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Help with this Gull (1 Viewer)

A

Aya

Member
Hi all,

This gull was photographed in Israel a few days ago, and considered as a possible 'graellsi' LBB. As 'JANJ' mentioned here, the status of this type in Israel is not clear and therefore an extra caution is necessary here.
I attached a few photos - please note that it is very hard to judge the colors from these (pictures are underexposed). In the field it looked just a bit darker than Armenian Gull, and from some angles even dark as Armenian (with direct compression), lighter than I would expect. I'm also wondering about its structure - especially the bill with its prominent gonydeal angle (compared to 'fuscus').
Can plumage help here? Are there any Heugllinis with such a heavy streaking?
Any comments are highly appreciated.
 

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Hi Aya.
If these images would have been taken i Western Europe, I would have said graellsii, probably a 3rd winter type (white, but small mirror on p10, usually lacking in 2nd cy) They are not though, they are taken in Israel, which complicate things. What is it then, with that rather stout looking bill (looks longer than the avarage armenicus, and notice the pale iris, dark in armenicus), and heavy head and neck streaking which continues down to breast sides. I don´t know of any, near adult looking, winter large white-headed gull in Israel with such extensive head streaking, except possible a well marked heuglini or a graellsii, but the bill looks to stout for a heuglini, at least in these images, similar to the armenicus in pic.4. A bit puzzled, I would say, but the only thing I can come up with is a graellsii or possible (doubtfully though) a well marked heuglini.
Do you have some more images?

JanJ
 
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Hi JANJ,
Thanks for your comment.
I attached another picture of it from behind, showing the extensive streaking on the hindneck. I will check my photos once again, but I don't think that I will find anything more useful - what are we looking for?
We don't get here too many Heugllinis, so I'm probably not aware to its variation. I checked Olsen's guide and nothing said about the streaking of a 3rd winter 'graellsi' as a distinctive feature, although I didn't find yet any picture of Heugllini which is so well marked.
I will try to find this gull again tomorrow, but have a feeling that it is going to stay in my "unident." folder...
 
Aya,
where is the attached new image? Good idea by the way try to find the gull again.
If it weren´t for the dark upperparts, as you mentioned, dark as, or darker than armenicus, one could also go for michahellis, which by the look of it, structurally together with bill size has a certain match. It´s just a thought, which I myself maybe don´t belive in, but...Take a look at the 2nd bird here:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~daarruud/micha/micha3.html

JanJ
 
JANJ said:
Aya,
where is the attached new image? Good idea by the way try to find the gull again.
If it weren´t for the dark upperparts, as you mentioned, dark as, or darker than armenicus, one could also go for michahellis, which by the look of it, structurally together with bill size has a certain match. It´s just a thought, which I myself maybe don´t belive in, but...Take a look at the 2nd bird here:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~daarruud/micha/micha3.html

JanJ
Click to expand...


JanJ, if that's a Yellow-legged Gull I'm giving up on Gulls! ;)

I have never knowingly seen a Cachi. but I presume that they look a lot like the Micha. birds I see daily (save for the lemmon yellow bill and leggs, less black on wings and the larger mirrors).

Cheers,

Dimitris

EDIT:Racial mix up dew to the fact that I'm tired... ;)
 
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I think a side view would help eliminate Yellow-legged Gull (ie the elongated,slender shape of a L.fuscus would be shown)

Then again I may be terribly wrong....

As to what race of fuscus it is. That's very deep water for me. :)

Cheers,

Dimitris
 
i don't think it is michahellis, either - i never saw a micha (nominate race) with such extensive head streaking. the linked bird from ruud's site has much finer and denser streaking creating that hood and the streaking stops under the chin while our bird has less dense but coarse streaking going down to the chest.
maybe it is an extreme streaked heuglini or indeed a graellsii, but somehow i don't get a lbbg-feel on this ind.

have a look at pic. 588 (ad heuglini) in olson's book: streaking is almost identical to our bird! admittingly the bill is short for heuglini.
 
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Dimitris said:
I have never knowingly seen a Micha. but I presume that they look a lot like the Cachi birds I see daily (save for the lemmon yellow bill and leggs, less black on wings and the larger mirrors).

Cheers,

Dimitris
Click to expand...

dimi! micha is yellow-legged gull and you see them daily! cachi is caspian and they're not rare were you live either but breed further north and east ;) ;)
 
lou salomon said:
dimi! micha is yellow-legged gull and you see them daily! cachi is caspian and they're not rare were you live either but breed further north and east ;) ;)
Click to expand...


