How to lure raptors to the ground (1 Viewer)

This issue has been discussed many times in so many different forums.

For those of you who don't see a different between baiting raptors and feeding backyard birds, here's an explanation:

The former is putting out meat for an individual bird at a specific point in time, where a human will be present. The latter is putting out seeds and other food for any random bird that stops by regardless of whether a human is around or not.

I have seen cases where there was a roadkilled deer moved away from the road and left out in a field for eagles and other scavengers. That's not baiting because it's done for the safety of the raptors, not for the benefit of a human looking to lure in a particular bird. And again it's for any bird who stops by at any point in time.

For those who can't think of any problem that might arise from baiting raptors, here's a list for you:

- Raptors can learn quickly to associate humans with food. As a result, the raptor may become less fearful of humans.
- If done next to a road, it puts the raptor in danger of being hit by a car.
- If done during nesting season, it can interfere with nesting activities.
- Are you 100% sure that the supermarket meat you're putting out is safe? It's certainly not natural for a raptor to be eating ground beef or pet store mice ...
- Even if you are doing it in a responsible way, others following your example may not.

All of the above puts the baited raptor at risk. So the question you need to ask yourself is, what's more important - the welfare of the bird, or your desire to photograph it? Are you willing to take a chance that either you or someone else seeing your example may have some negative impact on raptors?

Like it or not shark attack, this is what lured all of us into this thread:

How to lure raptors to the ground

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Now go back and reconsider some of the replies you've been so dismissive of, if you'd be so kind.

@gymell: Good post.

Been reading this thread with interest with some good points made by both sides.

The issue of using roadkill I found particularly interesting.If it is so bad/illegal to use roadkill then why are there wild raptor feeding sites (specifically with photographers in mind) using roadkill to lure Eagles etc to come down and `pose` for the photographers lenses?All this is done as a legitimate and legal business.As a photographer myself (and I stress I have never lured a raptor down with roadkill) I have seen endless photos of obviously set up shots with wild raptors including the gallery here.Not once have I seen a comment of disagreement by any BF member.I also know of several professional Wildlife Photographers that have openly said they have used a roadkill Hare or Deer to get shots of particular Raptor species.
Picking up one of gymell`s points about supermarket meat being safe.Gigrin farm use meat from an abbatoir and scatters it in a field for Red Kites and Buzzards but it has to be fit for human consumption.I see nobody criticising them?

As I said,there are good points made by both sides but the scum that wish harm to BOP already know the tricks so really dont need to come here for tips believe me!

Andrew Rowlands said:

Like it or not shark attack, this is what lured all of us into this thread:Now go back and reconsider some of the replies you've been so dismissive of, if you'd be so kind.

@gymell: Good post.

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Ok then listen i will hold my hands up and agree that I may be wrong and I will always agree that when i am wrong I am man enought to admit to it.

I have admitted on here that the way I used to go birding in my younger days was wrong...but please remember some people on here actually agree that luring a Buzzard for a photo isnt as bad as what people are making out to be. Things on here can be a bit over the top and blown out of all proportion especially when I am involved.

All i am saying is its not everone's cup of tea and it it not illegall either. I do now know that after reading all your replies that I could well be in the wrong...but not in everyones eyes.

Please someone google " HOW TO LURE RED KITES " see what you come up with and tell me what you read is right or wrong....Jlees said he wanted one photo of a buzzard...he did not say he was going to be there day in day out waiting for his photo.

If he left something out and got his photo then great.. he does not want to sit there seven days a week waiting for his photo he hasn't probably got the time.

Many a wildlife photographer use these methods and yes they do have permission but does the bird know this...if it is bad practice for Jlees to do it then it is bad practice and not good for the birds for any one to do it wildlife photographer film maker whatever, licence / permission or not.

If the birds safety is at risk why should the wildlife photographer be allowed to make money out of his photos for his/hers calenders or whatever ??

its like anything on here you ask for the best advice and safest way to do things and you get shot down in flames....say nothing and do it and no one will be any of the wiser.

