Help! Choosing ~10 x ~42 class binoculars (1 Viewer)

Hello all :hi:

I'm new to this site that I've fortuitously stumbled across, and whilst still in the "honeymoon" period would kindly ask for some guidance from you good people, who from the forums I've read, seem impressively learn-ed.

I've had a cursory look through the forums, and while finding some overlap with the above bino's, can't readily find all the answers - please excuse my "noobness" :loveme: if the topic has been done to death elsewhere.

1. I'm looking to plonk down some hard earned on what are probably good value middling binoculars - in an ideal world encompassing:-

• "alpha class" optics,
• lightweight ~600g (~21oz),
• leading FOV and good eye relief (as I wear glasses),
• quality construction /durability,
• low cost ~ closer to $250 or less - there has to be a compelling reason to pay more.

Meanwhile......back in the real world - how close can I get with the above or similar bino's?
I'd really appreciate any guidance and real world comparisons :t:

Which one is best??

• They will be used mainly for birding in open woodlands which range from brown dry grass in drought to lush green vegetation in flood.
• They also need to be useful as all -rounders, and /or forests etc.
• Typical woodland viewing can range from at your feet to 20m (65ft), 25m (80ft), or 30m (100ft) up a tree, or ~90m (~300ft) across a water body etc.
• They really need to shine in watching raptors -anywhere from 10m (33ft) to 500+m (1640+ft) in conditions ranging from daylight to twighlight, glarey to dull, with rain falling at any time (usually when you are about a k (~1/2 a mile) or more away from shelter!)

Easy really!

I'm currently using an old pair of Gerber Sport 7 x 50 porro's that weigh over ~950g (~34oz) - which is too heavy (especially hanging from your neck all day). They do however have 116m (380ft) FOV @ 1000m (1094yd) and are sharp to ~80%+/-5% (you don't really notice until you look for it), fairly bright and clear, but perhaps lacking some resolution and colour saturation compared to the best. I find the magnification a bit limiting for Id.'ing distant raptors - mainly relying on "jizz". I also find that even with the wideish FOV that Id.'ing "gee-whizits" (tiny birds you've never seen before - but annoyingly won't sit still for longer than a 1/4 sec!) to be still somewhat frustrating :stuck:- perhaps a closer, clearer view in that time would help?

• There seems to be some good deals for the bino's above, and the 10.5 x magnification appeals (I think).
• I'm a little concerned that most only have 15mm (0.6") eye relief (anyone use any of these with glasses?), weights lighter than current bino's, so it's mostly down to optics v's price.

• What real world differences are there between PC-2, PC-3, and dielectric coatings? and are all ED glass in the above bino's created equal?

=> Any real world experience and comparisons with these bino's would be greatly appreciated.

So whaddyareckon folks...........which bino's for me?


Also :loveme:
2. As paying the exhorbitant prices here in OZ (2-3x) is completely out of the question - how to I go about freight forwarding from a US address?
Can anyone recommend a trustworthy, efficient, reliable and cheap forwarding company?

Many thanks for your patience and help |;|
Chosun :t:

_________________________________________________________________

Nobody knows you're not a genius until you open your mouth....||

Hi, as I've already quoted before, for the mid range the best binos for my understanding are Nikon. But note that with a 10x42 you should be paying far less than with the 10.5x45 you listed and I dare to say you'll not be losing that much, if altogether. I bought mine (10x42) a couple of years ago and to date it still fulfills all I expect from it: lightweight, astounding views (I wear glasses too), color fidelity, sturdy, weathered construction. So considering your ideal description, I'd definitely say that's the closest real world bino you can find.

Bushnell Legend ED

Chosun,
Thank your for the nice articulation of your problem. Not having personal experience with your candidates, my comments will necessarily be of a general and uselessly vague nature.

Your five criteria for excellence are amusingly contradictory! Really, only you can figure out which are most critical to you. I reckon if you hold fast to low price, you might have two others, max.

