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The Green ghost ( Zeiss SF 8X42 )

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Old Tuesday 10th March 2020, 19:03   #26
mulligatawny owl
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It's only in direct AB comparisons that I can sometimes see a green tint, in normal use they look completely neutral when comparing to the naked eye. To be honest I don't trust what my eye/ brain sometimes does when quickly switching view between bins, I've had them play all sorts of tricks on me with brightness, resolution and colour that make no sense later on.
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Old Tuesday 10th March 2020, 19:10   #27
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Human eyes can be affected with regard to color vision. I have educated quite a lot of students in the use of microscopy and how to interpret the observed images. Since we had originally only monocular microscopes one eye was exposed for longer periods of time to higher light intensities as the other one. As a result of it in my case one eye got another color repsonse curve as the other one. When using both eyes you do not notice it since our "brain computer" makes both signals into one, but if you try to judge color representation of binoculars by using one eye to look at a white surface and the other one looking at the same surface through the binocular you may make mistakes.
I never saw any green tint in the Zeiss binoculars mentioned whatever eye I used.
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Old Tuesday 10th March 2020, 20:47   #28
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Many people talk about "absolute color neutrality" something, never existed and cannot exist, because color depends of:

the left and the right eye of the viewer
the lighting (color, spectrum, CRI, brightness, flicker, ... to mention just a few parameters)
is the viewer tired, sober, ...
does he wear glasses? Are these glasses neutral?
what are the features of the object, you look at?

....

Compared to these, it is pointless to discuss the smallest deviations through good binoculars.
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Old Tuesday 10th March 2020, 22:39   #29
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Originally Posted by Gijs van Ginkel View Post
Human eyes can be affected with regard to color vision. I have educated quite a lot of students in the use of microscopy and how to interpret the observed images. Since we had originally only monocular microscopes one eye was exposed for longer periods of time to higher light intensities as the other one. As a result of it in my case one eye got another color repsonse curve as the other one. When using both eyes you do not notice it since our "brain computer" makes both signals into one, but if you try to judge color representation of binoculars by using one eye to look at a white surface and the other one looking at the same surface through the binocular you may make mistakes.
I never saw any green tint in the Zeiss binoculars mentioned whatever eye I used.
Gijs van Ginkel
It is easy to verify oneself that each eye presents color a little differently.
Simply look at a scene with one eye, then with the other. The color difference perceived is quite startling.
I've no idea how the brain reconciles the differences, as it must when photographers do color matching.
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Old Wednesday 11th March 2020, 00:09   #30
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I got a zero
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Old Wednesday 11th March 2020, 01:32   #31
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Globetrotter:

Do you wear rose colored glasses ? Just trying to find out more about your malady.

Jerry
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Old Wednesday 11th March 2020, 02:01   #32
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Recently I had the chance to compare a black SF 10x42 with a Leica Noctivid 10x42 and Swarovski EL 10x42 SV. The green tint of the SF struck me immediately and bothered me enough to scratch it from my list. See also https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=386879

I’m looking forward to check the new SF 10x32, but if it shows the same tint my choice will be the Swarovski EL 10x32 SV.

(score 0, 38 years)
"My choice will be the Swarovski EL 10x32 SV." I hope you like glare. The 10x32 SV is the worst binocular I have ever used for glare. I would take a little green ham tint any day.
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Old Wednesday 11th March 2020, 02:47   #33
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"My choice will be the Swarovski EL 10x32 SV." I hope you like glare. The 10x32 SV is the worst binocular I have ever used for glare. I would take a little green ham tint any day.
I agree. I bought the 10x32 Swarovision last year and used it two days and returned it. It was the worse glare I have experienced in an alpha Bino. If it wasn’t for the glare I would have loved it.
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Old Wednesday 11th March 2020, 03:43   #34
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"My choice will be the Swarovski EL 10x32 SV." I hope you like glare. The 10x32 SV is the worst binocular I have ever used for glare. I would take a little green ham tint any day.
I had that binocular for almost two years...only a couple of times did I experience glare issues. The VAST majority of times the view was simply excellent.
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Old Wednesday 11th March 2020, 04:50   #35
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So anyone willing to create a “glare ghost” topic in the Swarovski section of this forum and discuss it ad nauseam?
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Old Wednesday 11th March 2020, 05:50   #36
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So anyone willing to create a “glare ghost” topic in the Swarovski section of this forum and discuss it ad nauseam?

That's already happened in some form or another.

Funny how the 'green' topic keeps coming back. Reminds me of the 'era' of the 'dark' EDG that Tobias Mennie unwittingly kicked off a few years back, which was then mentioned repeatedly by certain individuals. Recently Tobias re-canted his prior observations (or Nikon updated their coatings) or sample variation reared its head, and now the EDG is held in high esteem. (some were fine with it all along).
Tobias also seems to think the SF 'lost' its green cast at some point in production. But apparently others still see it.

I'm glad I don't!

-Bill

Last edited by wdc : Wednesday 11th March 2020 at 05:57.
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Old Wednesday 11th March 2020, 08:14   #37
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Very nice, I'll iclude my grey version SF for comparison.
Looks like the first coating versión, they change it now, will be very interesting if you have the chance to compare your SF with another more recent unit
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Old Wednesday 11th March 2020, 13:38   #38
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I had that binocular for almost two years...only a couple of times did I experience glare issues. The VAST majority of times the view was simply excellent.
Chuck. In Alabama you don't have the sun and glare like we do in Colorado and especially in the Rocky Mountains at over 10,000 feet. It makes a big difference when you are trying to look down in a deep mountain valley or up at rocky cliffs high above you or over a highly reflective lake in a mountain valley. I sold my Swarovski SV 10x32 after the first month and then the guy that bought it almost returned it to me for glare.

Last edited by [email protected] : Wednesday 11th March 2020 at 13:42.
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Old Wednesday 11th March 2020, 13:44   #39
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Chuck. In Alabama you don't have the sun and glare like we do in Colorado and especially in the Rocky Mountains at over 10,000 feet. It makes a big difference.
Is glare only evident in strong sunshine? What about snow, lakes, seascapes and skylines? I've experienced this in many parts of the UK, which has less sun and altitude than the Rockies.
Perhaps altitude sickness resulting in mass hallucinations, who knows.
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Old Wednesday 11th March 2020, 14:10   #40
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Is glare only evident in strong sunshine? What about snow, lakes, seascapes and skylines? I've experienced this in many parts of the UK, which has less sun and altitude than the Rockies.
Perhaps altitude sickness resulting in mass hallucinations, who knows.
Pat

Coming as you do from the flatness of Norfolk it probably is due to altitude sickness.

Lee
just joking of course.......
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Old Wednesday 11th March 2020, 16:44   #41
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Hi,

It is strange that I use or have used
Zeiss Victory 8x32 and 7x42
Zeiss Conquest 8x32, 10x32, 8x42
Nikon EDG 7x42, 8x32
Swarovski 12x50, 8.5x42 and SLC 8x56
Leica Noctivid 8x42, 10x42
Fujinon FMT all and many more ...only my SF 8x42 (Black Version 2017) has this clear green tinge!

If you have a penchant for "greenery", this effect should also appear in other binoculars, but is not!
Maybe I should send the binoculars to Zeiss to ask for an exchange if the latest models were better here ...

In the sunshine it is not so noticeable, in the cloudy sky I no longer use the glass ...

Andreas
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Old Wednesday 11th March 2020, 17:14   #42
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[QUOTEMaybe I should send the binoculars to Zeiss to ask for an exchange if the latest models were better here ...
In the sunshine it is not so noticeable, in the cloudy sky I no longer use the glass ...
Andreas[/quote]

I would return them as you suggest and mention exactly your concern about the unit. I too have a 2017 black 8/42 SF and overcast conditions are when this binocular "kicks in" for me. I've found the whole issue quite fascinating but frustrating for those that suffer from this concern.
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Old Wednesday 11th March 2020, 17:29   #43
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Is glare only evident in strong sunshine? What about snow, lakes, seascapes and skylines? I've experienced this in many parts of the UK, which has less sun and altitude than the Rockies.
Perhaps altitude sickness resulting in mass hallucinations, who knows.
At higher altitude the sun is considerably stronger. I am at 6,000 feet altitude and when I go up in the mountains the altitude rises to over 10,000 feet. In North Norfolf you are at about 50 feet altitude. There is a BIG difference in how strong the sun is. The sun is almost 60% stronger. I am not saying you don't have glare but it is much worse here. You also get sunburned much easier!

