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Does EMR harm living organisms?

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Old Saturday 20th October 2018, 19:17   #1376
fugl
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EMR and declining US fertility rates—

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/17/u...ed-states.html
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Old Sunday 21st October 2018, 08:13   #1377
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EMR and declining US fertility rates—

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/17/u...ed-states.html
Well...the article does not imply EMR is responsible.
Couldn't we simply blame too much time spent on a phone, and not anything else?
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Old Sunday 21st October 2018, 11:33   #1378
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@ Jos You seem to think Lithuania is some sort of special case that is unaffected by things that are affecting the rest of the world. But then again, you're also the man who's trying to defend three presence of 3 cell towers on his personal nature reserve, and the man who thinks mobile communications are more important than indoor plumbing. Other than your own observations, which under the circumstances are somewhat questionable, I haven't seen any detailed observations from anyone on this thread. My own, whatever their defects in methodology, are a great deal more detailed and precise than anyone else's.

Catastrophic insect declines ARE occurring, and insect-eating birds are disappearing as well. After all your shouting that I was twisting facts concerning the German insect study to suit my own agenda, I was quite amused to see, on the Insect Inspector video, that this thought had not only occurred to him, but that he had mapped out the cell towers near the nature reserves in question. I'm not the only person who is linking insect and bird declines to EMR, far from it.

You of course will continue not to believe a word of it until it is far too late to prevent catastrophe. When the nature NGOs, who are at the moment keeping mum on the subject because they're all being funded to some degree by Big Tech and Big Wireless, finally start sounding the alarm, it will be too late. When the mainstream media, which is fully behind wireless technologies and 5G rollout, finally has to acknowledge that something besides climate change is wiping out the natural world, it will be far too late.

You say, "Even if EMR is causing declines is some areas in Europe or elsewhere..." Don't you see that what is happening in one place today can easily happen in another place tomorrow? That it is going to get worse, not better? Has it got to happen on your own doorstep before it matters to you? Lithuania is not some enchanted, magical island. It is a country in the EU, and as such it will be part of 5G rollout, subject to the same laws of physics and nature as everywhere else.
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Old Sunday 21st October 2018, 14:38   #1379
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@ Jos You seem to think Lithuania is some sort of special case that is unaffected by things that are affecting the rest of the world. But then again, you're also the man who's trying to defend three presence of 3strolling l towers on his personal nature reserve, and the man who thinks mobile communications are more important than indoor plumbing. Other than your own observations, which under the circumstances are somewhat questionable, I haven't seen any detailed observations from anyone on this thread. My own, whatever their defects in methodology, are a great deal more detailed and precise than anyone else's.

Catastrophic insect declines ARE occurring, and insect-eating birds are disappearing as well. After all your shouting that I was twisting facts concerning the German insect study to suit my own agenda, I was quite amused to see, on the Insect Inspector video, that this thought had not only occurred to him, but that he had mapped out the cell towers near the nature reserves in question. I'm not the only person who is linking insect and bird declines to EMR, far from it.

You of course will continue not to believe a word of it until it is far too late to prevent catastrophe. When the nature NGOs, who are at the moment keeping mum on the subject because they're all being funded to some degree by Big Tech and Big Wireless, finally start sounding the alarm, it will be too late. When the mainstream media, which is fully behind wireless technologies and 5G rollout, finally has to acknowledge that something besides climate change is wiping out the natural world, it will be far too late.

You say, "Even if EMR is causing declines is some areas in Europe or elsewhere..." Don't you see that what is happening in one place today can easily happen in another place tomorrow? That it is going to get worse, not better? Has it got to happen on your own doorstep before it matters to you? Lithuania is not some enchanted, magical island. It is a country in the EU, and as such it will be part of 5G rollout, subject to the same laws of physics and nature as everywhere else.
Diana,

I'm still not making a judgement one way or the other as there's several papers I'd like to finish, though my research lately has been more concerned with laser surgery advances. Btw - I'd like that 13 minutes of my life back from watching the Insect Inspector video - same old same old.

I had to have a wry smile when the 'inspector' reported empty spiders webs as some sort of proof ..... who did he think made those webs - fairies? Obviously then EMR is not having much effect on spiders themselves then is it? Similarly not all insects are created equal - you have been equating size with fragility throughout this thread, and yet on a human scale some insects would be lifting cars and jumping over tall buildings !

