Ficedula Flycatcher - a tough one (1 Viewer)

To all you China and SE Asia experts out there.

Is this an Elisae Flycatcher - Ficedula elisae or Narcissus Flycatcher - Ficedula narcissina?

http://ricebird.fc2web.com/img/tori/60907kibitaki2.JPG

Thoughts please.

lostinjapan said:

To all you China and SE Asia experts out there.

Is this an Elisae Flycatcher - Ficedula elisae or Narcissus Flycatcher - Ficedula narcissina?

http://ricebird.fc2web.com/img/tori/60907kibitaki2.JPG

Thoughts please.

Click to expand...

LIJ,
Tentatively, maybe! I wonder if you ask because the shot might have been taken in Japan. However, if I can believe the overall color scheme it does not appear to be a female nominate narcissina. Where was this shot? The confusion might be differentiating between the females of elisae and owstoni.

cuckooroller said:

LIJ,
Tentatively, maybe! I wonder if you ask because the shot might have been taken in Japan. However, if I can believe the overall color scheme it does not appear to be a female nominate narcissina. Where was this shot? The confusion might be differentiating between the females of elisae and owstoni.

Click to expand...

This shot was actually taken in Hiroshima last September, in a small garden called Shukkein.

I know there is some confusion between 'Elisae' and 'Owstoni', but it seems unlikely that this is 'owstoni' given the geographical location. I just wonder if 'Narcissina' ever show such green upperparts and such a yellow breast and prominent 'eyestripe'. I don't think so.

I have read Nial Moores online paper and actually contributed on the 'Owstoni' race as I saw several females and males on my travels in Amami, Okinawa, Iriomote and Ishigaki. None of the females ever struck me as being this brightly colored.

However, of course I have never seen 'Elisae' despite birding in China in the spring, only in Hong Kong where I saw the nominate 'Narcissina' and the related species- Yellow-rumped Flycatcher in Kowloon Park.

The closest I came to seeing an 'Elisae'-like bird in Japan before that was a possible female on Hegura in April 2002.

Over the past few years there have been some good birds in this garden and in the neighbouring Hiroshima Castle, which have strayed from the mainland - Red-throated Flycatcher, Dusky Warbler, Yellow-browed Warbler and today a Manchuran Bush Warbler.

So, really I need the expertise of anyone who has seen or knows 'Elisae' well.

Thanks

Sean
Hiroshima :bounce:

For narcissina the upperparts may be tinged olive and the rump is greenish or even yellowish-olive.
Your bird has just a tinge yellowish to the throat and to the ventral area; the supercilium shows some buff.

For elisae I would expect much brighter yellow noticeably to the supercilium all over the underside; the undertailcoverts evenly included.
http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/80561/sort/1/cat/all/page/1
http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/54970/sort/1/cat/all/page/1

gerdwichers8 said:

For narcissina the upperparts may be tinged olive and the rump is greenish or even yellowish-olive.
Your bird has just a tinge yellowish to the throat and to the ventral area; the supercilium shows some buff.

For elisae I would expect much brighter yellow noticeably to the supercilium all over the underside; the undertailcoverts evenly included.
http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/80561/sort/1/cat/all/page/1
http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php/photo/54970/sort/1/cat/all/page/1

Click to expand...

Hey Gerd

Thanks for the photo-links.

The first one is an obvious adult female...but in February.

The second a male, so I think we can discount it, as the bird I saw, that is in the photo is clearly an immature/female bird.

I disagree that the bird I saw doesn't have a yellow ventral area..it does in the photo and it was a definite field mark on the bird I saw. Moreover, I think it is clear in the photo and again was clear in the field that the yellow extends from the throat to the ventral area...though not as shockingly yellow as the female 'Elisae' in the pic you provided, it is still yellower than any Narcissina that I have ever seen.

Secondly you mention the super showing some buff..well both 'Narcissina' and Elisae' can show buff, not always yellow in Elisae I think...especially in immature birds..and actually I think it is as yellow as the throat and breast.

The mantle is a dark ochre green..again it is never usually this dark on Narcissina, and both species have non-yellow rumps.

Also I have never seen such dark primaries and secondaries, as well as a tail on a 'Narcissina', though I guess this could be the light to a certain extent and perhaps an indication that this might even be a young male bird.

I read the Nial Moores on-line paper below and it has..in my opinion some birds labelled as 'Elisae' that are very similar to my bird.


http://www.birdskorea.org/narcissustypes.asp

I guess the only thing I was worried about was the edging to the tertials being so brownish.

These are more female/immature photos of 'Elisae'

http://www.orientalbirdimages.org/s...esult&Bird_ID=2679&Bird_Family_ID=&pagesize=1

http://www.orientalbirdimages.org/s...esult&Bird_ID=2679&Bird_Family_ID=&pagesize=1

http://www.orientalbirdimages.org/s...esult&Bird_ID=2679&Bird_Family_ID=&pagesize=1

and here are photos of 'Narcissina'

http://www.orientalbirdimages.org/s...esult&Bird_ID=2679&Bird_Family_ID=&pagesize=1

http://www.orientalbirdimages.org/s...esult&Bird_ID=2679&Bird_Family_ID=&pagesize=1

and here 'owstoni'

http://www.orientalbirdimages.org/s...esult&Bird_ID=2679&Bird_Family_ID=&pagesize=1

Thanks

Sean
:bounce: