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Old Monday 10th February 2020, 06:48   #326
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The strange thing is to separate design and construction. It's a new bin packaged to appear like some old model with an entire separate setup. And this is to be marketed to big spending lifestyle Leica fans or their prestige store crowd now? It's fashion not passion if you ask me.

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Old Monday 10th February 2020, 06:52   #327
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this would be verry interesting, is there already any news on the transmission of the Retrovids?
I think I read somewhere in their specs the 7x35 have 88%
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Old Monday 10th February 2020, 10:33   #328
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I think I read somewhere in their specs the 7x35 have 88%
This week Gijs will do his magic thing and we'll now for sure

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Old Monday 10th February 2020, 12:52   #329
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Jan, not this week, but next week, students and research work has higher priority.
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Old Monday 10th February 2020, 14:58   #330
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I think I read somewhere in their specs the 7x35 have 88%
Yes, that's the spec that I saw at the UK Leica store site. Back when it appeared that the Retrovid was going to be a true re-issue of the original that seemed like very low transmission for a binocular combining the Uppendahl prisms and 10 glass to air surfaces of the originals with modern Leica coatings. Now that we know the Retrovid design has nothing in common with the originals, uses Schmidt-Pechan prisms and has 16 glass to air surfaces it's not quite as odd, but still inexplicably low compared to specs of 90% for the Trinovid HD and 92% for the Noctivid even with 18 glass to air surfaces. I'm looking forward to seeing Gijs' measurements.

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Old Wednesday 12th February 2020, 20:01   #331
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The Leica Retrovid design team did a good job by all reports, even if the SP prisms were a disappointment to purists. The optics are decent and the shape is attractive. So there was no need to go the extra mile with the Uppendahls.
Really? The Retrovid would have been optically clearly better with the Uppendahl prisms than an average SP psim roof. It's as simple as that.

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The marketing people however dropped the ball badly, alienating long term partners with a pointlessly exclusive distribution setup. Sadly the interview with Mr Albrecht provides no indication that any lessons have been learned.
There's a German expression, "merkbefreit und lernresistent". Fits Leica's actions quite nicely. Their actions also mean I'm done with them.

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Old Thursday 13th February 2020, 01:41   #332
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Really? The Retrovid would have been optically clearly better with the Uppendahl prisms than an average SP psim roof. It's as simple as that.

Hermann
Probably very true, but if the 80% Uppendahl failure to meet spec comment made earlier has any basis in reality, the price would have been extortionate.
It seems a reasonable compromise, compact, attractively slim shape, with good but not great optics, at a profitable Leica price.
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Old Thursday 13th February 2020, 02:26   #333
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Really? The Retrovid would have been optically clearly better with the Uppendahl prisms than an average SP psim roof. It's as simple as that.



There's a German expression, "merkbefreit und lernresistent". Fits Leica's actions quite nicely. Their actions also mean I'm done with them.

Hermann
Hermann:

How would you know the Uppendahl prism would be better in this case ? Your answer will prove interesting.

Jerry
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Old Thursday 13th February 2020, 12:28   #334
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How would you know the Uppendahl prism would be better in this case ? Your answer will prove interesting.
Check the technical literature on the three most common roof prism types, AK, Uppendahl and SP. You'll find the SP is the worst of these due to the problems with micro contrast described by Konrad Seil in 1992. A brief summary can found in Holger's book.

The only real reason the SP is so common is that it can be used to build short and compact binoculars. And because it's so common manufacturers can buy SP prisms all over the place to keep the cost down.

Hermann

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Old Thursday 13th February 2020, 13:00   #335
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Check the technical literature on the three most common roof prism types, AK, Uppendahl and SP. You'll find the SP is the worst of these due to the problems with micro contrast described by Konrad Seil in 1992. A brief summary can found in Holger's book.

The only real reason the SP is so common is that it can be used to build short and compact binoculars. And because it's so common manufacturers can buy SP prisms all over the place to keep the cost down.

Hermann
I suspect that optical design has changed considerably in the last 27 years.

So you are saying that Leica should have priced themselves out of the market, in order to have produced a binocular with little or no optical advantage, in order to satisfy a handful of optical geeks?

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Old Thursday 13th February 2020, 13:17   #336
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So you are saying that Leica should have priced themselves out of the market, in order to have produced a binocular with little or no optical advantage, in order to satisfy a handful of optical geeks?