Of all the participants in this thread it seems you are the one who continually dismisses observational reports (such as Jos's) that don't fit in with your narrative. Many here have just tried to tell you of their experience in their neck of the woods - I know I have - birds breeding in my yard (pretty wild - coincidence?), insects buzzing around the lights, and mosquitoes keeping you awake at night. I even have a resident possum who has decided to chew his way into my roof and live there. I can only hope that the 6ft gonna that I have seen strolling through the back yard polishes him off. [Also as states previously our EMR limits here are in line with global standards.]

I don't see anyone claiming this categorically proves things one way or the other - just that there seems to be differences difficult to explain. You seem to be the only one dismissing these anecdotal reports out of hand - seemingly completely deaf to the obvious question this raises - and this propensity is clearly driving some here rather mental !

That question being: that if there are different effects on insects/birds/fauna from differing levels of frequency/power, and roll-out advancement time lines and histories in different locations - then what causes these differences? what effect (if any?) is EMR having? and under what circumstances and to what degree? and what (if any?) are the other causes of observational discrepancy? and what is the magnitude of any effects? Isn't it reasonable to entertain the same possibilities for latitude that you are asking of others?

You may find this quote interesting:
Quote:
The Health Protection Agency (HPA) says that if a person spends one year in a location with a Wi-Fi hotspot, they will receive the same dose of radio waves as if they had made a 20-minute call on a mobile phone.[7]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire...ces_and_health

I for one will be paying extra attention to the insects/birds/wildlife this summer. I hope others do too.




Chosun

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Old Sunday 21st October 2018, 15:05   #1380
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@ Jos You seem to think Lithuania is some sort of special case that is unaffected by things that are affecting the rest of the world.
No, do not think that and have not said that. Just reporting that the country does have a rich array of species that, in many cases, are doing very well. Have also mentioned that it is one of the countries with the most developed 4G networks in Europe.

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... you're also the man who's trying to defend three presence of 3 cell towers on his personal nature reserve, and the man who thinks mobile communications are more important than indoor plumbing
What a lot of shite you really speak - I have no cell towers on my land and would actually never allow a telecom company to build one, what I actually said is that there are three near my land.

Further, I do not remember saying that I personally think mobile communications are more important than indoor plumbing. I do remember saying though that there are quite a number of rural residences in this country that have access to mobile networks, but not indoor plumbing. W

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Originally Posted by Purple Heron View Post
Other than your own observations, which under the circumstances are somewhat questionable, I haven't seen any detailed observations from anyone on this thread. My own, whatever their defects in methodology, are a great deal more detailed and precise than anyone else's.
World according to Diana - if observations do not accord with hers, they must be wrong or for some reason corrupt. Pathetic Diana, pathetic.
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Old Sunday 21st October 2018, 15:36   #1381
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Like Chosun, I am trying to remain open minded on this subject. You may prove to be right and it would of course be important to know but your attitude does not help in your hunt for proof or in persuading others.

But, Diana, why are other's observations of the presence of insects / birds in areas exposed to 4G of less value than your equally anecdotal observations on Samos?

Also why do you accuse many of those who dare to oppose your views on here of some form of bias or vested interest when you have no evidence of any - even to the point of apparently chasing some of the obviously more eloquent, intelligent & reasonable scientists from the thread?
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Old Sunday 21st October 2018, 16:28   #1382
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Well...the article does not imply EMR is responsible. . . .
Yeah, I noticed that also. . .. I wonder why?
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Old Sunday 21st October 2018, 23:14   #1383
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Finally got around to viewing the Insect Inspector video. Most entertaining—highly recommended to those who haven’t already seen it.
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Old Monday 22nd October 2018, 11:22   #1384
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Please sign the 5G space appeal

@ all Look, I never said I had all the answers, and while I can make educated guesses about certain things, they are only that. For instance, I would guess that it is not only the presence of cell towers that accounts for loss of insect and bird diversity, but that the number of users connecting to specific cell towers also plays a role since more users generates more radiation in terms of signals to and from the tower. That is just an example.

What I am saying, and I admit I get sidetracked on occasion, and venture into deeper waters than I can swim in, is this: from what I have personally observed, and from the studies I have read, EMR is having quite a serious effect on man and all living organisms. And I am certainly not the only person who is observing these things and coming to these conclusions. I find it incredibly alarming because I do not want to see this earth's many species wiped out for a technology that is not necessary to sustain life.

Obviously, not all places will be the same as each other; all sorts of variables apply in a complicated world where man seems to be waging outright war on nature. So what I am seeing in Greece, or someone else is seeing in England, may not be the same as what Jos sees in Lithuania or Chosun sees in Australia. But I think we can all agree that the general trend is downward and nature is in serious danger, even if we can't all agree on why this is happening.

