Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
More discoveries. NEW: Zeiss Victory SF 32

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

AOU-NACC Proposals 2020

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old Wednesday 20th November 2019, 17:43   #1
Peter Kovalik
Registered User
 
Peter Kovalik's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sp. Hrhov
Posts: 3,136
AOU-NACC Proposals 2020

Proposals 2020-A

2020-A-1: Change the English name of Olive Warbler Peucedramus taeniatus to Ocotero
2020-A-2: Change the generic classification of the Trochilini (part 1)
2020-A-3: Change the generic classification of the Trochilini (part 2)
2020-A-4: Split Garnet-throated Hummingbird Lamprolaima rhami
2020-A-5: Recognize Amazilia alfaroana as a species not of hybrid origin, thus moving it from Appendix 2 to the main list
2020-A-6: Change the linear sequence of species in the genus Dendrortyx
2020-A-7a: Assign Starnoenas cyanocephala to the new monotypic subfamily Starnoenadinae
2020-A-7b: Change the English name of Starnoenas cyanocephala to Blue-headed Partridge-Dove
2020-A-8: Recognize Mexican Duck Anas diazi as a species
2020-A-9: Split Royal Tern Thalasseus maximus into two species
2020-A-10: Recognize Great White Heron Ardea occidentalis as a species
2020-A-11: Change the English name of Checker-throated Antwren Epinecrophylla fulviventris to Checker-throated Stipplethroat
2020-A-12: Modify the linear sequence of species in the Phalacrocoracidae
2020-A-13: Modify various linear sequences to reflect new phylogenetic data
Peter Kovalik is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 21st November 2019, 10:48   #2
Steve Lister
World Birder, ex-County Recorder, Garden Moth-er

 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Loughborough, Leicestershire
Posts: 4,595
'Ocotero' hardly seems English to me.
Steve Lister is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 21st November 2019, 11:22   #3
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 17,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Lister View Post
'Ocotero' hardly seems English to me.
Seems a nonsense to me, what's the reason for abandoning the English name?
__________________
Andy A

Last edited by andyadcock : Thursday 21st November 2019 at 11:47.
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 21st November 2019, 13:02   #4
Maffong
Registered User
 
Maffong's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Posts: 1,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
Seems a nonsense to me, what's the reason for abandoning the English name?
It's explained in the proposal
Olive Warbler is not a warbler. Ocotero is already in wide use through much of its range. It's not like this would be an unusual naming procedure, names like Mannikin, Elepaio, Quetzal, Tapaculo etc. are not particularly English names, either.
Maffong is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 21st November 2019, 14:01   #5
LeNomenclatoriste
Taxonomy and zoological nomenclature
 
LeNomenclatoriste's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: France
Posts: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maffong View Post
Olive Warbler is not a warbler.
What are they waiting for to do the same thing for Parulidae?
LeNomenclatoriste is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 21st November 2019, 14:15   #6
njlarsen
Opus Editor
 
njlarsen's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: St. James, Barbados
Posts: 23,562
If the first part of the proposal had been named:
2020-A-1: Change the common name of Olive Warbler Peucedramus taeniatus to Ocotero

then I think the confusion would have been much less. By stating that it is the English name that gets changed there is an expectation that the proposed replacement actually is in English rather than Spanish.

Niels
__________________
Support bird conservation in the Caribbean: BirdCaribbean

Recently moved to Barbados
njlarsen is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Thursday 21st November 2019, 17:03   #7
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 17,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maffong View Post
It's explained in the proposal
Olive Warbler is not a warbler. Ocotero is already in wide use through much of its range. It's not like this would be an unusual naming procedure, names like Mannikin, Elepaio, Quetzal, Tapaculo etc. are not particularly English names, either.
Well I looked at the link and couldn't be bothered to download a pdf...............
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 21st November 2019, 17:21   #8
Farnboro John
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Farnborough
Posts: 14,529
So which international authorities are looking at these? Is this AOU catching up or breaking new ground? (I like the splits of Royal Tern and Great White Heron )

John
Farnboro John is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 21st November 2019, 17:34   #9
pbjosh
Registered User

 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Buenos Aires
Posts: 1,102
Re: Olive Warbler - this is a essentially a Mexico/Guatemala/Honduras bird that barely makes it into the US and Nicaragua. The vast majority of its range is in Spanish speaking countries. I think that if you see fit to change the name (I'm ambivalent about the necessity), then Ocotero is a great name. The reasoning as to why is in the proposal. This is one of the few cases, in my opinion, where the new name is actually excellent instead of just a compromise or the best of a lot of unappealing options.
pbjosh is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 21st November 2019, 17:40   #10
pbjosh
Registered User

 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Buenos Aires
Posts: 1,102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farnboro John View Post
So which international authorities are looking at these? Is this AOU catching up or breaking new ground? (I like the splits of Royal Tern and Great White Heron )

John
Not sure what you mean by asking which authorities are looking. Just to go over it, apologies if this isn't what you were asking:

In this case, the American Ornithology Assoc has a committee called the North American Classification Committee. Anyone can write up a proposal, and they vote on them, then the changes are made to the NA taxonomy. Clements/eBird essentially follows their decisions except for very rare digressions. More and more IOC is aligning itself with the NACC on North American taxonomy, and with the SACC on South American taxonomy, and Clements/eBird are aligning with IOC on old world taxonomy.

On the Great White Heron, the proposal makes it sound as if it is using new data to reverse a decision that came without a lot of scientific basis in an era when lumping was cool.

I didn't previously know about the African Royal Tern as a possible split, it is based on new genetic research it looks like. The proposal is quite informative, and worth reading. I should imagine that it will get split, though the NACC is still occasionally capable of some painfully conservative votes at times that reject things that many might call obvious :)
pbjosh is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 21st November 2019, 17:57   #11
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 17,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
Not sure what you mean by asking which authorities are looking. Just to go over it, apologies if this isn't what you were asking:

In this case, the American Ornithology Assoc has a committee called the North American Classification Committee. Anyone can write up a proposal, and they vote on them, then the changes are made to the NA taxonomy. Clements/eBird essentially follows their decisions except for very rare digressions. More and more IOC is aligning itself with the NACC on North American taxonomy, and with the SACC on South American taxonomy, and Clements/eBird are aligning with IOC on old world taxonomy.

On the Great White Heron, the proposal makes it sound as if it is using new data to reverse a decision that came without a lot of scientific basis in an era when lumping was cool.

I didn't previously know about the African Royal Tern as a possible split, it is based on new genetic research it looks like. The proposal is quite informative, and worth reading. I should imagine that it will get split, though the NACC is still occasionally capable of some painfully conservative votes at times that reject things that many might call obvious :)
Obviously because we don't all use the same listing authority, I ascribe to the IOC who have not split it as yet, not even in their diary at the moment.

Re the Heron, will white Reef Egrets go the same way?

I like the Tern split too, assuming the IOC apply it..........
__________________
Andy A

Last edited by andyadcock : Thursday 21st November 2019 at 18:03.
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 21st November 2019, 18:00   #12
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 17,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
Re: Olive Warbler - this is a essentially a Mexico/Guatemala/Honduras bird that barely makes it into the US and Nicaragua. The vast majority of its range is in Spanish speaking countries. I think that if you see fit to change the name (I'm ambivalent about the necessity), then Ocotero is a great name. The reasoning as to why is in the proposal. This is one of the few cases, in my opinion, where the new name is actually excellent instead of just a compromise or the best of a lot of unappealing options.
On that basis we can maybe look forward to another 4-5000 species in Spanish or Portuguese, maybe even Welsh?
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 21st November 2019, 18:22   #13
pbjosh
Registered User

 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Buenos Aires
Posts: 1,102
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
On that basis we can maybe look forward to another 4-5000 species in Spanish or Portuguese, maybe even Welsh?
Not what I said at all, and not what anyone else is proposing. This is a strawman argument against a proposal that you have stated you've not even read.
pbjosh is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 21st November 2019, 18:25   #14
awiner
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
On that basis we can maybe look forward to another 4-5000 species in Spanish or Portuguese, maybe even Welsh?
It's also a horribly taxonomically inaccurate name; it's not even vaguely related to any of the warbler families. So, no, they're not just arbitrarily renaming species based on their range.
awiner is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 21st November 2019, 19:29   #15
Kirk Roth
Registered User

 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
Well I looked at the link and couldn't be bothered to download a pdf...............
...but it's an html???
Kirk Roth is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 21st November 2019, 19:57   #16
Farnboro John
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Farnborough
Posts: 14,529
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
Not sure what you mean by asking which authorities are looking. Just to go over it, apologies if this isn't what you were asking:

In this case, the American Ornithology Assoc has a committee called the North American Classification Committee. Anyone can write up a proposal, and they vote on them, then the changes are made to the NA taxonomy. Clements/eBird essentially follows their decisions except for very rare digressions. More and more IOC is aligning itself with the NACC on North American taxonomy, and with the SACC on South American taxonomy, and Clements/eBird are aligning with IOC on old world taxonomy.

On the Great White Heron, the proposal makes it sound as if it is using new data to reverse a decision that came without a lot of scientific basis in an era when lumping was cool.

I didn't previously know about the African Royal Tern as a possible split, it is based on new genetic research it looks like. The proposal is quite informative, and worth reading. I should imagine that it will get split, though the NACC is still occasionally capable of some painfully conservative votes at times that reject things that many might call obvious :)
That's very helpful, thank you very much.

Cheers

John
Farnboro John is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 21st November 2019, 20:46   #17
njlarsen
Opus Editor
 
njlarsen's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: St. James, Barbados
Posts: 23,562
I would like to add that my knee-jerk reaction to reading the name Ocotero was negative exactly because of the way it was presented (as an English name). Having read the actual proposal and used some time thinking about it I am ok with the new name.

Niels
__________________
Support bird conservation in the Caribbean: BirdCaribbean

Recently moved to Barbados
njlarsen is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Thursday 21st November 2019, 22:53   #18
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
 
Nutcracker's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 20,213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Lister View Post
'Ocotero' hardly seems English to me.
It's actually a hybrid Nahuatl-Spanish name; 'Ocote' / 'Ocotl' is Nahuatl for pine, 'ero' a Spanish word ending which can mean 'associated with'. So it effectively means 'Pine Bird'.
Nutcracker is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 21st November 2019, 23:34   #19
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
 
Nutcracker's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 20,213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Kovalik View Post
2020-A-9: Split Royal Tern Thalasseus maximus into two species
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
I didn't previously know about the African Royal Tern as a possible split, it is based on new genetic research it looks like. The proposal is quite informative, and worth reading. I should imagine that it will get split, though the NACC is still occasionally capable of some painfully conservative votes at times that reject things that many might call obvious :)

The data used to support this split, also necessitates the split of Cabot's Tern from Sandwich Tern (accepted several years ago by IOC; still not yet by AOU). It would be odd, and very inconsistent, if AOU accepted this split, while still rejecting the Cabot's Tern split. Surely the two should be considered together?



Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
I like the Tern split too, assuming the IOC apply it..........
It's still in their list of 'Proposed splits', not yet on the accepted list, but I'd guess IOC acceptance is a formality particularly if AOU-NACC accept it.
Nutcracker is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 22nd November 2019, 00:38   #20
pbjosh
Registered User

 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Buenos Aires
Posts: 1,102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutcracker View Post
The data used to support this split, also necessitates the split of Cabot's Tern from Sandwich Tern (accepted several years ago by IOC; still not yet by AOU). It would be odd, and very inconsistent, if AOU accepted this split, while still rejecting the Cabot's Tern split. Surely the two should be considered together?

It's still in their list of 'Proposed splits', not yet on the accepted list, but I'd guess IOC acceptance is a formality particularly if AOU-NACC accept it.
I just went and looked through the 2017 paper on orange-billed terns that is the basis for the Royal Tern split, available here if anyone is interested:

https://academic.oup.com/biolinnean/.../2/439/3065482

The data for the Cabot's / Sandwich split looks very solid, but it's not yet been re-proposed to NACC. I didn't exhaustively scan old NACC proposals, but a Google search makes it look like NACC last considered this split in 2013, so they've not considered this newer data. I should think a proposal will be coming at some point?
pbjosh is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 22nd November 2019, 07:44   #21
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 17,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutcracker View Post
The data used to support this split, also necessitates the split of Cabot's Tern from Sandwich Tern (accepted several years ago by IOC; still not yet by AOU). It would be odd, and very inconsistent, if AOU accepted this split, while still rejecting the Cabot's Tern split. Surely the two should be considered together?

It's still in their list of 'Proposed splits', not yet on the accepted list, but I'd guess IOC acceptance is a formality particularly if AOU-NACC accept it.
Is it, where, would usuall be in the diary?
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 22nd November 2019, 12:31   #22
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
 
Nutcracker's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 20,213
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
Is it, where, would usuall be in the diary?
From the IOC web page, go to the drop-down from 'Updates' and select 'Proposed Splits/Lumps'. Or just click here to go direct; it's currently 16th down the list
Nutcracker is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 22nd November 2019, 12:41   #23
Kirk Roth
Registered User

 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutcracker View Post
The data used to support this split, also necessitates the split of Cabot's Tern from Sandwich Tern (accepted several years ago by IOC; still not yet by AOU). It would be odd, and very inconsistent, if AOU accepted this split, while still rejecting the Cabot's Tern split. Surely the two should be considered together?
I noticed this too - one of my initial reactions to this proposal is that it seemed a "backdoor" way to get a Cabot's Tern split... or in other words if this gets accepted, then its acceptance could be used as further evidence to revisit that one. Note also that there is a point where the authors use the Cabot's/Sandwich pair as evidence of divergent taxa which look the same. I thought it a bold (but appropriate) stance, given the committee's rejection in 2013.

I was struck by the phylogeny from the Collinson paper that was included in the proposal (Figure 1). Just based on this, one might conclude that Elegant and Cabot's Terns should be lumped into one species.
Kirk Roth is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 22nd November 2019, 12:57   #24
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK and Occasionally St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 17,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutcracker View Post
From the IOC web page, go to the drop-down from 'Updates' and select 'Proposed Splits/Lumps'. Or just click here to go direct; it's currently 16th down the list
Thanks Nutty, missed that,
I note that Eastern Black-eared Wheatear is set for splitting too.
__________________
Andy A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 22nd November 2019, 13:16   #25
Melanie
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Kassel, Germany
Posts: 2,950
Anas diazi seems to be a never ending story.
Melanie is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
AOU-NACC Proposals 2015 Richard Klim Bird Taxonomy and Nomenclature 78 Tuesday 25th October 2016 06:59
AOU-NACC proposals 2013 Richard Klim Bird Taxonomy and Nomenclature 147 Friday 28th February 2014 18:23
AOU-NACC Proposals 2010-C Richard Klim Bird Taxonomy and Nomenclature 14 Wednesday 18th May 2011 12:00
AOU-NACC Proposals 2009-B/C Richard Klim Bird Taxonomy and Nomenclature 21 Tuesday 28th September 2010 08:14
AOU-NACC Proposals 2009-D Richard Klim Bird Taxonomy and Nomenclature 5 Friday 16th July 2010 23:36

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.22058296 seconds with 37 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 06:40.