Definition of the British list following BOU (1 Viewer)

Phil Andrews · Oct 11, 2019

wolfbirder said:
That's the issue for me, who is the adjudicating body on these joined-up lists?

No one until both Britain and Ireland follow the same listing basis. Don't know the Irish position re "Isabelline" Shrikes or Easter Yellow Wagtail.

Nutcracker · Oct 11, 2019

wolfbirder said:
That's the issue for me, who is the adjudicating body on these joined-up lists?

'Body' is about right there, it's adjudicated by a corpse :-O

Phil Andrews said:
No one until both Britain and Ireland follow the same listing basis. Don't know the Irish position re "Isabelline" Shrikes or Easter Yellow Wagtail.

AFAIK, the official Irish list follows IOC, same as BOU, except that when they updated, they forgot to demote Thayer's to a subspecies; it's just an accidental oversight that it's still on. Hence Paul's "Well we all know it needs to be updated.........."

Andy Adcock · Oct 11, 2019

Phil Andrews said:
So on my non-existant B+I list can I tick the Thayer's Gull I saw in Lincs Nick?

As long as one of the relevant bodies has adjudicated any given species occurence, if the individual wants to amalgamate the two lists, it's up to them is it not? I know planty of birders who will refer to their 'British and Irish' list.

The oft quoted line here is 'it's your list, do what you want with it' and if people want to compare lists, all they need to do is make sure that they're applying the same criteria. If we're comparing the length of a body part, we should all be measuring from the same place.....

Mono · Oct 11, 2019

A slightly off-topic question regard the Isle of Man...

The BOU British List covers "England, Scotland and Wales and associated waters", it explicitly does not cover the Isle of Man. But the Isle of Man is sitting in "associated waters", how far offshore does a Manx bird have to go to count towards a British list?

Paul Chapman · Oct 11, 2019

Mono said:
A slightly off-topic question regard the Isle of Man...

The BOU British List covers "England, Scotland and Wales and associated waters", it explicitly does not cover the Isle of Man. But the Isle of Man is sitting in "associated waters", how far offshore does a Manx bird have to go to count towards a British list?

Most people I know who have been twitching for 20+ years keep a Britain, Ireland & Isle of Man list. The Isle of Man does not count on a British List so for instance I need Calandra Lark for my British List but count it on my Britain, Ireland and Isle of Man list:-

https://bubo.org/Listing/view-list.html?list_id=21080

https://bubo.org/Listing/view-list.html?list_id=21075

Bubo correctly labels the latter. There are no species recorded on the Isle of Man that have not been recorded in Britain and Ireland albeit at least two species occurred there first being White-throated Robin and Mourning Dove. I believe that people waited for news but did not fly for the Mourning Dove as it was found dead the following day.

The Isle of Man territorial waters are 12 nautical miles being c22 kilometres:-

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ibi.12536

All the best

Mono · Oct 11, 2019

Thanks for the info, couldn't find the sea area map.

Paul Chapman · Oct 11, 2019

Nutcracker said:
I have no connections to Ireland, but I do to Denmark . . . can bubo create a list for Britain and Denmark?

Nutcracker

Download the BOU list and add:-
Stejneger's Scoter
Demoiselle Crane
Black-winged Kite
Lesser Spotted Eagle
Booted Eagle
Steppe Eagle
Imperial Eagle
Bonelli's Eagle
Long-legged Buzzard
Eurasian Eagle Owl
Eurasian Pygmy Owl
Eurasian Three-toed Woodpecker
Middle Spotted Woodpecker
Black Woodpecker
Northern Flicker
Saker Falcon
Daurian Jackdaw
Gray's Grasshopper Warbler
Sulphur-bellied Warbler
Spotless Starling
White-winged Snowfinch
Cinereous Bunting

The Spotless Starling surprised me.

All the best

wolfbirder · Oct 12, 2019

I know the adjudicating authority determines what's on a list, & nothing else, but I do find the determining factors somewhat contradictory - is it based on geographical or political lines?

If it's geographical (i.e a cluster of close islands) then Isle of Man should count as it is close, and perhaps Shetlands not count as they are fairly detached, but if its on political grounds (rightly or wrongly & without inferring anything morally), currently Northern Ireland should arguably be part of the British list if it lies in "associated waters".

I do like the notion of a British and Irish Isles list as from a pure hobby or birding basis, these isles in general-speaking terms, are a close identifiable cluster. I don't know why it hasn't appealed to me before, but although it means two over-ruling authorities (British and Irish - or 3 in fact - British, Irish, and Northern Irish), it does open up an exciting, accessible, and critically affordable twitching arena which I really hadn't previously considered.

wheatearlp · Oct 12, 2019

Perhaps a look at the Ordnance Survey web-site would clarify the difference between Great Britain, the UK & the British(& Irish) Isles?

Some confusion no doubt caused by 'Great Britain' being used to refer to both the largest island in the British Isles and the political entity comprising England, Scotland & Wales.