We have lots of people protecting very rare BOP keeping their identity and there position a secret.... and then someone comes along and decides well its OK now for everyone to come and have a look but we are going to charge you £20 a time to do so...we are going to have 4 mini bus trips a day with 15 people at a time thats £300 quid a trip £1200 a day.....is the welfare of the birds on every ones mind now ??

I know this is going of the subject a bit but where does the birds welfare come into this ??? The whole situation of people who want to see birds BOP feed BOP for photos need to be re addressed as far as I am concerned....the secret society that exists in probably many a bird clubs needs to be re - addressed....I know of people that have actually been pointed in the wrong direction who want to photograph birds...even from a safe distance from a public road.

So come on lets have a bit of common sense on here and admit that Jlees original request was not one that is going to put any birds at risk...if it was then requests by wildlife photograpers / film makers would equally put the birds at risk and if that is the case then they should be refused permission as well.

my early posts on here on where to see GE and SE went down like a lead weight but if the truth is known there is good places to see these birds but no one was willing to share this info with me so I had to find out the hard way.

I will re - iterate all the people putting food out for BOP ( especiall red kites ) what harm are these people causing the birds why are they still allowed to do it ??. I have met people who have put carcasses out for GE on the isle of sky to help them to survive and it has worked.....if these people wanted to help them survive but also take a quick photo in the meantime...would we all discourage this practice because the person wanted a photo as well ??? I dont think so.

I think there is a lot of over reaction on here and if we were on about a schedule 1 protected species I would have to hold my hands up and say OK I am in the wrong. But the facts are we are not. How many of us keen photographers on here would admit that we have tried to take a photo of a kingfisher without a licence ?? I bet there is a few in fact a lot more than a few...but instead of trying to go through the proper channels you just get out there on a sunny sinday morning and hope for the best...maybe some people have even the odd branch out across a spot of river and sat and waited an hour or so...............well that is illegall but many people do it....they just dont ADMITT TO DOING IT CAUSE IT IS AGAINST THE LAW.

What Jlees was asking to is not, yet he was met with a barrage of negativity... my advice to anyone on here... this so called "open Birdforum " is not to bother asking anything at all because you will get short sharp swift answers from the people who have probably done all this in their younger days.

mike from ebbw said:

Been reading this thread with interest with some good points made by both sides.

The issue of using roadkill I found particularly interesting.If it is so bad/illegal to use roadkill then why are there wild raptor feeding sites (specifically with photographers in mind) using roadkill to lure Eagles etc to come down and `pose` for the photographers lenses?All this is done as a legitimate and legal business.As a photographer myself (and I stress I have never lured a raptor down with roadkill) I have seen endless photos of obviously set up shots with wild raptors including the gallery here.Not once have I seen a comment of disagreement by any BF member.I also know of several professional Wildlife Photographers that have openly said they have used a roadkill Hare or Deer to get shots of particular Raptor species.
Picking up one of gymell`s points about supermarket meat being safe.Gigrin farm use meat from an abbatoir and scatters it in a field for Red Kites and Buzzards but it has to be fit for human consumption.I see nobody criticising them?

As I said,there are good points made by both sides but the scum that wish harm to BOP already know the tricks so really dont need to come here for tips believe me!

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Very Very very well said...I applaud your honesty and the methods people have used and mentioned on this thread. And admire you for writing your post on this open Birdforum for all to read.

I just wish that we had more people like the farmer up at gruinard leaving food out for very rare species to feed on during bad winters. leaving food out for BOP whether schedule 1 species or not / whether it is to help them survive or to photograph was done more often.

The only thing I would suggest is that the people had the beat equipment availabe to guarantee that the birds were none of the wiser..IE very good hide / camera / and patience.
remember it is only illegall to do this is if you are close to the nesting area which might be classed as intentionally or recklessley disturbing the birds in question. if the breeding area is several mile up the road 2,000 feet up wherever...how could this be classed as disturbance if you are several mile away ??

I unfortunately recently watched a video about a group of several people not including camera crew going to visit the highly publicised SE site at Loch Frisa..where you could here the female and Male Sea Eagles making distress calls above the nesting area.. this i found hard to believe.. and question.. was the birds wellbeing being put before the filmakers film..or was the film about the Isle of Mull and what they have to offer the holiday maker coming first.

