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Old Friday 9th August 2019, 17:58   #26
Chosun Juan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nohatch View Post
@all here is a pdf of the original paper by Schuster et al - let me know if you'd like any of the cited references as well (provided I have access).

Cheers,
Joost
Joost,

Thanks very much for providing access to that paper. I had a very quick squizz, but look forward to sitting down and reading it properly after a big sleep-in (courtesy of only ~3 hrs sleep per day over the last week).

Looking at the mapped area of the study, it would be interesting to correlate that to the natural ranges of where extinctions (with causes) have taken place since white settlement. I note that the 'unprotected' areas include the Murray-Darling Basin (the size of France and Germany combined) which we have just about killed, among others. More later.



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Old Friday 9th August 2019, 22:15   #27
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
Joost,

Thanks very much for providing access to that paper. I had a very quick squizz, but look forward to sitting down and reading it properly after a big sleep-in (courtesy of only ~3 hrs sleep per day over the last week).

Looking at the mapped area of the study, it would be interesting to correlate that to the natural ranges of where extinctions (with causes) have taken place since white settlement. I note that the 'unprotected' areas include the Murray-Darling Basin (the size of France and Germany combined) which we have just about killed, among others. More later.



Chosun
Actually it would be interesting just to correlate mapped areas to extinctions with causes, throughout history. Your idea is what we call decision-based evidence making.

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Old Saturday 10th August 2019, 04:52   #28
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Actually it would be interesting just to correlate mapped areas to extinctions with causes, throughout history. Your idea is what we call decision-based evidence making.

John
I'm not following the point I think you're making in relation to what I've said - you lost me. There seems to be a misunderstanding somewhere along the way. There are a lot of previous posts I have to address, and a lot of info on developing situations which will give further context.

You might be interested in this article: https://www.smh.com.au/environment/c...IZNFgMxkAdFWq0



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Old Saturday 10th August 2019, 17:24   #29
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TBH I think the real fallacy comes in the idea that it is the nature of the "management" activity that makes the difference.
John,

The entirety of this post of yours is so 180° off what I am saying that I think I can be most helpful by addressing it sentence by sentence.

Before we get down to the level of "the nature of the 'management' activity" , the fundamental difference comes from the philosophy or values of the culture. It is a worldview. The difference is between one that respects the earth as 'Mother' and 'Father' - the source of creation, and one that sees environments as something to exploit.

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Its not. Its the number of people drawing on the resources.
I will agree that sheer numbers compound the problem - especially with the exploitative mindset that has prevailed in the majority of the world up to this point

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Originally Posted by Farnboro John View Post
That comes, ultimately, from Nature, not science, maintaining the low numbers of people: so famine results in deaths, absence of modern medicine results in deaths, enlargement of one tribe results in conflict and direct reduction in numbers by war, etc.
That is not a statement I would agree with. Whilst there may have been some 'short term' effects (such as the ~30 year drought in Australia - and corresponding floods in Central America ~ 600 years ago from memory) , the overriding 'balance' comes back to the core philosophy embodied in the people's.

Indigenous people have their own medicines, and I would argue that the Aborigines present upon first contact with the outside world were the picture of health. Thriving. Strong, beautiful people.

I'm not a Lore(man) , but in 'Australia' there was something like ~250 to ~900 Aboriginal 'Nations' all living peacefully under an advanced system of governance and Law for thousands upon thousands of years. As the oldest living culture on earth, Aboriginies simply couldn't have thrived if they lived competitively as much of the rest of the world does. Yours is a view I would not subscribe to in this instance.

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Even then the role of e.g. the Australian indigenous population in the extinction of large Australian animals suggests that actually, the intervention of modern humans in any ecosystem will be deleterious at some level.
This is not my area of study, but even in the last decade the accepted paradigms have been turned on their heads. I would say the science is by no means settled. It is entirely likely that Aboriginals and 'Megafauna' coexisted for 10's and 10's of 1000's of years if not more. The exact cause of their disappearance is not yet proven to my mind. I do note from readings that beasts such as the 'Marsupial Lion' were highly specialized for taking larger prey.


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It is also absurd to advocate the example and suggest the rest of the world (which has followed a path not of mindlessly remaining at the survival level but enlightenment and the pros and cons that flow from that, including the current world human population) should adopt it, ...
I disagree, and I also would not term things the way you have.
I am advocating the 'philosophy' as the ONLY hope this world has got, because quite honestly, non-indigenous peoples have made a right mess of it, and despite the hippy movement, despite the green movement, what's left is headed over a cliff at a rapid rate of knots if our eyes and the scientific community are to be believed.

Again, rather than "mindlessly" existing, I would say that the complete opposite is indeed the reality. ie. MINDFUL existence.

I take it that by 'enlightenment' you mean the 'Age of Reason' and even by extension the 'Scientific Method'. Unfortunately in the absence of 'true' 'enlightenment' (ie. The 'Light' , Buddha, the unbroken lineage of Tibetan Buddhism, Sufism, Merlin - Excalibur, Jesus Christ, and of course earlier, and other 'native' examples throughout history, as well as the 'Dreamtime' of Aboriginals) , this is merely an incomplete subset. Combined with the spiritual and wisdom immaturity of the world it has lobbed the world precisely where we are right now.

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without also suggesting the essential corollary which has to be that the current world population must be reduced to a sustainable level (under the model you promote). This is a simple advocation of human massacre in every area not currently individually sustainable under the model. I question the ethicality of that.

John
I am not suggesting that at all. Solving rampant population growth will not solve the corrupt governance (and outright criminality in large parts) of the world.

* I do advocate a 'fair dinkum' paradigm shift to a sustainable philosophy of life as embodied by Aboriginals.
* I do think it would be prudent to focus on population growth amelioration through education, equitable opportunity for females, empowerment, family planning access, etc
* We need effective peaceful truly democratic (or its equivalent where appropriate) governance worldwide.
* We also need to set about a concerted program of accelerated environmental repair and transition - I would suggest this involves (largely) moving from islands of nature in a sea of humanity to:- islands of humanity in amongst a sea of nature.
** Can folks even imagine the funds and resources that would be freed up to achieve these agendas /improved ways of life if all the world's military expense was devoted to the task ?
** I would also suggest that our space exploration/settlement be done along these principles too, because so far we've often treated what we've accessed as a junkyard.




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Old Monday 12th August 2019, 21:10   #30
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I wonder if the 'hunter, gatherer' lifestyle is the reason?

Farming communities are removing forest at an alarming rate as opposed to the above who depend on the forests to a large degree, to thrive. I'd suggest that the communitiies used in this study, are not farmers, indiginous Brazilian tribes, Eskimos in Canada and Aborigines in Australia, none are farmers to any great degree AFAIK?
It can be explained by the work of this economist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom

" Among her better known works in this area is her study on the polycentricity of police functions in Indianapolis.[29] Caring for the commons had to be a multiple task, organised from the ground up and shaped to cultural norms. It had to be discussed face to face, and based on trust. Dr. Ostrom, besides poring over satellite data and quizzing lobstermen herself, enjoyed employing game theory to try to predict the behaviour of people faced with limited resources. In her Workshop in Political Theory and Policy Analysis at Indiana University—set up with her husband Vincent, a political scientist, in 1973—her students were given shares in a national commons. When they simply discussed what they should do before they did it, their rate of return from their "investments" more than doubled. Her later, and more famous, work focused on how humans interact with ecosystems to maintain long-term sustainable resource yields. Common pool resources include many forests, fisheries, oil fields, grazing lands, and irrigation systems. She conducted her field studies on the management of pasture by locals in Africa and irrigation systems management in villages of western Nepal (e.g., Dang Deukhuri). Her work has considered how societies have developed diverse institutional arrangements for managing natural resources and avoiding ecosystem collapse in many cases, even though some arrangements have failed to prevent resource exhaustion. Her work emphasized the multifaceted nature of human–ecosystem interaction and argues against any singular "panacea" for individual social-ecological system problems.[30]"

In short: traditional communities often evolve arrangements which serve the local ecosystem better than those imposed from above.
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Old Tuesday 13th August 2019, 09:59   #31
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
Joost,

Thanks very much for providing access to that paper. I had a very quick squizz, but look forward to sitting down and reading it properly after a big sleep-in (courtesy of only ~3 hrs sleep per day over the last week).

Looking at the mapped area of the study, it would be interesting to correlate that to the natural ranges of where extinctions (with causes) have taken place since white settlement. I note that the 'unprotected' areas include the Murray-Darling Basin (the size of France and Germany combined) which we have just about killed, among others. More later.



Chosun
Your very welcome Sorry I haven't got time to read up & engage with this interesting thread, but I may watch from the sidelines.
J
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Old Tuesday 13th August 2019, 11:44   #32
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Certainly not the case in Mindanao re: PICOP and Mount Apo at least.
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Old Tuesday 20th August 2019, 15:45   #33
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Thumbs up John Muir

"Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul"

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...composer=false




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Old Tuesday 20th August 2019, 19:27   #34
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Hi,

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Originally Posted by katastrofa View Post
Dr. Ostrom, besides poring over satellite data and quizzing lobstermen herself, enjoyed employing game theory to try to predict the behaviour of people faced with limited resources.
That sounds highly interesting. In case you've read it, would you consider her book "Governing the Commons: The Evolution of Institutions for Collective Action" accessible to laypersons?

From reading "The Dark Emu", my impression is that Aboriginal society had managed to avoid the "Tragedy of the Commons" (overexploitation of shared resources), and that would seem to be an example for traditional communities achieving success on more or less a continental, certainly not just on a local, scale.

So I'm looking for further reading, and from what you mentioned about Dr. Ostrom, her work seems to be highly relevant to the topic at hand :-)

Regards,

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Old Tuesday 20th August 2019, 22:55   #35
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Dr. Ostrom, besides poring over satellite data and quizzing lobstermen herself, enjoyed employing game theory to try to predict the behaviour of people faced with limited resources.
We all now know that is a description of everybody. Does Dr Ostrom's model predict the behaviour of the human population of the planet, or is it just one more non-functional description of a limited set in a heavily circumscribed situation, just like the non-science of economics?

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Old Wednesday 21st August 2019, 00:47   #36
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A very simple animation of how exotic animals and grazing/agricultural practices ruined a landscape in a matter of decades.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ylqR6u7xCjs



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Old Wednesday 21st August 2019, 01:22   #37
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Exclamation Tribal areas are based on available water

Water is Life
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...75716459215409
"Aboriginal people therefore saw human society as an interdependent part of the whole ecology not being separate from or holding dominion over it. .....
..... This was however not just the carrying capacity of the land in a good or average year, but in the worst of years. For Aboriginal people abundance was the norm."


I think we must also say something about the concepts of Capitalism, and Death too, as important differences.


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Old Wednesday 21st August 2019, 06:45   #38
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Hi John,

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We all now know that is a description of everybody.
That mere knowledge of a limitation does not necessarily result in an adaption of different utilization strategies of the resources in question is in fact one of the things game theory, as a mathematical discipline, explains quite well.

An accurate, predictive and non-limited model of human society certainly would be a highly desirable tool to have, but outside of Asimov's "Foundation" series, no-one seems to have had much luck in building one ;-)

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Old Monday 9th September 2019, 14:36   #39
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Lightbulb Lore

If you think the mindset is different, then you are likely underestimating by a factor of about a bazillion ! Completely alien would be a graspable concept .....
https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article/...kxegUeczMig-lU
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf0RrQ62jw8




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Old Monday 7th October 2019, 10:14   #40
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Thumbs up An Anti-war Society

"We are going to tell the truth about Aboriginal culture; the oldest continuous culture on earth and the first culture on earth to devise a system where society would be anti-war and were consistent with that ethos for 80 thousand years. It had never been tried anywhere else on earth and it was very effective. The persistence with which each generation took it up was phenomenal."

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...75716459215409

https://www.ewb.org.au/whatwedo/engi...g/bruce-pascoe






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Old Monday 7th October 2019, 11:57   #41
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They didn't wage war for land, but they did wage it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austra...iginal_warfare
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Old Monday 7th October 2019, 13:56   #42
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They didn't wage war for land, but they did wage it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austra...iginal_warfare
That's an erroneous view through a Colonial lens.
The reality was a sophisticated system of Governance, Law and Civilization, and Sustainability. A rather inconvenient truth as you'll see by the documented revelations in the "Dark Emu" thread.
https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=364276

Did you read the article I posted on law (post#39) ? Here's the link again:
https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article/...kxegUeczMig-lU

The concepts of 'War', 'Genocide', 'Invasion', and 'Possession' were completely foreign to Aboriginals.
Killing in the name of God was particularly unknown - only a Colonial mindset could justify that. https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...cus_composer=0

Therein lays the crux of the differences:-

A collectivist (bound by common spirituality), peaceful civilization living sustainably in harmony with the land inextricably linked as an inherent part of spirituality, and,

Conversely, civilizations that are founded on ownership, conquest, and exploitation of the environment in service of a capitalist system (or the benefits conferred therein) - one that justifies genocide in the name of God.

It's this very thinking that has brought us the fires in the Amazon.
With the unending war being waged against each other and the earth you'd have to ask - how's that working out for everybody?




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Old Monday 7th October 2019, 14:40   #43
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Bizarrely, but relevant to this thread perhaps there was an item on Radio 4 first thing this morning saying that essentially most societies have co-existed peacefully most of the time, but historians tend to focus on the warring side. eg mixed religions for centuries in eg Palmyra, Syria coexisting peacefully and toleratantly.
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Old Monday 7th October 2019, 16:25   #44
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Bizarrely, but relevant to this thread perhaps there was an item on Radio 4 first thing this morning saying that essentially most societies have co-existed peacefully most of the time, but historians tend to focus on the warring side. eg mixed religions for centuries in eg Palmyra, Syria coexisting peacefully and toleratantly.
Depends on how narrowly you define "peacefully"...
It might also be worth pointing out that a lot of historians focus on other things than just war and politics, it's just that those aspects of history dominate in the media, since they tend to sell better.
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Old Monday 7th October 2019, 16:43   #45
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Depends on how narrowly you define "peacefully"...
It might also be worth pointing out that a lot of historians focus on other things than just war and politics, it's just that those aspects of history dominate in the media, since they tend to sell better.
Hmmm. I think it was in the context that the over-arching theme is that it is presented as everyone was always killing everyone else of a culture type that they didn't like, whereas the long periods when peace between different religious groups was the norm doesn't really get mentioned. Sorry can't be much more specific with examples (was driving at the time) and don't know how to find a link to the program.

(And yes, of course historians are interested in various different aspects of history ;-) )
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Old Monday 7th October 2019, 17:42   #46
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Raiding the neighbours to kidnap their women looks awfully like war to me, even if it was part of a different belief system than ours.
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Old Monday 7th October 2019, 18:43   #47
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Raiding the neighbours to kidnap their women looks awfully like war to me, even if it was part of a different belief system than ours.
People really need to research Aboriginal culture written by Aboriginals - ie dispelling all the unsavoury myths that were created by invaders for ulterior motives.
You don't run a civilization for over a hundred thousand years in perfect health by getting your sisters, cousins, and neighbours up the duff ! There are strict laws governing 'right skin'. This part of culture is very important, ingrained and organized into the social fabric, and quite civilized - hence the rich history of music, dance, and art, all tied to story, spirit and land which is all integral to the people themselves.
6 fingered banjo players would have been an anomaly ! :)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aust...iginal_kinship




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Old Yesterday, 06:51   #48
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Thumbs up Sand Talk: How Indigenous Thinking Can Save The World

".....something Aborginal culture offers.

"We’ve been through a lot of apocalypses. We have them in all our stories. There’s volcanoes. There’s massive floods. There are meteorite impacts that cause massive destruction. All of these things are in our oral history," he says.

"And in those stories there are ways of being that are really clearly described as the ways that you need to live in order to maintain a culture that can survive these things. It’s worth looking at. ...."


https://www.afr.com/life-and-luxury/...1KFRBO01QclK30




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