I think I have presented enough in the way of studies and observations to make the case that EMR is a factor to be seriously considered. I can't do more than that. I would add that it is not being seriously considered by bodies like the nature NGOs, which I think has more to do with who is sponsoring them than their ignorance of the science. But there is a disconnect somewhere, which you can see clearly when you consider that 5G is included on the 2018 Global Horizon Scan of emerging issues affecting nature, yet the very same bodies that co-authored the report are not demanding a moratorium on 5G until this technology can be properly studied. It has not been studied at all, certainly not for its potential effects on nature. And if we reach a tipping-point in species decline, we will not be able to pick up the pieces and put them back together again.

What I am asking everyone to consider is not whether I have proved my case 100%--I don't think I can do that--but whether I have introduced enough evidence to suggest that EMR MAY be a factor in species decline. In short, I am challenging the narrative that EMR is harmless, that it has no effects on people or nature. And I think I have made that case. Does more work need to be done? Certainly. Given enough time, scientists can work out precisely what effects non-ionizing radiation has on the cells of living organisms. But that work won't be done overnight, and the technology is proceeding much faster than the science. It should be the other way round.

I came on this forum, and created this thread, to ask for a moratorium on 5G and the application of the Precautionary Principle. I am still asking for these things. I am asking for common sense to prevail, and for time for scientists to do their work properly. I think it is a reasonable request.

5G is an untested technology. It is possible that it will have devastating consequences for nature. For 5G to work as envisioned, it has to be global, which means it will only work if there is Global Wi-Fi, in other words if 5G frequencies are beamed down continuously from a network of satellites in space and the upper atmosphere. This means that everywhere will be affected, and there won't be a single corner of our planet that remains free of EMR. Can any of you say, without hesitation, that you are fully confident that Global Wi-Fi will have absolutely no effects other than to improve communications?

If you have even the merest shadow of a doubt that 5G millimeter wave technology is completely safe for us and nature, I ask you to sign the 5G Space Appeal, which has been recently launched and is addressed to the UN, the EU and the governments of all nations. Everyone can sign this appeal, though there are specific categories for different groups, including scientists, doctors etc. I ask you not only to sign it personally, but to disseminate the appeal in any way you can, to collect as many signatures as possible. And I ask you especially to urge nature organizations to sign it, whether they are local organizations or major NGOs.

You can find the appeal here: https://www.5Gspaceappeal.org

Please sign the appeal.

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Old Monday 22nd October 2018, 17:25   #1385
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Nope - not even close to a reasonable argument
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Old Monday 22nd October 2018, 21:03   #1386
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Nope - not even close to a reasonable argument
Viator,

What would it take for her argument to be "reasonable" in your view?

Ed
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Old Monday 22nd October 2018, 21:39   #1387
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A better question would be what would it take to transform her special pleading, verbal thrashings about and ad hominem attacks into something resembling a coherent “argument”.
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Old Tuesday 23rd October 2018, 10:32   #1388
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A better question would be what would it take to transform her special pleading, verbal thrashings about and ad hominem attacks into something resembling a coherent “argument”.
Some ..... of those things aside, and Diana's self-admitted "sidetracks" too - her basic premise is coherent enough and easy to understand. I don't think there's any need to get too hoity toity about it .........





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Old Tuesday 23rd October 2018, 14:14   #1389
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Some ..... of those things aside, and Diana's self-admitted "sidetracks" too - her basic premise is coherent enough and easy to understand. I don't think there's any need to get too hoity toity about it .........
Nothing hoity toity about PH's ad hominem attacks, a bad case of "pot calling the kettle black," selective deafness, and a similarly bad case of "do as I say, not as I do."

My favorite is her assuming since people don't respond, they must agree. LMAO! What hubris; what arrogance. The only responses she wants are re-affirmations, not dissent. And those smart enough to dissent are by-and-large smart enough not to lest they end-up on the wrong end of a character assassination. Been there, done that, and watched others fall victim. Why should anyone spend the time required for a rebuttal under those circumstances?

I appreciate your patience with her, but don't defend her against these basic truths. You either Elkcub...I can appreciate your agreeing with her, but you should consider your own messaging and methods, not encouraging hers.

Anyone showing-up at this stage of the conversation should read back from the beginning and either agree or disagree based on what's already out there. Early-on there were some really, REALLY, smart people involved trying their best to look at each any very one of PH's citations in scientific detail and then respond.

Then judge whether this is cause enough to cancel 5G from happening, or even retroactively swearing-off WiFi and cellular of all sorts.
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Old Tuesday 6th November 2018, 20:15   #1390
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Unexplained Mass Bird Deaths During Dutch 5G Experiment

Hi Diana,

This interesting article appeared TODAY in Erin Elisabeth's Health Nut News.