I would say, however, cling hardest to eye relief, if a full time glasses wearer. All the other things, even if simultaneously realized in dream time, will come to little, when you face the inevitable annoyance of restricted field of view, wondering where the center really is, each and every time you lift the binocular. In this department you are spoiled by your modest 7x50.

Being a world famous multibillionaire myself, however, I personally recommend sacrificing your final criterion. Also, you might consider Porro prism binoculars, which due to the simplicity of the shaping and coating of the prism, provide a great optical advantage over roofs at any price point. I would spend a microscopically small fraction of my embarrassingly obscene wealth on a Nikon 10x42 SE.

10x is a lot of fun, and bigger birds look great, enjoy! But actually seeing "more detail" at 10x than 7x is, due to the hand shake limitation, not going to be a happen. OK, maybe a hair better sometimes, but nowhere near the 40% gain the magnification difference might suggest. The concurrent loss of field, however, and accompanying difficulty in finding/following, can be counted on.

Pro and con considered, I wish I had a 10x. I have a 12x, and that is completely ridiculous.
Vaguely,
Ron

Chosun,

Just to reiterate what others have said, unless you can find a convenient rock or tree to rest against, you probably wont see any more detail with a 10x than you would with a 7 or 8x , and the narrow field of view can be a pain, particularly at close range.

I looked at a couple of aussie web sites and I see what you mean about the prices!! Financially it would be worth ordering from the US and paying the shipping and taxes. I would be concerned about the validity of the warranty and the cost of returns. With that in mind I might be wary of the newer Chinese EDs (I've seen a number of faulty demo pairs). The Nikon Monarch might be the safest bet. Perhaps not the most exciting option for you budget but a very solid performer with a good reputation for reliability.

David

Chosun,

Just to reiterate what others have said, unless you can find a convenient rock or tree to rest against, you probably wont see any more detail with a 10x than you would with a 7 or 8x , and the narrow field of view can be a pain, particularly at close range.

I looked at a couple of aussie web sites and I see what you mean about the prices!! Financially it would be worth ordering from the US and paying the shipping and taxes. I would be concerned about the validity of the warranty and the cost of returns. With that in mind I might be wary of the newer Chinese EDs (I've seen a number of faulty demo pairs). The Nikon Monarch might be the safest bet. Perhaps not the most exciting option for you budget but a very solid performer with a good reputation for reliability.

David

Chosun Juan said:

Vanguard Endeavour ED 10.5 x 45 v's Bushnell Infinity 10.5 x 45
v's Nikon MonarchX 10.5 x 45 v's Hawke Sport Optics HA3780 Frontier ED 10 X 43 v's Zen-Ray Zen ED2 10 X 43 v's Bushnell Legend Ultra HD 10 X 42 v's
Vanguard Spirit ED 10 X 42 v's Alpen Wings ED 10 X 42 v's ????​

Hello all :hi:

I'm new to this site that I've fortuitously stumbled across, and whilst still in the "honeymoon" period would kindly ask for some guidance from you good people, who from the forums I've read, seem impressively learn-ed.

I've had a cursory look through the forums, and while finding some overlap with the above bino's, can't readily find all the answers - please excuse my "noobness" :loveme: if the topic has been done to death elsewhere.

1. I'm looking to plonk down some hard earned on what are probably good value middling binoculars - in an ideal world encompassing:-

• "alpha class" optics,
• lightweight ~600g (~21oz),
• leading FOV and good eye relief (as I wear glasses),
• quality construction /durability,
• low cost ~ closer to $250 or less - there has to be a compelling reason to pay more.

Meanwhile......back in the real world - how close can I get with the above or similar bino's?
I'd really appreciate any guidance and real world comparisons :t:

Which one is best??

• They will be used mainly for birding in open woodlands which range from brown dry grass in drought to lush green vegetation in flood.
• They also need to be useful as all -rounders, and /or forests etc.
• Typical woodland viewing can range from at your feet to 20m (65ft), 25m (80ft), or 30m (100ft) up a tree, or ~90m (~300ft) across a water body etc.
• They really need to shine in watching raptors -anywhere from 10m (33ft) to 500+m (1640+ft) in conditions ranging from daylight to twighlight, glarey to dull, with rain falling at any time (usually when you are about a k (~1/2 a mile) or more away from shelter!)

