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Stability Issues (1 Viewer)

Tringa45

Well-known member
Europe
A small increase in tube diameter can have a significant effect on stiffness (cube law), so I have always fully extended the top tube sections of my tripods and adjusted the required height via the bottom tubes.

However, I think I now have to revise that advice.

Another tripod thread prompted me to take a closer look at collet (twist) locks. I dismantled the second 32 mm leg section of an old Gitzo Studex and after reassembly was surprised to find that it could be displaced when fully extended although the collet was firmly tightened. I repeated this with my Sirui and Novoflex carbon fibre tripods with similar results. It's very noticeable if you lay the tripod horizontally on the floor and apply a lateral load to the extended second tube.

Recent carbon fibre tripods generally have a mere 3 mm difference in diameter between adjacent tube sections and 1mm wall thicknesses (sometimes more for very thick tubes) so the interference fit is accomplished by 0,5 mm thick and 3 cm long half shells at the tops of the tubes.
The tubes have two internal rails about 0,4 mm high to guide the gaps between the half shells and prevent the tube rotating when the clamp is loosened. This enables one to open or close all clamps simultaneously when the tripod is collapsed.

Previously, as on the old Gitzo Studex, it was necessary to unlock from bottom to top and lock from top to bottom. This procedure is still advisable with modern tripods to avoid putting too much torque on the thin shims and rails.

Bicycle seat posts have a recommended minimum insertion depth in the frame's saddle tube for obvious reasons. Tripod legs only overlap by about 6 cm when fully extended and I think something like an additional 5 cm is necessary for a rigid joint.

It would be unrealistic to expect manufacturers to restrict tube extension in the interests of rigidity and thereby sacrifice their maximum height specifications, and it's going to be tedious setting up a multi-section tripod for an additional 5 cm overlap at each joint. I have put pencil marks on mine and am now almost grateful for the markers on my Novoflex TrioPod, which I criticized in my review.

In summary this is just another argument for restricting the number of tripod sections and doing without a centre column.

John
 
A couple of comments:

1. I also used to extend the top sections of my tripods first, and I actually still do with one of my old lightweight aluminium Gitzos. However, with all other tripods I extend the bottom legs first, especially when I'm near water. I want the bottom leg locks as far away from the water as possible so dirt and/or saltwater doesn't get into the leg locks.

2. I find the quality of the leg locks varies quite a lot between different manufacturers. That's actually one of the main differences between high quality tripods (Gitzo!) and Chinese knock-offs, including Sirui. The Gitzos are better. Period. [1]

3. Keeping the number of extensions as low as possible is always a good idea. I've got two lightweight tripods, both of them a bit too small for me, even fully extended and with the middle column up, that I use on long hikes. One is a Sirui T-1204 X (three leg extensions), the other a Gitzo 0532 (two leg extensions). The difference in stability is quite obvious. [2]

4. For ultimate stability I use an old wooden tripod with *one* leg extension. It's actually the tripod sold with the Zeiss Jena Asiola many years ago, and weighs a ton. Well, almost. However, it works even in high winds. If I didn't have that tripod, I'd get a Berlebach. Well-made wooden tripods are excellent when ultimate stability is needed. An alternative are Sachtler tripods. They're also probably the most robust tripods on the market, especially when you use them in really difficult conditions, i.e. in saltwater. They aren't cheap though ... ;)

5. There's a lot of information on tripods on this website: https://thecentercolumn.com/. Well worth reading. The guy who runs it definitey knows what he's doing.

Hermann

[1] I'm not going to comment on RRS tripods. After the recent changes in that company I'm not going to buy their stuff anymore.

[2] There are situations where even tripods that are too short work quite well, for instance in the mountains or the Scandinavian fjells, when you ususally find a rock or something to sit down.
 
Hermann,

A few valid points there and I would agree that a single extension Berlebach would probably offer the best stability for those willing to carry the extra Kilo, and at an affordable price too.

Gitzo make indisputably good tripods but they have no magical qualities. The stability of a joint is proportional to the tube overlap, period. It was on a Gitzo Studex that I first noticed that a fully extended tube wobbled, however much I tightened the clamp. It was exactly the same with a Series 2 basalt fibre Gitzo and with CF Novoflex and Sirui tripods. You have to try this for yourself with the upper tube on a horizontal surface and some room for free movement for the lower extended tube.

I first drew attention to https://thecentercolumn.com/ on my tripod primer but now have some doubts about their comparisons. Do they test at a standardized height? Anything else would be unfair, but then the permutations for setting up a standardized height are myriad anyway! In the light of the above, their measured comparison of twist locks vs. flip locks is irrelevant - merely a question of personal taste.

John

PS:- I see that Sachtler is also part of the Vitec Group (Manfrotto & Gitzo)
 
Hi Herrmann, hi John,

thanks for your interesting insights - while I'm quite content with the stability of my main scope tripod, I'm going to try to get a bit more overlap by not fully extending... the question is, if it that will be compensated for by a few cm more center column extension... or should I get an extra long Gitzo...