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If nostalgic optical geeks and collectors were the market that Leica was aiming at, which seemed to be the case when news of this model first broke, then Herman is probably correct. Leica has quite a history of launching special edition binos and cameras to satisfy collector geeks. What we have ended up with is an average-performing bino that is graceful to look at but costs about £400 more than a Trinovid HD.


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Old Thursday 13th February 2020, 14:25   #337
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Leica's professed reasons for not using Uppendahls in the Retrovids might make sense except that they DO use Uppendahls in the Geovid R models and the price is about the same as the Retrovids even with the extra expense of the rangefinder electronics. In the US Leica's suggested price for the Retrovid 10x40 is $1575.00, the 10x42 Geovid R is $1599.00.
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Old Thursday 13th February 2020, 15:02   #338
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If nostalgic optical geeks and collectors were the market that Leica was aiming at, which seemed to be the case when news of this model first broke, then Herman is probably correct. Leica has quite a history of launching special edition binos and cameras to satisfy collector geeks. What we have ended up with is an average-performing bino that is graceful to look at but costs about £400 more than a Trinovid HD.





Lee
As far as their target audience is concerned it doesn't matter. It's the same reason urban dwellers spend tends of thousands of pounds on customised, souped-up Land Rovers Defenders, whose off road capabilities have been compromised in the search for the ultimate bling; the cars then spend their life in semi-detached suburbia and central London. The buyers only care about how they look, not how they perform. Nearly all of the recent Leica special additions have been targeted at the same market; think Hermes!!

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Old Thursday 13th February 2020, 16:06   #339
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Originally Posted by Troubador View Post
If nostalgic optical geeks and collectors were the market that Leica was aiming at, which seemed to be the case when news of this model first broke, then Herman is probably correct. Leica has quite a history of launching special edition binos and cameras to satisfy collector geeks. What we have ended up with is an average-performing bino that is graceful to look at but costs about £400 more than a Trinovid HD.


Lee
Yes, Leica has launched various special editions of cameras (might be also of binos), but the were all based on a recent models and at sometimes extremley high prices.

My questions, how many collect binoculars, could that be a basis for launching the Trinovids, just for collectors? Would collectors notice that the Uppendahl prisms were replaced by SP prisms? Would collectors miss the yellow cast of the old Trinovids, or prefer the clean, conrasty of the new ones? Who of the rest of possible customers cares about Uppendahl Prisms?

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Old Thursday 13th February 2020, 16:09   #340
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......
.....
..... What we have ended up with is an average-performing bino that is graceful to look at but costs about £400 more than a Trinovid HD.


Lee
I trust you are basing this judgment on some sound personal experience, not hearsay?


[[[Here my very personal 2 ct on „average-performing“ based on my individual interaction with the Retrovid 7x35:
this is currently the best 7x35 on the market, and there currently are very few 7x40 / 7x42 binos that are as good or better than it.
And I like the 8x40 even better ... ]]]
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Old Thursday 13th February 2020, 16:25   #341
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I trust you are basing this judgment on some sound personal experience, not hearsay?


[[[Here my very personal 2 ct on „average-performing“ based on my individual interaction with the Retrovid 7x35:
this is currently the best 7x35 on the market, and there currently are very few 7x40 / 7x42 binos that are as good or better than it.
And I like the 8x40 even better ... ]]]
No Canip I haven't had a look through them yet, so my assessment is based on specification and price. The 7x35 looks gorgeous and the fov of 140m is attractive too but the close focus (while probably perfectly adequate for most birders) is depressingly long at 4m for a nature observer and the 16mm of ER looks marginal, although to be sure, this can be deceptive.

Nevertheless I accept your slap on my wrist and admit I may have been hasty and have only the provocative tone of Post 335 to offer as an excuse and I certainly wish you many years of enjoyable viewing with them.

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Old Thursday 13th February 2020, 17:17   #342
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No Canip I haven't had a look through them yet, so my assessment is based on specification and price. The 7x35 looks gorgeous and the fov of 140m is attractive too but the close focus (while probably perfectly adequate for most birders) is depressingly long at 4m for a nature observer and the 16mm of ER looks marginal, although to be sure, this can be deceptive.



Nevertheless I accept your slap on my wrist and admit I may have been hasty and have only the provocative tone of Post 335 to offer as an excuse and I certainly wish you many years of enjoyable viewing with them.



Lee
Not sure what was provocative about my post
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Old Thursday 13th February 2020, 17:47   #343
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Would collectors miss the yellow cast of the old Trinovids, or prefer the clean, conrasty of the new ones?
This is a ridiculous assertion, and you know it.

An "old" Trinovid with modern coatings, dieeletric coatings on the prisms and especially phase coatings would *not* have a yellow cast. And it would be contrasty.

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Old Thursday 13th February 2020, 19:07   #344
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This is a ridiculous assertion, and you know it.

An "old" Trinovid with modern coatings, dieeletric coatings on the prisms and especially phase coatings would *not* have a yellow cast. And it would be contrasty.

Hermann
Could it be that you didn't got the point?

It seems that people had different expectations when the Trinovids were announced in 2017. Some wanted just a modern version with new coatings, others in addition better edge performance (field flattening lens?), others would prefere the orignial eyepiece focussing mechanism with just 15 mm eyerelief, then there are complains that the present 16 mm are not enough, the original rubber eyegards were better thnn the new ones, the binoculars should be waterproof, or with rubber amor and off course for some the Uppendahl prisms are essential, even others feel that the Trinovids are too expensive in view of their performance. And at the end, collectors are also not a homogenous group, may be some are nostalgic and don't like the very neutral image, prefer a warmer tone, who knows...

Difficult to fulfill almost every wishes


Thomas


p.s. my personal choice, I was hoping for the original wide field or even wider

Neverthless, at the end I am happy with what Leica delivered. If I put all the information here together, it is not fully clear to me why Leica switched to SP Prisms (quality control issues, but the Geovid R uses Uppendahl, straylight control, high price ?). But the actual performace of the Trinovid shows that Leica has indeed the competence to build very good binoculars, can jugde whether issues raised 1991 are relevant or not. On the other hand, I am also not convinced by their new marketing strategy, but this is a general trend not specific to Leica.

So why are so many so dissapointed, is that a reason to start Leica bashing?

Last edited by Thomas_M : Thursday 13th February 2020 at 21:09.
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Old Thursday 13th February 2020, 20:21   #345
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Not sure what was provocative about my post
Ehhh,.......me owning a Defender 130 with BIG tyres, winch, cruise control, heavy duty axels/suspension, back/mid/front diflock, roll over cage etc.......and I was just talking about the Leica management treatment, and then you came along

Oh yeah, and not to forget the 109 ambulance

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Old Thursday 13th February 2020, 21:13   #346
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I trust you are basing this judgment on some sound personal experience, not hearsay?


[[[Here my very personal 2 ct on „average-performing“ based on my individual interaction with the Retrovid 7x35:
this is currently the best 7x35 on the market, and there currently are very few 7x40 / 7x42 binos that are as good or better than it.
And I like the 8x40 even better ... ]]]
I had a brief look at the 7x35 yesterday at Leica Store Mayfair, and found the view a bit disappointing. Very pretty binoculars, but not more so than the Ultravid 8x42BL.

As for being the best 7x35 in the market, there aren't any others above 1/10 of its price, so that's not saying very much.

If I were in the market for binoculars, I'd probably get the Nikon MHG 8x42 or the Zeiss 8x42 SF instead.

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Old Thursday 13th February 2020, 21:39   #347
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Ehhh,.......me owning a Defender 130 with BIG tyres, winch, cruise control, heavy duty axels/suspension, back/mid/front diflock, roll over cage etc.......and I was just talking about the Leica management treatment, and then you came along

Oh yeah, and not to forget the 109 ambulance

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Old Thursday 13th February 2020, 21:58   #348
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?....
.....
.....
Nevertheless I accept your slap on my wrist .....
.....
.....
Sorry, I was smacking your bottom, I wouldn‘t dare slapping you on your wrist (you have to be able to hold binoculars, after all)
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Old Friday 14th February 2020, 06:06   #349
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Sorry, I was smacking your bottom, I wouldn‘t dare slapping you on your wrist (you have to be able to hold binoculars, after all)
LOL!!

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Old Tuesday 18th February 2020, 11:22   #350
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