"The simple answer is that the sun has less atmosphere to travel through. In a study conducted by Ronald O. ... That means that at an elevation of just over 6,000 feet here in Cheyenne, you're exposed to as much as 60 percent more sun than you would be if you were at the same latitude at sea level."

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Old Wednesday 11th March 2020, 17:34   #44
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I believe that there are "green" and more neutral SF, here these discussions always bring nothing.

Many people have looked through dozens of binoculars and suddenly notice a clear green tint in the SF ???
Why now with this glass?
Conspiracy theory?

I saw through two black models, both 2017 both are clearly "greener" than other binoculars!
Nobody can tell me that this is now only related to subjective perception, there seems to be a clear series distribution here,otherwise this phenomenon would also have to occur with other glasses.

Andreas
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Old Thursday 12th March 2020, 02:57   #45
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Here, especially for Jerry, is the Xrite color test.
https://www.xrite.com/hue-test
Thanks, that was fun and reassuring. I scored 0. (Oddly, the "worst" score for males in their 60s was something like 1602106, which seems rather unlikely. Do color vision problems worsen with age?) I've only tried a (black) SF 42 briefly but didn't notice anything unusual or unpleasant about the color, green or otherwise. Am curious to try a 32.

But Andreas is right: defective color vision won't explain the "green ham" business with the SF. There's a very broad, consistent impression that Leicas have a mild warm (I would say reddish-orange) cast, Swarovskis cool or blueish, and (some?) Zeisses greenish (or yellowish as is said in China, thanks Range). I would agree with most of the above myself, and yet (as Alexis said) I'm not struck or bothered by it, as most seem not to be. So the real question is why some people are... how does the brain deal with color casts? Is a green-yellow cast more likely to bother people than warm or cool, and why?

The only contemporary bino whose color I've found unnatural or bothersome was the Nikon SE, which struck me as oddly reddish (not warm like Leica, just red). But those are well liked and I haven't heard many others say that.

Last edited by tenex : Thursday 12th March 2020 at 15:51. Reason: New question
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Old Thursday 12th March 2020, 11:21   #46
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There are too many independent reports now for this effect to be written of as imaginary.

My feeling is that Zeiss source some assemblies from Japan where green tints are culturally desirable.
My impression of my Pocket is also of a green tint. My Leica UV are warm.

My expectation is that someone at Zeiss will read this thread, say ouch, and a small production check and adjustlent will be made, with existing greenish samples earmarked for sale in Japan only.

Edmund
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Old Thursday 12th March 2020, 11:39   #47
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with existing greenish samples earmarked for sale in Japan only.
But why are there "greens" in Europe then?

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Old Thursday 12th March 2020, 11:59   #48
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I don't think the idea of the Japanese having a cultural preference for a green bias holds up when a wider selection of binoculars is included. Since the introduction of multi-coating Nikon binoculars have traditionally had a red bias and that's also my experience with Fujinon. The only Zeiss binoculars I've personally seen with a green bias have been made in Wetzlar. The strongest green bias I've ever seen was from Zeiss/Jena binoculars made in the 1980s using their T3M multi-coating.

Last edited by henry link : Thursday 12th March 2020 at 12:34.
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Old Thursday 12th March 2020, 15:06   #49
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I just performed the test, because so many curious minds want to know. I scored a 2 with my
hardest color to determine is in the 23-24, the blue green.
If I spent more time, I could probably do better. The test colors jump and change around it seems.

Jerry
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Old Thursday 12th March 2020, 16:03   #50
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I just performed the test, because so many curious minds want to know. I scored a 2 with my
hardest color to determine is in the 23-24, the blue green.
If I spent more time, I could probably do better. The test colors jump and change around it seems.

Jerry
Jerry, I saw the same effect you describe with certain intervals. I may have been using a 'dominant' eye. I found if I moved around, closed one eye, then the other, my perception would smooth out.

I believe the test we were pointed to is derived from a more extensive version. I've taken a similar test online a few years back where the number of colors to re-order may have been twice as many, so more subtle gradients to work with. I did not get a zero on that one the first time around. I had to really slow down and study to see the differences.

Enjoy your binoculars, regardless of their color bias!

-Bill
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