Easy really!

I'm currently using an old pair of Gerber Sport 7 x 50 porro's that weigh over ~950g (~34oz) - which is too heavy (especially hanging from your neck all day). They do however have 116m (380ft) FOV @ 1000m (1094yd) and are sharp to ~80%+/-5% (you don't really notice until you look for it), fairly bright and clear, but perhaps lacking some resolution and colour saturation compared to the best. I find the magnification a bit limiting for Id.'ing distant raptors - mainly relying on "jizz". I also find that even with the wideish FOV that Id.'ing "gee-whizits" (tiny birds you've never seen before - but annoyingly won't sit still for longer than a 1/4 sec!) to be still somewhat frustrating :stuck:- perhaps a closer, clearer view in that time would help?

• There seems to be some good deals for the bino's above, and the 10.5 x magnification appeals (I think).
• I'm a little concerned that most only have 15mm (0.6") eye relief (anyone use any of these with glasses?), weights lighter than current bino's, so it's mostly down to optics v's price.

• What real world differences are there between PC-2, PC-3, and dielectric coatings? and are all ED glass in the above bino's created equal?

=> Any real world experience and comparisons with these bino's would be greatly appreciated.

So whaddyareckon folks...........which bino's for me?


Also :loveme:
2. As paying the exhorbitant prices here in OZ (2-3x) is completely out of the question - how to I go about freight forwarding from a US address?
Can anyone recommend a trustworthy, efficient, reliable and cheap forwarding company?

Many thanks for your patience and help |;|
Chosun :t:

_________________________________________________________________

Nobody knows you're not a genius until you open your mouth....||

Click to expand...

No question I would go with the Nikon Monarch in the aperture of your choice. In my experience they represent the best value in the price range you are considering and they are light and compact for a 42mm. They are my favorite low end binocular. For your use you really should consider an 8x42 as I feel it would be a more versatile binocular for you.

None of the Alpha 42mm glasses will meet the 21oz requirement. In addition to what you are considering, you may add Nikon Monarch III 10x42 and Zen-Ray ZRS HD 10x42 into the list. Both have newer dielectric coating. ZRS HD has wider FOV and Monarch has better eye relief. It will be hard to get both "leading FOV and good eye relief (as I wear glasses),"

[email protected] said:

No question I would go with the Nikon Monarch in the aperture of your choice. In my experience they represent the best value in the price range you are considering and they are light and compact for a 42mm. They are my favorite low end binocular. For your use you really should consider an 8x42 as I feel it would be a more versatile binocular for you.

Click to expand...

Ditto, Dennis you have given good advice for meeting the match for a binocular
that meets the budget, and quality that has made this one of the most popular
choices. I agree.

Jerry

chosen, being an aussie fleabay is your friend when buying binos..though places like adorama, BHphoto, OPT are all good to buy from.
10x is hard to handhold -you might look for a pair of secondhand 10x30 canon IS -i prefer porro's to roof's the IS is great, as far as durable i am not so sure...i love my 12x36 IS

Chosun
Your list of binoculars far exceeds your requirement of spending a maximum of $250, as most are in the $350 plus range, and the only one under $250 is the Bushnell Infinity 10.5x45 which is currently selling for $165 here in the USA. It is an excellent bino for the price.

The Zen Ray ZRS and Bushnell Legend Ultra HD's are excellent binos as well, with my current favorite being the 8x36 Legend Ultra HD. I have found nothing that surpasses it in its price range.

Shipping to OZ is about $38 for a pair of binos shipped USPS Priority mail from the USA, and some of the retailers offer international shipping.

Thanks to all :clap: who have contributed their thoughtful posts so far - my head is now decidedly swimming with possibilities :h?:

After yesterday I may now have an additional category to add - toe friendliness! :eek!: |8.| (I was walking down a track with the trusty Gerber 7 x 50 behemoths slung around the neck when they suddenly went "light" - that's right - strap broke & 1kg of metal and glass went hurtling toward my exposed (wearing thongs) right toe! - managed a reflex catch mere inches above disaster that would see me make the current Australian cricket team starting 11 (well - anythings got to be better than present! Well done England)....

I think it would be helpful? if we people concentrate on the optic performance (incl. eye relief), then everyone can make up their minds on the other factors for themselves?

=> lilcrazy - yep, understood, but my list was very much a wish list, and how close to it I could get.........what I'm saying is that I'm reallistically considering ~$200 to ~$450 bino's - not $99 ones, and not $1000+ (although If swarovski could do me a 500g, 9 or 9.5x 45 in carbon fibre, kevlar & titanium for under $1k they'd have a customer)
Within that range I'd like the best optical / FOV / eye relief / weight / range / brightness combo, with the more money left in my pocket the better.....
Where did you see the Bushnell Infinity 10.5 x 45's for $165?
Anyone have direct comparison of this or the 8.5 x 45; with Nikon Monarch's (models w/dielectric only), or the others I originally mentioned?
There seems to be some pretty good deals (at least for US residents) on the Legend Ultra HD's too (jgraider - bins you use with glasses?).........jeez, you US fellas seem to be well treated with deals from Bushnell......pretty compelling value argument if the eye relief suits....

=> Ron - I know what you are saying - you cannot change the laws of physics capt'n ||
I know that magnification is a trade off for FOV and likewise eye relief - but I believe that good design (objective lenses & eyepiece) can offset that somewhat. Same goes for ED glass / more prisms, elements etc versus weight. (swarovski seem to do the best job of overcoming these - their 8x and 8.5x models)
Thanks for the tip on eye relief - as far as I can tell I need at least 15mm pressed, and maybe even up to 18mm.

As for everyone's suggestion on magnification - I hadn't really considered anything other than a 10x until now, after your advice.....

My main watching patterns seem to be spotting for photography, id'ing, watching behaviours -territorial, social etc, feeding habits, hollow locations etc - probably 50/50 raptors / gee-whizzits & parrots, honeyeaters etc (ground & canopy) and is probably more casual (ie while walking, roaming around). One thing I do know is that I seem to be annoyance avoidance driven! - ie. missing an id or detail; & raptors are perhaps ~80% of my interest - and are sometimes a long way away & not considerate enough to fly closer! (particulary the rare things such as black-breasted buzzard, square-tailed kite, black, and grey falcons - and of course I could look at wedgies all day - sweet)

Certainly, willito, david, NWBirder, dennis & jerry (what about ben?!!)8-P all helpfully recommend the Nikon Monarch with dielectric coating and it = an excellent fulfillment / compromise of the criteria. Thanks. (dannat - I think the 10x42 or 12x36 Canon IS appeal, but probably too pricey....)

If I'm to consider 8x.......anybody care to comment on the:
Vanguard Spirit ED 8 x 36 optically in comparison to 42's (all makes, + Nikon dielectrics)?
What about the Zen-Ray Zen ED2 9 x 36?
Vanguard Endeavor ED 8.5 x 45?
Bushnell Infinity 8.5 x 45?
How about the Nikon MonarchX 8.5 x 45? certainly upper end of my range $ - are they worth it optically over all that we've mentioned so far?

I also came across some good technical tests here: http://allbinos.com/107-binoculars_review-Olympus_10x42_EXWP_I.html
which showed the Olympus Magellan EXWPI to be right up ther optically - anyone have any thoughts on these?

Also I have read good things about the Nikon Superior Es 10 x 42 (is that what you were referring to Ron?) - anyone have any thoughts or know where to get em? (or Celestron ED 9.5 x 44's)

Thanks for your considerations, I look forward to your further thoughts.........Chosun

Chosun,
Nikon will make a small batch of SEs, and they will be available for a while, then they'll all run out and rumors of the model's demise start flying, and then they will make another batch. It's been like that for years. But you never know how long this will keep going on. There appear to be some available now:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00006I5JD/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new, and other places too, if you poke around.