Look at the time...it's 12:30... yawn... Long day... :king: :'D .

Your right of course. Don't think I have the energy to think after working on an essay for Uni.(reverse what I said in the previos post ;) .Hang on I'll do it me self...)

That's it enough BF for today of to bed.

Goodnight,

Dimitris :smoke:
 
Tim Allwood said:
why is it not an armenicus
Click to expand...

Seconded. I cannot see a strong argument for it being anything else. It's certainly armenicus in structure and mantle colouration obviously varies to a slight extent on an individual basis.

Certainly is no micahellis, cachinnans for obvious reasons and structurally, in addition to mantle colouration, seems at odds for both graellsi and heuglini.

And barabensis... well... similar reasons as to cach although this race is darker mantled, it should still show the 'poetic, elegant' stance and long-billed appearance of a cach in my opinion.

Anyway, Israeli gulls are a bit of a mare. Where was the shot - presumably in the north such as Kfar Rupin or Ma'agan Mikhael?
 
I told you, it was a longshot, michaellis was just a thing to get you guys going (joke) My feeling is that this gull is either a well marked 3rd winter heuglini (but that bill) or a strange looking armenicus. Although the bill looks good for armenicus, the heavy streaking, which usually is confined to the neck, and the pale iris does not (some have paler iris, but not like the subject gull, and usually slightly dark peppered in summer only), but a 3rd winter looking male armenicus with exceptionally streaked head, pale yellowish bill and a pale iris would maybe be a fit, but a combination of all the those characters, well, I have never seen such an armenicus. I´m preytty sure that we can exclude barabensis!
Yes Lou, the well marked adult heuglini would fit Ayas gull, the crisp blackish short streakes on the head as seen in heuglini, though usually not that spread over the whole head in adults, but in some it is, and as in this 3-4cy from november:

http://www.sofnet.org/file/HEUGLINI_ad~MU1.JPG?Path=2&ID=1216&File=HEUGLINI_ad~MU1.JPG

Think I´ll do as Dimitris have done now, hit the bed. Hope Aya finds the gull again so we can continue the discussion!

JanJ
 
At first look, I would say that that bird is an extremly marked heuglini or a graellsii.
By its size coloration, and bill, that bird must be a 3rd winter Armenian, a 2nd
winter heuglini or a 3rd winter graellsii. (of the three i'm not familiar with graellsii).
Although that bill fits more to an armenian, I would rule that species out of the short list.
At least from my limited experience, but after examining a lot of armenians (only at Israel), I would state that the variation with that species is minimal and is restricted to head shape and bulkiness of bill (male vs females) and lightness (not color) of yellow bare parts (individual and seasonal).
As Jan mentioned, eye color of armenians may look paler on some individuals,
but not so pale.
3rd winter armenians don't have sreakings!

Heuglinis on the other hand, have alot of variation including upperparts coloration, sape and size of bill, overall bulkiness,and color of bare parts (most pronanced on leg color).

So I guess, that wing pattern, tail and moult should help with the ID of this bird.

Jan, on one of the photos I can see white markings on the spread wing, can you evaluate them? what are they?

Aya, your desciption of the wing pattern, tail and moult may help to seperate a 2nd winter heuglini from 3rd winter graellsii.

Sassi
 
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Sassi,
the white markings you are talking about that you see in one of the pic. I suppose is pic.4. If that´s what you mean, it´s the white tips to the primary coverts, which are blackish, a sign of the non adult plumage, which you will know I suppose. If you mean the white dott on the primary,close to the wing tip, that would be the small mirror on p10.It´s difficult to see in the image if p10 is fully grown, if not at least nearly so.
As usually a late moulter, compared to other gulls in the region (except fuscus), and to graellsii/intermedius primary, moult of adults is usually completed (giv and take individual variation) Jan-early March. Younger birds however, moults earlier than adult, so a set of fully grown primaries can be seen in. lets say, a 2nd/3rd winter type heuglini, even before Nov, Dec. I think that the subject bird is a 3rd winter type, because of the size of the mirror, and the predominantly unmarked tail and underwing coverts, but might as well be a 2nd winter bird, which also can show a tiny white mirror on p10, which would be rare in a graellsii/intermedius.
Separating a 3rd winter graellsii/intermedius from a 2nd winter heuglini Sassi by the moult score, well due to individual variation, difficult I would say, even if heuglini is a 'late moulter', this refers to adults mainly (also varies, to what degree impossible to say for certain) but immatures, as mentioned moults earlier. This one was found in Spitsbergen in July, but has not been identified for sure, which is a common scenario when dealing with the two from a Western Europe point of view.

http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/lbbg/3cy_01.php

JanJ
 
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can someone explain to me why the bill (shape, size and colouration) isn't an aremenicus. Apparently it's the 'best' single feature.

