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Swarovski - odd business policy - near point

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Old Friday 3rd July 2020, 20:37   #1
OhWeh
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Swarovski - odd business policy - near point

I took a look at the website:

The 8,5x42 EL has only a close-up limit of 3,3 meters (formerly 1,5 meters!)
10x42 EL has only a close-up limit of 3.3 meters (formerly 1.5 meters!)

8x32 EL still 1,9 meters
10x32 EL still 1.9 meters

both 42 SLCs 3.2 meters (formerly much closer)

CL Pocket 8x25 2,5 meter

CL Companion 8x30 3 meters
CL Copanion 10x30 3 meters

1. Swarovski deliberately deteriorates its 42 FGs in order to keep the technical distance to the respective top model.

2. If I want to observe butterflies, newts, lizards, wild bees, flowers with Swarovski, then I can either use the 32 EL series, or the super expensive NL series! All other FGs, now also the 42 ELs, are not to be recommended any more, except for pure birdwatchers and other long-distance watchers, due to the bad near point.

3. IMHO the 8x42 SLC is so good that you can leave the 8,5x42 behind, because the real advantage of the EL, the near point, is no longer there.

Tried and tested models, and "legends" to deliberately worsen - not nice!

So if you still want a 42 EL, you should hurry up and see if you will still can get an old model before you buy it.
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Old Friday 3rd July 2020, 20:53   #2
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I’m glad I got my 8.5x42 FL Field Pro a few months ago so I have 1.5m close focus.
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Old Friday 3rd July 2020, 21:22   #3
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what's really the big deal..? All of a sudden everyone is looking for a reason to .... All you had to do was buy then and surely stock in stores like B&H has your "MEGA CLOSE" Focusing..
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Old Friday 3rd July 2020, 21:40   #4
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Enough other brands to choose from
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Old Friday 3rd July 2020, 21:42   #5
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Enough other brands to choose from

You are exactly correct as its is only a reason to whine about something..You want a pair of close focus buy them right now as many in stock like B&H in NYC
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Old Friday 3rd July 2020, 22:27   #6
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Well, I'm annoyed by marketing techniques like this as well but don't share the surprised comments. As if Swaro never would do something like that. They really aren't saints either, really... They're running a business. Loads of other quality products to choose from, best thing: almost always cheaper!
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Old Friday 3rd July 2020, 23:31   #7
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Swaro had already reduced the close focus in the latest version of the 42mm SLCs a few years ago. I wonder whether that makes for a smoother or more robust focus system, but it sure looks like arbitrarily crippling a product to make it less competitive with the higher-end one, which of course at the time was... EL 42!
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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 00:21   #8
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The answer is NO, it wasn't improved. As a matter of fact focus speed was slowed down within the overlap range of the new and old models. We had a long thread on that subject at the time. The results have presumably been good for the bottom line, however, since they're using the same playbook today. Interesting strategy, but it makes me cringe.

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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 01:23   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhWeh View Post
I took a look at the website:

The 8,5x42 EL has only a close-up limit of 3,3 meters (formerly 1,5 meters!)
10x42 EL has only a close-up limit of 3.3 meters (formerly 1.5 meters!)

8x32 EL still 1,9 meters
10x32 EL still 1.9 meters

both 42 SLCs 3.2 meters (formerly much closer)

CL Pocket 8x25 2,5 meter

CL Companion 8x30 3 meters
CL Copanion 10x30 3 meters

1. Swarovski deliberately deteriorates its 42 FGs in order to keep the technical distance to the respective top model.

2. If I want to observe butterflies, newts, lizards, wild bees, flowers with Swarovski, then I can either use the 32 EL series, or the super expensive NL series! All other FGs, now also the 42 ELs, are not to be recommended any more, except for pure birdwatchers and other long-distance watchers, due to the bad near point.

3. IMHO the 8x42 SLC is so good that you can leave the 8,5x42 behind, because the real advantage of the EL, the near point, is no longer there.

Tried and tested models, and "legends" to deliberately worsen - not nice!

So if you still want a 42 EL, you should hurry up and see if you will still can get an old model before you buy it.
The original 8x42 SLC-HD and 10x42 SLC-HD had a close focus of 1.8m or 5.9ft. The replacements focused to 10.5ft, nearly twice the distance.
Apparently, Daniel Swarovski's principle of "constantly improving what is good," was interpreted to mean "... for the bottom line."

Ed
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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 04:00   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkcub View Post
The original 8x42 SLC-HD and 10x42 SLC-HD had a close focus of 1.8m or 5.9ft. The replacements focused to 10.5ft, nearly twice the distance.
Apparently, Daniel Swarovski's principle of "constantly improving what is good," was interpreted to mean "... for the bottom line."