I wonder what evaluation criteria are used in these so-called "5G experiments," and also if the local communities are apprised beforehand. It amazes me that all laboratory research involving humans must first undergo an elaborate human safety review process that's approved by the NIH, as well as sign-offs from the participants, but apparently not this kind of 'experiment.'

Meanwhile, US agencies are duking it out over the one-and-only consideration that gets any public's attention — cancer! Forget about potential cognitive impairment and adverse reproductive effects. Unfortunately, IMO, the National Toxicology Program report is a questionable basis for making the case.

Ed
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File Type: pdf Federal agencies clash on cellphone cancer risk.pdf (55.3 KB, 10 views)
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Old Tuesday 6th November 2018, 21:54   #1391
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Erin Elizabeth, anti-vaxxer—

https://www.healthnutnews.com/vaccin...ve-doctor-mom/

Jesus wept!
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Old Friday 9th November 2018, 14:27   #1392
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Is it safe to come out now?

Has she gone?

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Old Thursday 29th November 2018, 12:14   #1393
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Hi all,

No Peter, it isn't safe to come out yet. I'm moving house and I'm too busy.

However, some items of interest:

1. As you will see from this item, I am clearly not the only person who associates disappearing birds with cell towers, since an Indian director just made a film about it--and got himself sued by India's Cellular Operators. I find this blackly amusing since, if my understanding of the law is correct, they just put themselves in the position of having to prove wireless technology is safe in order to make their case. Oscar Wilde once made the same mistake.

INDIA: Rajinikanth-Shankar's 2.0 in trouble; Cellular operators association file complaint against filmmakers - Cinema Express, 27th November 2018

The Cellular Operators Association of India (COAI) has filed a complaint against the makers of Rajinikanth-Akshay Kumar’s 2.0 for 'promoting anti-scientific attitudes towards mobile phones and cellular networks'.

In their complaint addressed to the I&B Ministry and the Central Board of Film Certification (CBFC), the non-profit telecommunication association has slammed the film for “falsely depicting mobile phones and mobile towers as harmful to living creatures and the environment including birds and human beings..."

http://www.cinemaexpress.com/stories...kers-8958.html

Rajinikanth-Shankar's 2.0 in trouble; Cellular operators association file complaint against filmmakers
In 2.0, Akshay plays the role of a crazed ornithologist who blames mobile phones for the death of animals and birds resulting from electromagnetic field (EMF) emissions from such devices
www.cinemaexpress.com

2. For those of you who are interested, it might be worth writing to David Attenborough to tell him that EMR is a major threat to all living organisms. Info below. It's easy to blame climate change and pesticides for everything but, in case you have forgotten about the German insect study, climate change should be resulting in more insects in temperate climates--yet it is not.

ACTION: SENT VIA FACEBOOK Sir David Attenborough takes up the UN’s “people’s seat” at a conference in Poland in December and is calling for urgent action to tackle the "biggest threat to this planet in thousands of years".
"The people's seat is meant to represent the hundreds of millions of people around the world whose lives are about to be affected by climate change," Sir David told BBC News. "I will sit there to remind politicians who are working at this conference - and administrators and governments - that they are dealing with real people's futures."
Ahead of the conference, people will be invited to submit their experiences and opinions on climate change to an online poll and conversations on social media, using the hashtag #TakeYourSeat
Where is OUR seat at the table? There is a proven correlation between climate change and microwave radiation, with the latter presenting a far more imminent threat to every living species on the planet.
David Attenborough is associated to the BBC – you can “Email your stories and comments” to [email protected]

3. Yet another person who is associating insect declines with EMR:

Animal Doctor: Electromagnetic fields are contributing to the demise of insects - Tulsa World, 27th November 2018

Dear Readers: Several readers have commented about the demise of insects in their communities. As a veterinarian and a former Fellow of the Royal Entomological Society in the U.K., I have always considered the health and welfare of all species paramount, whether warm-blooded or cold. The loss of insect life is due in part to electromagnetic fields from power lines, cellphone towers and wireless services. These fields impact birds, bees, wildlife and our overall environment. Combined with habitat loss and pesticides, the demise of insects and insectivores is the new norm of the Anthropocene epoch (our current era of significant human impact on the natural world). The consequences are becoming highly detrimental to agricultural productivity, the economy and public health, with the emergence of resistant species and strains of insect pests and carriers of disease, and the extinction of insect predators that previously controlled their numbers and helped maintain biodiversity.