To be aware of, in addition to the overall optic and construction excellence of the 10x42 SE, are:
1)It is not waterproof, although most users say normal rainstorm aversion and rainguard deployment is all it takes to protect it.
2)It has loads of eye relief. I think it would be great for glasses wearers, with the old-fashioned soft rubber eyecups folded down.
Ron

But Ron,
You must tell also him about the dreaded "Kidney Beaning.":eek!:
Bob

Ach, can't I just do, like, selective disclosure?

OK, OK. All the SEs share the same eyepiece (source for this exciting fact: Mr. Henry Link)with an, uh, characteristic, that bothers some people. Their very long eye relief that is ideal for for glasses wearers (and some debatable optical gibberish too) coupled with old fashioned rubber eyecups that are not fine-adjustable for height, and thus can't be right for everybody, but are in fact a bit too short for a suspiciously high percentage of users, combine to produce an effect called Adzuki Beaning.

That is, if, especially in bright light, the user scans his eyes to the edge of the field, in a way that is unnatural in normal use, but can be counted on in new users desparately seeking the least troublesome effect, the field on the opposite side from where he is looking will develop long, curved, dark areas, that often appear mottled red and white, known as "Adzuki Beans". It can be quite disturbing. But, not to worry, because despite many investigations and repair efforts, no beans have ever actually been found inside a Nikon SE. Center the bird already, and look at the bird already. Of course there will always be people like Bob who have ZERO discipline, and can't do it. The SE "might" not be for them!

This effect does not bother me in normal use. (I don't own one, but use my Bro and Law's every chance). I really think it is about perfect for glasses wearers.

Whew. Happy New Year!
Ron

Well stated Ron, but fear not as there is a technique in using the SE that neutralizes this which was discovered independently by Steve "mooreorless" and yours truly and which was named the MOLET and later the MOLCET by he who must not be mentioned. Yours truly originally discovered it while using the classically designed Leitz 7 x 42 Trinovid which also suffered from this "Adzuki Bean" effect. It proved effective in using the SE also.

At this time I will turn this rostrum over to Steve who can describe the technique. Please hold your applause until later. Thank you.

Bob

Ron,
thanks for the input (and the full disclosure!), I clicked on the link you included and............... yikes! |8.| arrrgh! and egad! :eek!:
The SE, whilst from all accounts an excellent piece of glass, at circa $700 (given 1/3 to 1/4 of the alpha's) is still a tad high considering the (albeit minor) compromises (6 degree FOV =315ft/105m @1Kyd/1Km, ~16ft=5m close focus, only 16-17mm eye relief.....if I've got all my specs right, & not waterproof - I just can't be trusted!)..........maybe one day if I can get one at the right price, and when I morph into a certified (certifiable?!) bin collector.........but for now I only have 1 pair of eyes 'n' 1 pair o arms ||

I think your advice on the eye relief is the most important factor for me, as I only have about 1.5~2mm to spare with the existing bino's......
:brains: I've done a bit of measurement on the trusty 7 x 50 Gerber's to reveal:
eye relief = ~18.5mm, close focus is ~16ft=5m with a handy 3/4 turn anti-clockwise (270 degrees) from cf to infinity, and distinct false pupils (which are so truncated, they look to have been drawn freehand with crayon by a 3yr old hopped up on red cordial!)

So, it looks like I'm to be hemmed in by the following practical parameters:
Eye Relief = 17mm+, FOV = 330ft/110m+ @1Kyd/1Km, cf < 13ft=4m, cost < $450, weight < ~27.5oz (780g)

Bugger! :C none? of the original ~10x bino's I mentioned will meet the critical ER........
(This may not be such a huge drama after a close encounter with a peregrine falcon showed), details here http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=2018352#post2018352

This leaves only the following contenders:
1. Vanguard Spirit ED 8 x 36 (particularly interested in how this 36mm compares - as they have the bonus of only 18.7oz /530g weight)

2. Alpen Wings ED 8 x 42
3. Bushnell Legend Ultra HD 8 x 42
4. Nikon Monarch III 8 x 42
5. Promaster Infinity ELX 8 x 42
6. Vanguard Spirit ED 8 x 42
7. Zen-Ray Zen ED2 8 x 43