Obviously in this instance the birds wellbeing came second. You know we can't have certain rules for certain people and certain rules for others. But unfortunately certain people get permission for their own gains...whilst others have to try and figure out the hard way to pursue their hobby of watching or photographing BOP.

The only chance people on Ardnamurchan have ever had the chance to witness A GE feeding was by us humans leaving food out for them...surely if this was bad practice then they would not have had the green light to go ahead and do it.

I have said before and sick of saying it time and time again that there is many "grey areas" about watching and photogaphing BOP and i am not going to go into all over again.

Anyone looked up the article about feeding Red Kites on Google please get back to me I look forward to your replies...whether these people are right or wrong to do this and secondly are they breaking the tha law.

I look forward to your replies.

regards

david

Mike Price said:

Sorry to disagree but if you pulled your own head out of your arse you would of read that I didn't think a public forum is a place to discuss the best way to lure raptors, I don't care how many ways they already know, do we really want to provide any further ideas or help?

Taking pictures is a very enjoyable hobby, one I take part in myself but it comes second to my other interest which is raptor protection and doesn't involve being behind a desk or wearing an ironed shirt but 100's of hours monitoring and witnessing many instances of illegal persecution.

Buzzards may be common where you are, doesn't mean they are everywhere, sure we see them when the breeding season starts but strangely they never seem to make it to the point where the young would have fledged.

http://birdingfrontiers.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/peak_nestwatch_2010.pdf

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Well I thought I would have One reply from your goodself on your thoughts of the many feeding stations around the uk especially with regards to recent conversations about feeding BOP especially Red Kites.

Sorry you have not had time to reply and even more sorry that you have had time to read this thread and probably could not come up with a valid reply.

Strangely enough for me where I come from we do actually do see a lot of Buzzrds reach maturity and probably go on to bred and produce young of thier own..once again my questions on here have been met with a wall of silence......all I asked for was some answers as to whether feeding stations around northern england where a good thing or a bad thin or a bad idea.

The population of red kites where I comw from are the result of feeding stations....feeding stations that in your case are ilegall and detrimantal to the species in question..I wonder if anyone on here could enlighten us or inform us if the introduction of the red Kites and the food supply given to them by volunteers in the derwent valley is a hinderance or a help to the scces of their breeding rate. This could settle an argument once and for all.

if the re-introduction of these magnificent birds has been detrimantal to their success, and the feeding stations which help keep them alive has played a major part in their success then please feel free to comment... I personally ove to see Red ites flying around up the derwant valley and beyoung has been a great success and the people behing this re-introduction so feel very proud about their achievements...if what your doing goes against nature then i feel very sorry and angry that certain individuals can think in this way.

I know this thread ha changed from Buzzards to Red Kites but the fact is we are trying to help all BOP succeed in life.

Well done to the people who think is OK to feed BOP within the right environment at the right time, and the right place at the right time of year...Good on yer and keep up the good work...even though to some people on her you might b breaking the law......keep up the good work..you are doing some of our endangered species a big favour when food is sparce...especially in winter.....good on you !!!!!!!!!!!!!

oceancol said:

Buy the Liver and I'll swop you for some road kill!!

Just don't waste the Liver333

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Well belive it or not the liver I will be using is not going to attract any BOP..will keep it a secret of what iam hoping to photograph but it aint no BOP, quite the opposite...will keep you posted via private e mail if i get any good results....fingers crossed its a long shot to get a photo but not an impossibility...good luck with you photos anyway which ever method you might to choose to use.


regards

David


david

shark attack said:

Well I thought I would have One reply from your goodself on your thoughts of the many feeding stations around the uk especially with regards to recent conversations about feeding BOP especially Red Kites.

Sorry you have not had time to reply and even more sorry that you have had time to read this thread and probably could not come up with a valid reply.

Strangely enough for me where I come from we do actually do see a lot of Buzzrds reach maturity and probably go on to bred and produce young of thier own..once again my questions on here have been met with a wall of silence......all I asked for was some answers as to whether feeding stations around northern england where a good thing or a bad thin or a bad idea.