The U.S. Department of the Interior addressed the impact of cell towers on migratory birds in a 2014 letter, saying: “The electromagnetic radiation standards used by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) continue to be based on thermal heating, a criterion now nearly 30 years out of date and inapplicable today.”For more information and documentation, visit ehtrust.org and search for “Bees, Butterflies and Wildlife.”

https://www.tulsaworld.com/scene/ask...Vlnsm0PMwgd_pE

Animal Doctor: Electromagnetic fields are contributing to the demise of insects
Dear Readers: Several readers have commented about the demise of insects in their communities. As a veterinarian and a former Fellow of the Royal Entomological Society in the U.K., I
www.tulsaworld.com


@ Ed It's amazing the way they are trying to spin the NTP study. Let me see if I've got this right, then--rats shouldn't use cell phones but they are safe for humans? But if a drug causes cancer in a lab rat, we definitely shouldn't give it to humans. You gotta love it.
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Old Thursday 29th November 2018, 14:32   #1394
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Gimme a minute...

[various grunting noises]

Okay, almost there...

[creative swearing]

Almost....

[thumping on the ground]

Got it!

http://upic.me/i/nv/olympia_bomb_suit.jpg

Okay...I'm ready to watch the discussion again!
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Old Thursday 29th November 2018, 15:25   #1395
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Okay...I'm ready to watch the discussion again!
What's the point? The Profit of Doom moans that others don't read or pay attention to what she posts, yet absolutely does not herself - yet again she posts the German report on insect declines as support for her hobby horse and once again fails to mention that the authors of that report do not suggest EMR responsible, but in interview do outline their believed cause. This has been pointed out PurpleHeron several times, but if course this little point is not convenient for her narrative, so she ignores it.
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Old Thursday 29th November 2018, 17:06   #1396
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On a more serious note...

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I'm moving house
So you're from Greece, if memory serves?

Can you let us know where in Greece you chose to move to, presumably because it has the least amount of EMR you could manage within your home country?

In the USA, folks with "EMR sensitivity" tend to try to move to places like the United States National Radio Quiet Zone, which doesn't get rid of all EMR, but is the most restrictive that I've ever heard of.

Cheers,
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Old Thursday 29th November 2018, 17:16   #1397
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Originally Posted by Jos Stratford View Post
What's the point?
If she's at some point shown to be correct, there's a learning opportunity.

If we see the return of scientists and other topically intelligent folks commenting, I will learn something there.

I like to think I tend to know when I'm not smart enough to completely understand a topic, and I've learned alot about EMR I didn't know before because of this topic.

Technically, I have to partially thank Purple Heron for that...her sources were the cause of many counter-arguments from people smarter than her and myself, and caused me to do a fair bit of Google- and Wikipedia-diving in addition to their excellent point-by-point rebuttals and equally useful layman's synopses.

Do I think she's barking up the wrong tree, and urinating on anyone who comes near her? Oh my yes. But even that has been a learning opportunity.
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Old Thursday 29th November 2018, 21:10   #1398
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https://www.birdforum.net/showthread...14#post3791314

Note that EMR isn’t even mentioned as a possible reason for insect decline by the authors of this massive study, proof (if any were needed!) that the corruption of mainstream science by Big Cell Phone runs both wide and deep.

Or at least that’s one way of looking at it. . ..
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Last edited by fugl : Friday 30th November 2018 at 01:26.
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Old Thursday 29th November 2018, 23:39   #1399
fugl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalvinFold View Post
If she's at some point shown to be correct, there's a learning opportunity.

If we see the return of scientists and other topically intelligent folks commenting, I will learn something there.

I like to think I tend to know when I'm not smart enough to completely understand a topic, and I've learned alot about EMR I didn't know before because of this topic.

Technically, I have to partially thank Purple Heron for that...her sources were the cause of many counter-arguments from people smarter than her and myself, and caused me to do a fair bit of Google- and Wikipedia-diving in addition to their excellent point-by-point rebuttals and equally useful layman's synopses.

Do I think she's barking up the wrong tree, and urinating on anyone who comes near her? Oh my yes. But even that has been a learning opportunity.
You seem obsessed by IQ, specifically yours vis-a-vis that of “scientists”. Not a healthy attitude, I’m afraid. I wonder if counseling might help?
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Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet."

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Old Friday 30th November 2018, 01:44   #1400
CalvinFold
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You seem obsessed by IQ, specifically yours vis-a-vis that of “scientists”. Not a healthy attitude, I’m afraid. I wonder if counseling might help?
Given that I didn't once mention IQ, your sarcasm is lost on me, I'm afraid.
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