Also, is the underwing tip pattern visible in one photo not best for armenicus too?. I've never really got into gulls too much until recently so i'm busking a bit. Could it not at least have some armenicus in it? I'm struggling to find much graellsii or heuglini in it?

Tim
 
Tim Allwood said:
can someone explain to me why the bill (shape, size and colouration) isn't an aremenicus. Apparently it's the 'best' single feature.

Also, is the underwing tip pattern visible in one photo not best for armenicus too?. I've never really got into gulls too much until recently so i'm busking a bit. Could it not at least have some armenicus in it? I'm struggling to find much graellsii or heuglini in it?

Tim
Click to expand...

Tim, I'm sure this/these gulls aren't 'Armenian'. To (my) eyes Armenicus has a less heavy bill and always appears as round headed, giving a gentle expression and no where near as 'heavy as this bird.

This gull is, I think, one of the above already mentioned. It is quite heavily built with the typical 'angry' expression of the larger gulls.

John.
 
Tim Allwood said:
can someone explain to me why the bill (shape, size and colouration) isn't an aremenicus. Apparently it's the 'best' single feature.

Also, is the underwing tip pattern visible in one photo not best for armenicus too?. I've never really got into gulls too much until recently so i'm busking a bit. Could it not at least have some armenicus in it? I'm struggling to find much graellsii or heuglini in it?

Tim
Click to expand...

If it's a hybrid (and it doesen't look like one to me.). Then what are the parents? Armenicus and ?

I think it's (almost) imposible for L.fuscus and L.armenicus to meet and breed together. Or am I way off?


Cheers,

Dimitris
 
john barclay said:
Tim, I'm sure this/these gulls aren't 'Armenian'. To (my) eyes Armenicus has a less heavy bill and always appears as round headed, giving a gentle expression and no where near as 'heavy as this bird.

This gull is, I think, one of the above already mentioned. It is quite heavily built with the typical 'angry' expression of the larger gulls.

John.
Click to expand...


Ditto here. Armenian Gulls look like Common Gulls in some way.They look cute 'n' tidy.
 
JANJ said:
Hi Aya.
If these images would have been taken i Western Europe, I would have said graellsii, probably a 3rd winter type (white, but small mirror on p10, usually lacking in 2nd cy)
JanJ
Click to expand...

tim,

this is why the prime pattern seems to look right for armenicus - it is still immature.
quite heavy bill for armenicus
plus too dark mantle
plus too heavy streaking (arm. has usually less)
plus head shape (see dimi's post)

but for me it doesn't look like a graellsii either, that's why my vote goes to heuglin's/siberian gull (again: have a look at pic 587 in olson's book!)
all this of course with caution due to variation in all of these gulls.

did anybody find (another) good pic of a live 3rd winter heuglini on the net?
 
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Hi all!
John is almost right in that armenicus has a rounded head shape, but there isn´t any 'always' in gulls, but the 'angry' expression is good, like between cachinnans and michahellis, 'the good and the bad' cachinnans looks kinder. But I agree that the shape of the head like in pi.1 one usually done´t associate with armenicus. Look at the armenicus lying in the front in the two last pic. I think we can rule the graellsii/intermedius theory out at this point. Question is, can a 3cy armenicus look as streaked like this? As Sassi mentioned in #13, such a well streaked 3cy armenicus ( or adult) is unlikely, and I have never seen one either. The bill, well, it does look a bit short and heavy, wonder by the way if it would look that heavy if it had been longer? Not sure about that, but it doesn´appear as the 'heuglini bill' I want to see. I associate heuglini bills more with cachinnans than I do armenicus, but there may perhaps be the odd individual as to this character.
Tim, the underwing can´t be judged in the same way as the wellknown adult armenicus 'extensive black in primaries' (if that´s what you meant) because it isn´t an adult. Immature large white-headed gulls, from 2cy onwards are very difficult to identify, much individual variation and similarity between species, makes it often impossible to identify certain species, especially in the Middle East, but also In Sout East Asia, we know to little, yet.
Take a look at these fine images from Turkey, and notice the diffenence in heaf shape between some of these, the more round headed are probably females.

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=listpictures&species_id=982

And these, again:

http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=586&show_thumbnails=False

http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/OmanGulls/index.html

JanJ
 
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