The population of red kites where I comw from are the result of feeding stations....feeding stations that in your case are ilegall and detrimantal to the species in question..I wonder if anyone on here could enlighten us or inform us if the introduction of the red Kites and the food supply given to them by volunteers in the derwent valley is a hinderance or a help to the scces of their breeding rate. This could settle an argument once and for all.

if the re-introduction of these magnificent birds has been detrimantal to their success, and the feeding stations which help keep them alive has played a major part in their success then please feel free to comment... I personally ove to see Red ites flying around up the derwant valley and beyoung has been a great success and the people behing this re-introduction so feel very proud about their achievements...if what your doing goes against nature then i feel very sorry and angry that certain individuals can think in this way.

I know this thread ha changed from Buzzards to Red Kites but the fact is we are trying to help all BOP succeed in life.

Well done to the people who think is OK to feed BOP within the right environment at the right time, and the right place at the right time of year...Good on yer and keep up the good work...even though to some people on her you might b breaking the law......keep up the good work..you are doing some of our endangered species a big favour when food is sparce...especially in winter.....good on you !!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I decided to no longer participate in this conversation. I have made my thoughts perfectly clear and you choose to continue with the subject, which you have every right to do.

Offering information of this type in a public forum is to my mind wrong.
Encouraging raptors to become more trusting of people and their bait is to my mind wrong.

The reason I disagree with both of these actions is because raptors in the UK are heavily persecuted and both these things could used against them.

Birds of prey survived for 1000's of years without us using these type of additional feeding methods in times when our winters were far harder than they are now, what they are unable to survive is the relentless persecution that is rife in some areas.

Yes I have been busy something serious came up

Mike Price said:

Encouraging raptors to become more trusting of people and their bait is to my mind wrong.

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So you must think Gigrin is wrong then, Mike?

I don't know how long the good folk at Gigrin have been feeding the Kites but it must be a good few years now, so I'm guessing the many hundreds of Kites have become ''humanised'',yes?

Is there any evidence to show/prove that there's been any adverse effects because of this practise? I doubt it!!!!! (5 exclamation marks)

I've googled Gigrin Kites and this came up: http://www.gigrin.co.uk/......and they feed the birds during summer......Hmmm...Infact, they've been doing it 365 day a year for 18 years...........and surely CB's get attracted to the farm, or do they get shoo'd away because they're not allowed to be there??

There are actually a few things that spring to mind that could be considered adverse effects of stations such as Gigrin farm.
From limiting dispersal, reliance, vast numbers of birds staying in one place instead of migrating a real hard winter could hit them hard and finally disease could easily spread in such an environment, I don't doubt in some cases short term feeding can have a lot of benefit for some species but do we really know the long term implications 3-4 generations from now? do we know that there will be enough interest to maintain the feeding and if not what will become of these birds?
Are we maintaining artificially high numbers of some species that could have an adverse effect on other species?

None of that is what concerned me about this thread though, what concerned me was sharing the tips for the best way to lure raptors in an open forum where anyone could easily access it, I know its not beyond most people to think of a way to lure raptors but do we have to spell it out quite so easily for them? and it's not just the shooting industry that is to be thought of here, pigeon owners and people who believe that the increase in raptors is damaging for other bird species.

As I said my participation in this is over my view point wasn't considered to be valid and as such there is no point in continuing discussing it as we are unlikely to come to an agreement on it.

I should also point out that persecution is far less of a problem in Wales if that were to change then what an easy target Gigrin farm birds could become.

Mike Price said:

.....there is no point in continuing discussing it as we are unlikely to come to an agreement on it.

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Ageed! :t:

The Hairy Highlander said:

Ageed! :t:

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Yeah- as with so many subjects where oppinions are divided, just agree to disagree- but i do feel The Shark (david) has put a very good argument, and many are in that "camp" so to say-
just not members of bird clubs and flooded with their beliefs to the point of believing all what is told to them and to refute any argument!

we are all interested in the birds well being- just share different oppinions on how to do it i suppose!

So can some one please tell us if bating raptors with a feeding station is leagle during the breeding season in the UK.

dafi said:

So can some one please tell us if bating raptors with a feeding station is leagle during the breeding season in the UK.