8. Leupold Northfork 8.5 x 45
9. Vanguard Endeavor ED 8.5 x 45

and maybe fringe cheapies: Bushnell Infinity 8.5 x 45, and Pro Optics 10 x 42 (will ER, spec fit? - I can't find any info for it, FOV, or weight)

***Anybody? - opinions / experiences with the relative optics of all the above bino's would be greatly appreciated*** (as my ability to eyeball them is zero out here)

Many thanks again, Chosun :t:

Chosun,
Such is 10x. Of these 8x roofs, but the Zen Ray ED2 is probably the most praised of the lot on this forum. The Monarch is considered very well built, but not so wowee on the view. But I have no direct experience, sorry.

I can imagine that in your location there is not an optics shop on every corner. Perhaps, even, there are no corners!

A 7x50 Porro may seem mundane, but is a very forgiving optic and has many advantages. I mean to say, it may be hard to find a reasonably priced roof that will beat it, view wise. But it is undeniably big and heavy. Try to get a roof with dielectric prisms, like the ED2, especially if you enjoy the crepescular. That extra bit of brightness pulls them up close to a good Porro.

If all else fails, consider the waterproof Vixen Foresta 7x50 Porro. I don't know your Gerber, but if it is old and cheap, the improved coatings of the Vixen will make a big difference to the brightness and viewing clarity, and it weighs only about 29 oz I think. It is popular among folks who actually prefer 7x50s but can't handle the 53 oz individual focus Fujinon , nor afford the Swaro SLC. I myself have a 7x50 Fujinon FMT, and have spent literally thousands looking for a lovely svelt roof that will equal or beat its view, no luck.

I enjoyed your account of the Peregrine sighting. My lone Peregrine was just sitting in a tree a quarter mile away. I waited 20 minutes at least, and he would not budge, much less go 150 mph or whatever. I had things to do, you know, and just left him sitting there.
Ron

Chosun Juan,

I'm in the same dilemma but possibly even more complicated, as I require a binocular that focuses clockwise to infinity.
I have actually found one that is close to our specifications, the Meopta Meopro 10x42.
The pricing may exceed your limit but not by very much.

Unfortunately, there are no reviews at hand, but I had an overall verdict by BF member SPOTTED FLYCATCHER:
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=188519

Another really nice bin is the Opticron Imagic 10x42 BGA SE, but again, it is a bit more expensive.

As you can read, I consider trying a 10x32 or 10x36 if I can find a better eye relief, and the Hawke Frontier ED 10x36 has a stated ER of 16.6 mm.

Your location tells me that the daylight is more evenly distributed than it is in Sweden, where I live. Thus, the period of dusk is not as extended as here, because the sun hits the horizon in a much steeper angle.
So if you want a 10x, I would recommend you to try one with smaller objectives, as some of these have a longer eye relief.

The Columbia Malheur 10x32 by Kruger Optical caught my interest and has a stated ER of 18 mm:

http://www.cameralandny.com/optics2/kruger.pl?page=kruger_malheur10x32

If you find the bin of your desire, please let me know!

Kind regards

L

Hi Bob, I consider this to be a honor to share the name of the MOLCET technique with you. BTW he who must not be mentioned is back on here.

I just tried the "technique" with my Nikon 8x32SE and I held the eyecups against my brow and slightly tilted the binocular out from the bottom and there was no kidney bean what so ever.>>>>>>>

ceasar said:

Well stated Ron, but fear not as there is a technique in using the SE that neutralizes this which was discovered independently by Steve "mooreorless" and yours truly and which was named the MOLET and later the MOLCET by he who must not be mentioned. Yours truly originally discovered it while using the classically designed Leitz 7 x 42 Trinovid which also suffered from this "Adzuki Bean" effect. It proved effective in using the SE also.

At this time I will turn this rostrum over to Steve who can describe the technique. Please hold your applause until later. Thank you.

Bob

Click to expand...