Ed
Ed,

An Engineering 'cost-down' modification is one thing (especially if it brings some other performance benefits - faster focus where needed, or smoother etc) - but I don't think it is ever good business to treat your customers with contempt !






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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 04:28   #11
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Do these new close distance specs reflect actual hardware changes or could this maybe just be a different tune in advertising? In order to keep the new flagship shiny and undisputed?
Could it be that they technically still build the very same binocular? Or has the manufacturing site or partner changed somehow?

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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 04:35   #12
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I don't think the close focus on the SLC stopped anybody from buying them nor will it the EL. I don't think too many people buy a $2K binocular for bug's. If you want a bug binocular just buy a Papilio for $129.00. Hunter's and birder's will still buy the EL's because they are priced considerably lower than the NL and they know they are an excellent binocular and a 10 foot close focus is fine for both sport's. If you want the best then you buy the NL. Swarovski will sell a lot of the NL's in 10x42 and 12x42 for the bigger FOV because you can glass faster with it covering more area and with the head rest you can use it one handed holding your bow or gun in the other hand. Birder's will like the 8x42 NL for the huge FOV, head rest and fast focuser. There are 22.5 million birder's and 12.5 million hunter's so together they are a big market compared to the bug watcher's. Swarovski doesn't care about bug watcher's because they are such a small market segment!

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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 05:59   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
Ed,

An Engineering 'cost-down' modification is one thing (especially if it brings some other performance benefits - faster focus where needed, or smoother etc) - but I don't think it is ever good business to treat your customers with contempt !

Chosun
Hi Chosun,

My feeling is that the company has a very unique and (apparently) effective way of product marketing, but I don't think it involves customer contempt. Rather it's simply cold dispassionate reasoning designed to maka da monyee.

I got my first dose of this sort of thing years ago when the Brooklyn Dodgers moved to Los Angeles. They left all their lifelong fans behind.

Psychologically, we customers somehow believe that manufacturer's "care" for us. But caring is something humans do, not corporations. The blunt reality is they just have to maka da monyee.

So long as SONA provides great customer service, which they continue to do, I can live with it. But, by the same token, it's appropriate to discuss how they do business since it grounds us in reality.

Ed
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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 07:14   #14
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To cut a long and (somewhat painful) story short, we really wanted to find a way to be able to keep the EL alive. After all, many of us are still very emotionally attached to the EL. But it arguably could never have survived at its current price position alongside the NL Pure, and simply reducing the selling price just creates losses.

Regardless of how much we did not want to change the performance of the EL, Ed was not too far from the truth in that we we forced to take a cold business decision to save costs - and that is exactly what simplifying the focusing mechanism allows us to do. I never heard a single person mention hamstringing.

Long story short: we were proud of the 1.5m we achieved with the EL. Reducing it to 3.3m was incredibly painful. But it does help to allow us to significantly save costs and sell the EL at a much reduced price.
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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 07:23   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Forbes View Post
Long story short: we were proud of the 1.5m we achieved with the EL. Reducing it to 3.3m was incredibly painful. But it does help to allow us to significantly save costs and sell the EL at a much reduced price.
that's a pretty honest and clear answer. As I understand (with my limited understanding of how binoculars work and close focusing works), the focus wheel travel to go from shortest distance to, let's say, 3-4 meters is as much as the travel from 3-4 meters to infinity.

So the short distance focus takes a lot of the focus wheel travel, and in terms of design, a big chunk out of the length / width of all parts (be it internal wheels, shafts,...) of the focus mechanism. So I can understand that restricting the focus distance to 3-4 meter effectively makes it easier to produce and reach strict tolerances.

And as the Bulbmogul mentioned: if you go out now to the shop, you can have the opportunity to find a short-distance focusing EL x42 for the reduced price, that is, if the shopowner doesn't have 2 price settings (one for the old, one for the 'new' EL )

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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 07:26   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Forbes View Post
To cut a long and (somewhat painful) story short, we really wanted to find a way to be able to keep the EL alive. After all, many of us are still very emotionally attached to the EL. But it arguably could never have survived at its current price position alongside the NL Pure, and simply reducing the selling price just creates losses.

Regardless of how much we did not want to change the performance of the EL, Ed was not too far from the truth in that we we forced to take a cold business decision to save costs - and that is exactly what simplifying the focusing mechanism allows us to do. I never heard a single person mention hamstringing.

Long story short: we were proud of the 1.5m we achieved with the EL. Reducing it to 3.3m was incredibly painful. But it does help to allow us to significantly save costs and sell the EL at a much reduced price.
Hi Dale,

Thank you for clarifying this I thought this was the case for the change in spec. I can only imagine the amount discussion that went on to be able to keep the iconic EL in Swarovski’s line up. I have had a pair of EL field pros now for about five months and am very pleased with them.

Neil
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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 07:51   #17
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Classy to get an honest explanation from a, seemingly, Swaro rep

Guess some will hunt down pre-2020 EL's now

Last edited by Ries : Saturday 4th July 2020 at 07:55.
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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 08:12   #18
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To give some idea of what Dale is talking about (post #14) in terms of focuser mechanisms, compare . . .

a) The simplicity possible with a full length bridge:
- the Nikon HGL

b) The complexity required to route the focuser movement through a narrow bridge arm:
- two images of the original EL, and
- the original EL SV (totally redesigned but also very complex)


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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 08:25   #19
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Quote:
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Classy to get an honest explanation from a, seemingly, Swaro rep

Guess some will hunt down pre-2020 EL's now

Thats what I am planning on doing today on a 10X42 as my 10X42 Rangefinders have a longer "SHORT DISTANCE" of 16ft
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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 08:38   #20
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Dale

Does this increase in close-focus distance only apply to EL 42 or will EL 32 be treated the same way?

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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 09:55   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkcub View Post
Hi Chosun,

My feeling is that the company has a very unique and (apparently) effective way of product marketing, but I don't think it involves customer contempt. Rather it's simply cold dispassionate reasoning designed to maka da monyee.

I got my first dose of this sort of thing years ago when the Brooklyn Dodgers moved to Los Angeles. They left all their lifelong fans behind.

Psychologically, we customers somehow believe that manufacturer's "care" for us. But caring is something humans do, not corporations. The blunt reality is they just have to maka da monyee.

So long as SONA provides great customer service, which they continue to do, I can live with it. But, by the same token, it's appropriate to discuss how they do business since it grounds us in reality.

Ed
Ed,

True, 'da monyee' talks - but a 'leader' without 'followers' is just a person going for a walk by themselves !

Expectation Theory is an old dog that doesn't really like new tricks ...

I have been 'burned' several times by manufacturers - cessation of Hazelnut Choc Chip Cookies, Russian Earl Grey Tea, and perhaps the most unforgivable travesty of all - dropping Black Forest Ice-cream .... just when I was well hooked on it too !

I think it will be very interesting to compare sales of new stock, new design EL SV's versus the 2nd hand market for old design EL SV'S (or even including new stock old design for as long as those now unicorns last .... )

Dale's explanation of market positioning makes sense - a middle way would have been nice though






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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 10:32   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Forbes View Post
To cut a long and (somewhat painful) story short, we really wanted to find a way to be able to keep the EL alive. After all, many of us are still very emotionally attached to the EL. But it arguably could never have survived at its current price position alongside the NL Pure, and simply reducing the selling price just creates losses.

Regardless of how much we did not want to change the performance of the EL, Ed was not too far from the truth in that we we forced to take a cold business decision to save costs - and that is exactly what simplifying the focusing mechanism allows us to do. I never heard a single person mention hamstringing.

Long story short: we were proud of the 1.5m we achieved with the EL. Reducing it to 3.3m was incredibly painful. But it does help to allow us to significantly save costs and sell the EL at a much reduced price.
Could you confirm the near focusing distance is the only change to the el42?

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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 10:50   #23
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Dale,

Could you tell us when this is gonna happen.
Say like, from which serial number?

Jan
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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 11:10   #24
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Poor Dale, now he has answered one question everyone is jumping on him. Communication is a tricky thing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troubador View Post
Dale

Does this increase in close-focus distance only apply to EL 42 or will EL 32 be treated the same way?

Lee
Why would they downgrade the EL32, it's still the flagship in 32s and main competitor of the new SF32 to come. Will only happen once a 32 NL is out.

I don't really buy that the cost reduction of the focus mechanism is really so relevant, but its an explanation that is more easily accepted by fans than pure marketing logic.

Swaro did a similar thing to the ATS scopes, which were discontinued when the ATX was introduced. Only the heavier ATMs were continued as a second line, I guess the lighter ATS would have been a too attractive alternative to the heavier top line ATX. I was so lucky to get a discounted ATS just before the ATX was announced.
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Old Saturday 4th July 2020, 12:24   #25
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Poor Dale, now he has answered one question everyone is jumping on him. Communication is a tricky thing



Why would they downgrade the EL32, it's still the flagship in 32s and main competitor of the new SF32 to come. Will only happen once a 32 NL is out.

I don't really buy that the cost reduction of the focus mechanism is really so relevant, but its an explanation that is more easily accepted by fans than pure marketing logic.

Swaro did a similar thing to the ATS scopes, which were discontinued when the ATX was introduced. Only the heavier ATMs were continued as a second line, I guess the lighter ATS would have been a too attractive alternative to the heavier top line ATX. I was so lucky to get a discounted ATS just before the ATX was announced.
Hi Dalat,

Sorry mate but you got it confused.
ATM (M for Magnesium body) was traded for the ATS (Aluminium body) which is a heavier but cheaper material compared to Magnesium alloy.

Jan

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