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Gigrin and Llandeusant Kite feeding stations feed 365 days a year so it must be.The meat fed though must be fit for human consumption.

dafi said:

So can some one please tell us if bating raptors with a feeding station is leagle during the breeding season in the UK.

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I suppose with the amount of feeding stations for red kites not far away from here another in wales and more in dumfries and galloway..im sure it must be legal. The guy who feed SE up at gruinard does not seem to get any hassle from the law or protectionists.

Please remember this post headlines "how to lure raptors" i am in all agreement that doing this to attract GE and SE harriers and other rare species i would not advocate......my advice was about 1 particular raptor namely a Common Buzzard...this is certainly not illegall.

Like i have mentioned before the law has many gery areas when its comes to birds of prey. Obviously disturbing them in or near the nest...feeding them in or near the nest you might be in for a bollocking from the authorities...but we must remember we were talking about a particular raptor that is not protected.

Whether it is right or wrong from the protectionists point of view it is not for them to decide it is the law of the land which makes the rules and not them.

We all no it i wrong to 34 mph in a 30 zone an we can discuss it till the cows come home but at the end of the day it is up to the copper at the end of the road with his speed gun to take the action...not every tom dick and harry on a motoring forum ( if there is one ).

I still cannot get my head around how luring a buzzard down at the end of a forest is being irresponsible breeding season or not. I have been watching a pair of kestrels feeding there young for the last three days...they were not bothered in the slightest...no problems.....too many people once again blow everything out of proportion on here......end off.

regards

david

Andrew Rowlands said:

The methods may indeed be similar, the experience of the 'baiter' and legality are probably very dissimilar.

One off ?! How many people do you see now carrying long lenses into the field? Should we openly encourage them all to bait birds of prey just so they can have record photographs of them? And should we be discussing this at all during the breeding season?

Leave them alone or visit Gigrin.

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Who mentioned in the middle of a field ?? Not me..............

shark attack said:

...but we must remember we were talking about a particular raptor that is not protected.

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Actually SA, Common Buzz IS a protected species....

I still don't see the harm in puttin a bit'o meat out for a bird now and again though....This could rumble on for some time I reckon!! :-O

shark attack said:

Who mentioned in the middle of a field ?? Not me..............

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You just did, try reading the posts.

Who are you trying to convince and of what?

Stephen Fletcher said:

It is actually against the law to lure birds of prey. Firsty due to the diturbance caused, and secondly, it is also illegal to put down meat, especially rooadkill, as it will have been transported from another area, with risk of disease transfer from one site to another.

Film makers do this, as they have a licence to do so, all the necessary permissions, and strict safety regulations that they have to adhere to.

Reading up on the law before posting such a thread as this would surely have been far more sensible.

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Can you please back up your story on how feeding a BOP is disturbing.

If you are on about the that is coming down for its free meal...if it was disturbed it would recline the offer of a free meal. Are all the red kites disturbed by there free daily intake ?? Are the residant SE up at gruinard disturbed by their free daily intake ?? if we had more farmers like the one in question we would not have disturbed birds, but a lot more of them still alive today. Do you know how many BOP die each year through lack of food especially in bad winters ?? Do you know how many barn owls now survive a lot longer because people like me who make nest boxes for them ?? reading up on the law before posting on here i do not have to do because i know what helps these BOP survive..you obviously do not. Have you ever took the time to make nest boxes for little owls to nest in...well let me tell you this, I have...and some not all are being used...does the law forbid this...I am helping these fantastic birds stay alive and reproduce and all you go on about is the law.... the law is an ass...most of your top lawmen or judges especially from scotland come from the shooting fraternity and could not give a shite about the welfare of BOP... I am proud to say that I do, and that If i was involved or in the position to jail these B******* who poison them then I would but that just does not happen....so dont come on here preaching to me that i should read up on the law before I post. I do my bit with no harm caused......Thank you.

Regards

David

Andrew Rowlands said:

You just did, try reading the posts.

Who are you trying to convince and of what?

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Oh oh.....If I was Harry Hill, I'd be very tempted to shout ''FIGHT!!....:-O:t: