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New Product Introduction Today From Swarovski ?

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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 00:40   #501
eronald
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Originally Posted by RobMorane View Post
OK, let's be honest here and not try to rewrite regular biology. Your peripherical vision can't be better than the others, because biologically speaking, human have a low resolution peripherical vision.

Only the fovea of the eye (a 5 degrees circle in the center of the retina) is high resolution, the resolution drops exponentially on the sides.
I have an indoors set of targets for camera testing (long story) and when I point some binoculars at them I can move my eyes and look at different areas of the target, count squares etc. It seems eyes are up to a point movable, in some people, maybe not all - I defer to your knowledge of anatomy. In fact now I think of that, maybe we scan with the macula by moving the eye. Interestingly, the binoculars I use stay in focus across much of the flat target.

I think some people mount bins on tripods and thus more easily enjoy the view of the whole field.

I have a bench in my garden on which I dump seeds and I sometimes scan my eyes across 5 or 6 birds there, some of which interact, although of course what I do can’t be called birding.

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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 01:13   #502
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Bill, with respect, do you expect an arc field or a flat field?
Edmund
Hi Edmund,

I don’t really “expect” anything. Things are what they are.

I’ve been visiting bino forums since there were bino forums. In that time, I have seen hundreds of speculations that although they’ve popped up hundreds of times, having their importance magnified and embellished, are of little or no validity or importance in the REAL WORLD. And, more often than not, can’t be recognized by most of those who visit them again and again as if inaccurate speculations can turn opinions into facts just because THEY believe it or want it to be so. In my attachment, I just wanted to offer some facts from optical engineering in a more universally palatable way.

— Some people act as if they can tell the difference between two binocular’s AR coatings when they don’t pay any attention to a dozen other attributes that affect that performance and while each person’s physiological sensors may differ tremendously. When we go from a mag fluoride coating to a multicoating, the photometer may record a difference in transmission of ABOUT 13% which is certainly not enough to make a significant impact on the majority of honest observers.

— A novice visiting many bino forums could come away with the notion that about twice a month there was an improvement in binocular technology that is so great 100% of observers could recognize the improvement. I have had to buy a new BS meter because the last two had their needles wrapped around the stop. Fortunately, this one doesn’t have a stop. In the past 100 years, there may have been something over half a dozen improvements that could, in fact, be fairly easily recognized across a spectrum of observers.

“A wise man speaks when he has something to say; a fool when he has to say something.” — Plato

That quote would be totally out of place if, across the board, people would spend 10% as much time in research as they do passing on the first piece of baloney from armchair opticians they come across.

— Some people think the name on the side of a binocular indicates the “quality” of the image, regardless of the fact that almost all the names associated with binoculars are importers only and NOT MANUFACTURERS or that even some of the best manufactures buy some of their rebranded instruments from lower-quality commodity manufactures.

I have often met with stern opposition by citing unpopular facts. And I have had some success. Before I started beating the drum for reality, people talked about their Celestron, Minolta, Swift, Meade, or TASCO binocular. Now, after more than 20 years of “kicking against the pricks,” the more experienced talk about their Kamakura, Katsuma, Tamron, or Yamigami Kogaku Seiakujo*. It was a hard fault battle that didn’t help me one iota. But I did give reality a little traction to those who wanted to know.

Finally, “conditional alignment” was a badly needed term I coined in 1976. But it has only come into use in the last couple of years (thanks to SPIE) although it had been needed since early in the 17th Century. I am now working on “spatial and dioptric accommodation.”

* I don’t know if that company is still in business. It was just picked it from a list of 345 past and current Asian manufactures.’

"Seize on the truth, where'er tis found
On Christian, or on heathen ground
Among our friends; among our foes
Neglect the prickle and assume the rose."

—Rev. Isaac Watts,
Nickerbocker Magazine, New York, Oct. 1836

Yeah, yeah, I know ... back in my hole, now.

Bill

PS Denny, you said, “I know that for a fact. All the biology book's in the world will not change my mind. I know what I see.”

I know what you see, as well. I also know that—as plainly illustrated in #496—YOU CAN’T SEE BOTH IN THE SAME INSTANT.

“The enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it’s the illusion of knowledge.” — Stephen Hawking
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 02:41   #503
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Just to get a thought in edgewise. Here is the situation.

The first chart depicts normal (unaided) eye-head motion limits related to the visual field. The three panels show that eye rotation alone has a max of 35º from center, the head alone has a 60º max from center, and the eye-head combination can rotate 95º from center. Double the numbers for the total binocular field.

The second chart depicts acuity across the retina when the eye is fixated on the center. Each letter is 10 times the smallest size, i.e., the threshold, that can be seen at that off-axis position. So, objects moved from the center to the periphery must increasingly become more and more fuzzy.

What the diagram doesn't show is that the retina is not flat, it's attached to the underside of a spherical cap. Since curvature is not insignificant at large angles like 70º, the area of the cap needs to be taken into consideration when comparing visual receptor areas.

A point to note: The new Swaro binoculars have a 72-78º FOV. The edges of the field are, therefore, about 36-39º off-axis, which is slightly beyond the natural eye rotation limit. Hence, their edges may seem to "disappear" in an effort to find them.* But they will be there if you look straight forward.

Ed

* Current binoculars, like the SLC and EL, have 62-66º fields requiring only 31-33º eye rotation, which is within the 35º limit.
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 02:56   #504
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So Ed have you looked through the NL series?

Andy W.
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 05:38   #505
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In my mind's eye with my peepers closed.

Ed
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 06:44   #506
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I didn't say my peripheral vision was better than other's. I don't know what other's see but I do know what I see and my peripheral vision is good enough to see the edge sharpness of a binocular FOV. I know that for a fact. All the biology book's in the world will not change my mind. I know what I see. Your telling me I can't see the horse in the field when my brain is telling me something different. Sorry, I will have to defer to my brain! I trust it. It hasn't lied to me yet.
Dennis, lol ..... your brain lies to you all the time ! I'll let you in on a little secret - when your brain tells you it's never lied to you ..... that's a lie !!!

I like sharp edges too.

It helps with 'detecting motion' in my peripheral field, and also aids in off-axis snap viewing situations when alignment may not be perfect (it's remarkable the number of rarities, or new for the area, or season, subjects like to make their appearance this way ! - giving you no more a co-operative view than this :)
It also gives the illusion of more brightness at the field edge which I find a reassuring trait.

I cannot however, read license plates at the edge of the Fov with my peripheral vision ....... unless you are from another planet then you won't be able to either ! I doubt you'd even pick a motionless leopard hiding in the brush - that's the point folks are making.








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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 07:26   #507
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Nice summary, Chosun. I'm thinking how some of Dennis' comments about fuzzy edges (or not) where others don't (or do) see them, are shed a whole new light upon now...
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 07:27   #508
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One interesting question is why Swarovski abandoned the open bridge design. Is it because the open bridge design with its complex focusers was too expensive to make, or maybe it was just not as reliable as a more traditional design?

I guess it may well be a combination of both.

What I don't believe is that they switched back solely because they found the ergonomics better. Not after they extolled the virtues of open bridge binoculars for so long.

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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 07:42   #509
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Originally Posted by Hermann View Post
One interesting question is why Swarovski abandoned the open bridge design. Is it because the open bridge design with its complex focusers was too expensive to make, or maybe it was just not as reliable as a more traditional design?

I guess it may well be a combination of both.

What I don't believe is that they switched back solely because they found the ergonomics better. Not after they extolled the virtues of open bridge binoculars for so long.

Hermann
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Deleting that bridge removes some weight from the objectives area. With such a wide fov coupled with a big ER I would think the eyepieces are going to be quite large and heavy. Sounds like the weight might be concentrated at the eyepiece area. The position of the focus wheel and the narrow waist area might dictate the position of the hand too. Add it all up, and yes this is pure speculation, it might be the case that NL has a similar balance to SF42. The hourglass optical tubes and oval cross section where the hands fall are all original though.

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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 08:35   #510
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I read on FB from someone who used it that it has a better balance and a faster focuser (and a huge FOV). I thought for a moment he was testing the SF...
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 09:25   #511
Chosun Juan
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Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermann View Post
One interesting question is why Swarovski abandoned the open bridge design. Is it because the open bridge design with its complex focusers was too expensive to make, or maybe it was just not as reliable as a more traditional design?

I guess it may well be a combination of both.

What I don't believe is that they switched back solely because they found the ergonomics better. Not after they extolled the virtues of open bridge binoculars for so long.

Hermann
It gives them a nice coverage across the ergonomic formats.
Better than duplicating an existing format (in the case of open bridge, despite the benefits that have been sung long and loud, perhaps too close in market positioning to the EL SV to provide sufficient product differentiation) ......

Pockets - folding compact body
CL - high H body
SLC - closed unitary body
EL SV - open bridge body
NL - H style body (with waisted cross section at the focuser, and likely rearward weight bias).

Personally, I would have like to see them just go with an ordinary H style body (such as the Nikon MHG) , and let the natural distribution of glass mass give them somewhat of a rearward weight bias anyway. I would also like to have seen them go with a lightweight CFRP chassis as a 'weigh' of bringing extra wide Fov's to the market without the weight penalty. It would also be a rather ironic raspberry to the Blue Badge, who specifically changed from FRP to likely heavier magnesium for the HT - only to later drop it from the lineup anyway !








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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 10:38   #512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobMorane View Post
Only the fovea of the eye (a 5 degrees circle in the center of the retina) is high resolution, the resolution drops exponentially on the sides.
Yes, but human vision involves saccades, short, fast movements of the eyeball, and the cortex synthesizes a larger image, to work around the limitations of the fovea.

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Originally Posted by Troubador View Post
Hermann
Deleting that bridge removes some weight from the objectives area.
I have relatively small hands and yet I find it hard to get a good firm grip around the barrels in open-bridge binoculars. The fluted tube concept would be pointless with objective-side hinges to get in the way.
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 11:33   #513
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So, what about this forehead support thingamajigit?

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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 11:34   #514
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Yes, but human vision involves saccades, short, fast movements of the eyeball, and the cortex synthesizes a larger image, to work around the limitations of the fovea.
To emphasize what you said (from the same Wiki article), a saccade of 15º, which is the optimal lateral travel shown in my first chart (post #503), moves at a rate of 508º per second — or as many as 34 such large moves per second.* Since they are involuntary, viewers are not aware of these movements and may think their eyes are fixed when directed at a central target.

Ed

* Most moves are much smaller however.
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 11:40   #515
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CJ (post 511),

"SLC - closed unitary body"

This sounds like the shape of the old SLC (with front focus).
The current SLC has an H shape body.
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 12:35   #516
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Diopter knob

Maybe this aspect has been already discussed, but I couldn't find any post about it in this somewhat chaotic thread. So here we go: the dioptric compensation knob appears to be of the "cheap kind", anyway like the one on third tier binos----there is no locking mechanism and so only knob's stiffness can prevent inadvertently moving it to another position (such as when taking the binos out of their bag or when focusing).
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 12:53   #517
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Maybe this aspect has been already discussed, but I couldn't find any post about it in this somewhat chaotic thread. So here we go: the dioptric compensation knob appears to be of the "cheap kind", anyway like the one on third tier binos----there is no locking mechanism and so only knob's stiffness can prevent inadvertently moving it to another position (such as when taking the binos out of their bag or when focusing).
According to the owners' manual (available as a download from the Swaro website) the dioptre adjuster has a detent in the 0 position. Some dioptre adjusters move in discrete increments and have detents. Anyway there is no mention of any locking mechanism.

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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 12:59   #518
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I noticed the NL are stores in their add on their side to make them easier to get out “Functional side bag”.
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 13:54   #519
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CJ (post 511),

"SLC - closed unitary body"

This sounds like the shape of the old SLC (with front focus).
The current SLC has an H shape body.
Oops ! Thanks

It is indeed a H style body (SLC HD) ..... hmm, odd - I've pretty much filed it in the memory banks under 'do not like' ! :) must be memories of the brick like A-K x56's (which are a bit like a HH ).

The old 'Neu' (if that makes sense) in smaller sizes is more what I had in mind.







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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 14:00   #520
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So, what about this forehead support thingamajigit?
LGM
Have you read this thread from the start and subsequently LGM? You mentioned it back in your post #147 (ref. hunters and rifle owners) and it has been discussed at length since then.
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 14:09   #521
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After RB and the Absam ring, could the next phenomenon be Rolling Brow ?, a strange sensation felt from the forehead rest whilst stopping or starting a fast pan
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 14:16   #522
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Oops ! Thanks

It is indeed a H style body (SLC HD) ..... hmm, odd - I've pretty much filed it in the memory banks under 'do not like' ! :) must be memories of the brick like A-K x56's (which are a bit like a HH ).

The old 'Neu' (if that makes sense) in smaller sizes is more what I had in mind.







Chosun
Yep I knew you were imagining the 'neu' version.
Next came SLC HD which was green and black.
The current version is just called SLC and all green.
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 14:41   #523
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I believe I have figured out the main goal of the forehead rest: to achieve its maximum efficiency of some 10% (maybe a bit more for those with critical hand tremors) you have to press it hard on your forehead, which will get a red square mark (the so-called NL stamp) that will identify you as a Swaro owner long after you put the binos back in the case.
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 14:46   #524
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Maybe this aspect has been already discussed, but I couldn't find any post about it in this somewhat chaotic thread. So here we go: the dioptric compensation knob appears to be of the "cheap kind", anyway like the one on third tier binos----there is no locking mechanism and so only knob's stiffness can prevent inadvertently moving it to another position (such as when taking the binos out of their bag or when focusing).


Posts #213, 216, 253 mentioned the diopter.* Some 300 posts ago.
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Old Monday 6th July 2020, 15:00   #525
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Posts #213, 216, 253 mentioned the diopter.* Some 300 posts ago.
Have you found that checking post after post (good luck with doing that when this thread will have no limits, much like the NL's image), or is there a way of using keywords to search within a thread?
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