One significant parameter seems to be the spread angle according to https://thecentercolumn.com/ - my old Velbon spreads noticeably wider than what I usually see with other birders (will have to measure how far)... manufacturers seem to have preferred smaller angles lately which is kind of understandable as it will make the same tripod a few cm higher... or a tripod for a given height searched by a customer appear a bit lighter...

Also I think having some added weight (maybe not in the form of a sandbag or backpack pendulum suspended from the center column hook)) but either as a scopac with some stuff in it or by putting the straps of a normal backpack around the tripod legs will help to dampen any movement.

PS: a brilliant tripod for use in salt water is any example from the old Cullman Titan series... single extension aluminum and the outer tube is the one that extends and it's completely waterproof. So unless you are in more than 60cm of salt water (with some 20cm safety margin for waves), you'll just have to rinse the outer section after use... Unfortunately they tend to be in the same weight category as the Zeiss Asiola Tripod...

Joachim
 
... I'm not going to comment on RRS tripods. After the recent changes in that company I'm not going to buy their stuff anymore...

Care to share a web link or other reference to your concerns? I'd like to know to what you are referring. I haven't been following their actions for the past year or two but I have a lot of RRS gear. I've never been politically aligned with the company, but if that disqualified doing business with a company or fellow humans, I'd have a hard time getting by in this world.

My latest CF tripod from RRS, purchased maybe a bit more than a year ago, is amazing. The new design of the locking collars makes them just as tremendously secure as the old design, but they operate more quickly and do not bind like the old ones did sometimes. I find the leg joints of all my RRS tripods substantially more rigid than any of the other tripods I own (older Gitzo, Manfrotto/Bogen, Velbon, Benro, Brunton).

--AP
 
Care to share a web link or other reference to your concerns? I'd like to know to what you are referring. I haven't been following their actions for the past year or two but I have a lot of RRS gear. I've never been politically aligned with the company, but if that disqualified doing business with a company or fellow humans, I'd have a hard time getting by in this world.

I don't think that would be appropriate here. Some of the things I learnt go back to 2008 actually. Also a couple of friends had problems with their warranty and less than stellar service, undoubtedly because they're in Europe.

That said, they sure make good products. I don't doubt that at all. But they're not for me.

Hermann
 
Gitzo had a tripod series specifically for this (stainless steel), the Ocean, sadly discontinued.

Stainless steel is not very good in this sort of environment. In the absence of oxygen and in the presence of chloride ions, the passive film is attacked resulting in pitting corrosion. Just look at the interior of your stainless steel saucepans!

John
 
Stainless steel is not very good in this sort of environment. In the absence of oxygen and in the presence of chloride ions, the passive film is attacked resulting in pitting corrosion. Just look at the interior of your stainless steel saucepans!

John

Hi,

for your normal stainless steel pot that is certainly true, proper marine grade stainless steel will not corrode so easily...

I think Gitzo used 316 for the Ocean series which should be ok for the occasional salt water immersion - if it gets hosed down later...

Joachim
 
for your normal stainless steel pot that is certainly true, proper marine grade stainless steel will not corrode so easily...

I think Gitzo used 316 for the Ocean series which should be ok for the occasional salt water immersion - if it gets hosed down later...

316 is basically 18/10 steel and seawater has a much higher chloride ion content than cooking water. I agree that hosing down, or better still, immersion in fresh water is advisable after seawater contact.
Most stainless steel watch cases are made of 316L, though there are a few steel alloys with higher resistance to pitting corrosion.
One of these is 904L but that is unobtanium at the moment, not because of any issues with the material itself, but because of the inflated reputation and demand for the marque that uses it ;).

John
 
316 is basically 18/10 steel and seawater has a much higher chloride ion content than cooking water. I agree that hosing down, or better still, immersion in fresh water is advisable after seawater contact.
Most stainless steel watch cases are made of 316L, though there are a few steel alloys with higher resistance to pitting corrosion.
One of these is 904L but that is unobtanium at the moment, not because of any issues with the material itself, but because of the inflated reputation and demand for the marque that uses it ;).

John

Hi,

well, there are some high-alloy steels with even better pitting resistance than oystersteel and their makers will glady sell them - although probably also at a price which was not very attractive for Gitzo...

Joachim
 
well, there are some high-alloy steels with even better pitting resistance than oystersteel and their makers will glady sell them - although probably also at a price which was not very attractive for Gitzo..

In saltwater sailing the stainless steel that's used by high end manufacturers is V4A (316L). Wichard for instance uses only V4A - and I've never seen any of their products show any signs of wear, not even after years of use (and abuse).

Hermann
 
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At the risk of straying further OT, pitting corrosion is only going to occur in the absence of oxygen and the presence of chloride ions, where the passive oxide film on the stainless steel can be attacked. After immersion in seawater threads on tripod clamps, watch cases or shackles might be vulnerable.

Stainless steels are really quite cheap. 316L is about €5/kg and 904L three times that. I believe though that 316L is also available with very low impurities of carbon, sulfur and phosphorus.

John
 
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