entered the housing. Because of X-Ray of course. And it's not dangerous, but outright harmful beyond question.

In the 70's X-Rays were handled with a lot of contempt. I remember my doctor, when I was 6 or so, who had a live X-Ray imaging machine. It didn't shoot a quick photograph, but the screen was a live image and, of course, you were receiving a lot of radiation while he looked. He wore a protective apron and gloves but as far as I remember he didn't have any head protection at all.

You have a complete explanation here.

https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCL...6/39016846.pdf

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Old Friday 19th October 2018, 13:55   #1372
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@ Borjam The point I am making is that radar is not safe, and non-ionizing radiation also damages reproductive cells, and also causes genetic defects. Your argument that "people have been doing this for years, therefore it's safe" is utter nonsense. I don't suppose that you bothered to look at the video I also posted yesterday? You will be insisting that EMR in all forms is perfectly safe after the last insect has died, and the last bird has sung. Transmit your final message by radio and maybe an alien species will receive it in a few million light-years when our planet has long since perished.
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Old Friday 19th October 2018, 21:03   #1373
Borjam
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@ Borjam The point I am making is that radar is not safe, and non-ionizing radiation also damages reproductive cells, and also causes genetic defects.
I know, but so far, sorry to be so blunt, you are making it out of thin air. Your latest paper is completely unrelated to this issue.

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Your argument that "people have been doing this for years, therefore it's safe" is utter nonsense.
Well, if it was dangerous effects would already be dramatic.

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Transmit your final message by radio and maybe an alien species will receive it in a few million light-years when our planet has long since perished.
Too late.
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Old Saturday 20th October 2018, 10:39   #1374
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Insect Inspector Video

I don't know how many of you looked at the video I posted day before yesterday. Here is the link again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHhUch5GgtY

I have found on this forum that whenever I post something that absolutely makes my point, it is met with resounding silence followed by absolutely no discussion. I assume, therefore, that the Insect Inspector has in fact made the point I have been trying to make for so long: EMR is lethal to nature, beginning with insects. This man is seeing what I am seeing, and connecting the dots in the same way I have been doing, to much criticism from you lot. Quite frankly, if none of you are noticing insect and bird declines, I think you must either be in an area with very poor wireless services, or you just aren't looking, or you are noticing these things and it doesn't suit you to admit it.

I attach a PDF containing some notes/observations from Dr. Ronald Kostoff on the mechanisms by which EMR may be affecting insects. I may not understand physics very well, but he does.
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Old Saturday 20th October 2018, 19:08   #1375
Jos Stratford
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Quite frankly, if none of you are noticing insect and bird declines, I think you must either be in an area with very poor wireless services, or you just aren't looking, or you are noticing these things and it doesn't suit you to admit it.
Wrong again, and arrogant of you to presume one set of observations (especially your observations with their lack of methodological and numerical fields) are somehow superior or better than the observations that come from the many observers on Birdforum.

You have been provided with plenty of examples of species that are increasing across Europe in areas with 4G, including species that you have repeated quoted as examples that, in your opinion, are declining due to the presence of wifi/4G. Observers are looking, just they are seeing things differently to you. That you choose to ignore this is up to you.

As for insects, no doubt you will find reason to dismiss or ignore, but for butterflies at least, there is no catastrophic decline occurring across Lithuania, a country with 4G virtually everywhere, but probably of more relevance fairly low intensity of agriculture and low usage of agricultural chemicals. In recent years, coincidentally as the country has gone from 3G to 4G, I would say most species have not seen any noticeable change in numbers, while a number of species have increased, some very significantly in the last few years. A good sunny day in summer, near cell phone towers or not, it is a pleasure to observe the abundance of butterflies in the flower meadows and woodland edges, it is no exaggeration that many hundreds, sometimes even thousands, can be present. And there is numerical data to support this, gathered on a near daily basis for each species over the last 15 years.

Naturally a number of butterfly species are declining in Lithuania too, though habitat change is considered largely responsible, particularly the overgrowing of meadows or wetlands by shrubbery due to deintensification of land use.

Even if EMR is causing declines in some areas in Europe or elsewhere, clearly it isn't in others - you are wrong in your quoted assumption.
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Last edited by Jos Stratford : Saturday 20th October 2018 at 19:42.
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