As to what list(s) anyone keeps, that'entirely up to the individual. However, if comparisons are to be made, the definitions of the list area should be the same... as interestingly put by Andy A couple earlier in the thread 😉

Personally, if it is of the remotest interest to anyone, I keep a British list, perhaps 'cos I've never been birding in Ireland 🤔

Nutcracker · Oct 12, 2019

Paul Chapman said:
Nutcracker

Download the BOU list and add:-
Stejneger's Scoter
Demoiselle Crane
Black-winged Kite
Lesser Spotted Eagle
Booted Eagle
Steppe Eagle
Imperial Eagle
Bonelli's Eagle
Long-legged Buzzard
Eurasian Eagle Owl
Eurasian Pygmy Owl
Eurasian Three-toed Woodpecker
Middle Spotted Woodpecker
Black Woodpecker
Northern Flicker
Saker Falcon
Daurian Jackdaw
Gray's Grasshopper Warbler
Sulphur-bellied Warbler
Spotless Starling
White-winged Snowfinch
Cinereous Bunting

The Spotless Starling surprised me.

All the best

Thanks! Only 2 on that list I've seen there, but also one or two others that are on UK list but which I've only seen in Dk (e.g. Tengmalm's Owl)

Andy Adcock · Oct 12, 2019

wheatearlp said:
Perhaps a look at the Ordnance Survey web-site would clarify the difference between Great Britain, the UK & the British(& Irish) Isles?

Some confusion no doubt caused by 'Great Britain' being used to refer to both the largest island in the British Isles and the political entity comprising England, Scotland & Wales.

As to what list(s) anyone keeps, that'entirely up to the individual. However, if comparisons are to be made, the definitions of the list area should be the same... as interestingly put by Andy A couple earlier in the thread 😉

Personally, if it is of the remotest interest to anyone, I keep a British list, perhaps 'cos I've never been birding in Ireland 🤔

What will happen if / when Scotland leaves the UK, I'll lose half my list!

wolfbirder · Oct 12, 2019

The biggest confusion seems to lie in the concept of Britain - is it just the single landmass containing England, Scotland, and Wales, or is those 3 plus outlying smaller islands?

It seems to be the latter.

wheatearlp · Oct 12, 2019

wolfbirder said:
The biggest confusion seems to lie in the concept of Britain - is it just the single landmass containing England, Scotland, and Wales, or is those 3 plus outlying smaller islands?

It seems to be the latter.

Not really.

No such thing as 'Britain', although our nationality is British, which confusingly refers to people from the UK 🤔

Great Britain is both the name given to the main island of the British Isles and the countries of England, Wales and Scotland combined.

Dave Ball · Oct 12, 2019

It’s fairly straightforward. The ‘British List’, as opposed to the ‘British and Irish List’, is the list of birds that have occurred in any of the three polities that form part of the United Kingdom and that are situated on the largest island of the British Isles, Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales - alphabetical order), plus all offshore islands administered by those polities. This excludes all of Ireland, the Isle of Man, and the Channel Islands, including their offshore islands. This definition has much more to do with historical accident than with zoogeography.

For those wishing to compare lists, birds accepted on the British List are of course administered by the BOU.

DMW · Oct 12, 2019

wheatearlp said:
Not really.

No such thing as 'Britain', although our nationality is British, which confusingly refers to people from the UK 🤔.

... and the Channel Islands and IOM...

The reality is that there are various political and geographical definitions of Britain and the British Isles, and different people chose the one they like and argue it is the correct definition.

From a political point of view, it would make sense to have a UK list, which would exclude the CI and IOM, but include NI. From a geographical point of view, it makes little sense to exclude IOM but inude NI.

I keep a Jersey list and include offshore islands such as Great Britain and Eurasia

Nutcracker · Oct 12, 2019

Missed this before:

wolfbirder said:
....

Www.historic-uk.com/HistoryofBritain/The-UK-Great-Britain-whats-the-Difference/

...

The British Isles

The British Isles is the name of a group of islands situated off the north western corner of mainland Europe. It is made up of Great Britain, Ireland, The Isle of Man, The Isles of Scilly, The Channel Islands (including Guernsey, Jersey, Sark and Alderney), as well as over 6,000 other smaller islands.

As a geographical unit, the British Isles does not include the Channel Islands; geographically, they are part of France.

wheatearlp · Oct 13, 2019

DMW said:
... and the Channel Islands and IOM...

The reality is that there are various political and geographical definitions of Britain and the British Isles, and different people chose the one they like and argue it is the correct definition.

From a political point of view, it would make sense to have a UK list, which would exclude the CI and IOM, but include NI. From a geographical point of view, it makes little sense to exclude IOM but inude NI.

I keep a Jersey list and include offshore islands such as Great Britain and Eurasia

Was trying to keep Crown Dependancies out of the discussion 😉

MJB · Oct 13, 2019

wolfbirder said:
The biggest confusion seems to lie in the concept of Britain - is it just the single landmass containing England, Scotland, and Wales, or is those 3 plus outlying smaller islands?

It was easier when half the globe was pink...:eek!::eek!::eek!:
MJB

Andy Adcock · Oct 13, 2019

MJB said:
It was easier when half the globe was pink...:eek!::eek!::eek!:
MJB

A British Empire list would have been good!

wolfbirder · Oct 13, 2019

Nutcracker said:
Missed this before:

As a geographical unit, the British Isles does not include the Channel Islands; geographically, they are part of France.

Absolutely, considering the source of the article, which you would expect to be accurate, its got a few things wrong.

Great Britain is NOT just the main island comprising England, Scotland and Wales, and as you say the British Isles nor the UK does NOT include the Channel islands. They are separate, as a Crown dependency.

Its quite interesting studying these concepts, there is undoubtedly a lot of misperception.

Definition of the British list following BOU (1 Viewer)

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