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HBWAlive Key; mission accomplished or mission impossible?

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Old Tuesday 28th May 2019, 22:45   #201
mb1848
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Quote:
probably from L. mutare to change; Gr. ευοδια euodia good journey, fair passage < ευοδεω euodeō to fare well
This makes sense and is better than mutated smells.
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Old Thursday 30th May 2019, 22:17   #202
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Pitalla:
Key: https://www.hbw.com/dictionary/definition/pitalla .
Richmond Generic names applied to birds 1916-1922.
Pitalla L. Navas, Bol. Soc. Aragonesa Ciencias Nat. iX no. 4, April 1910, p. 98. New name for Pyrrhia Navas 1907 not Pyrrhia Hubner, 1822.
https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/...e/110/mode/1up .
Pyrrhia L. Navas, Anales Facultad Ciencias Zaragoza, I, No. 2, June, 1907, 128. Type, Loxia pyrrhula Linnaeus ( first species mentioned ) . ] New name for Pyrrhula "Pall." ( See Pitalla. )
https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/...ge/68/mode/1up .
Navas mentions Pyrrhula p. europaea Vieillot Nouv. Diet. d'Hist. Nat. iv. p. 286 (1816)
Still have no clue to the meaning of Pitalla.
Laurent addressed everything in 2014.
https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=3185742 .
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Old Friday 31st May 2019, 09:35   #203
Calalp
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Pitalla NAVAS 1910

A quicker way to Laurent's post where "he addressed everything in 2014" (i.e. Post #19, No.21), here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by l_raty View Post

[...]

Quote:
No. 21:
Pitalla (forgot to note down the link, sorry!):
The forgotten link [same as MarK's second link, to], ... : [OD], but it explains nothing, I'm afraid.
Pitalla Navas, 1910 is a replacement name for Pyrrhia Navas, 1907 [OD] nec Hübner, 1821 [OD]. Pyrrhia Navas itself was a replacement name for "Pyrrhula Pallas", deemed invalid as a generic name because it was initially proposed as a specific name ([OD by Pallas]; but name now taken from the Tabula synoptica in the non-binominal and non-binary work of Brisson 1760 "[OD]" [see also [here]], where protected by Dir. 105 if deemed generic [albeit whether anything in Brisson is intended as a generic name is highly questionable, IMHO; in practice, "Pyrrhula Brisson" is a species, around which he built his genus #37]).

[...]
Maybe (and now I'm only guessing, simply brainstorming) Pitalla could somehow be connected/linked to Pallas himself (hence Pyrrhula PALLAS)... alt. to the form pitallus, or Pitallus... ?

Quote:
"Pitallus was a doctor who threated his patiens at no charge" [here]
Maybe Dr Navas simply felt he was doing the same with his birds?

For what it's worth. If anything?

/B

PS. Pitalla seems to be a local word/name for a red/pink (dragon/cactus) fruit!? If somehow connected to Navas's Ornitologia de Aragon is however unknown to me ... or to the red (πυῥῥος, rojo), as in Navas's Pyrrhia (1907).
--

Last edited by Calalp : Friday 31st May 2019 at 09:38. Reason: PS.
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Old Saturday 1st June 2019, 09:16   #204
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An attempt on ...

cubo and dairi as in:
C. [Cyanurus] cubo BONAPARTE 1850 (here), no explantion what-so-ever (at least not what I understand).
C. [Cyanurus] dairi BONAPARTE 1850 (same page), ditto explanation ... i.e. none.

In today's Key:
Quote:
Quote:
cubo
Probably the author's attempt at a homophone, i.e. French queue tail, and beau beautiful (cf. cubla); "817. Cyanurus, Bp. ... *4. C. cubo, Bp. ex Asia orientali. Cyaneus, subtus antice niger: crista nulla: rectricibus mediis valde elongatis, omnibus apice albis." (Bonaparte 1850, Conspectus Gen. Avium, I, 381) (syn. ?Urocissa sp.) (see dairi).
Quote:
dairi
Etymology undiscovered; perhaps from Japanese dairi a former term for the Emperor, rather like mikado; "817. Cyanurus, Bp. ... *3. C. dairi, Bp. ex Asia orientali. Cyaneus, subtus omnino albus: crista occipitali longissima: rectricibus mediis valde elongatis, omnibus apice nigris." (Bonaparte 1850, Conspectus Gen. Avium, I, 381) (?syn. Urocissa sp.) (see cubo).
Some suggestions ...

Latin cubo, cubō, cubus (cubare) ... as of here alt. here

I´m pretty sure Bonaparte's specimen/s were "lying down"

Joking apart! Some minor additional info, by Bonaparte himself, on Cyanurus dairi are to be seen in his Opera ornithologica, vol II, 1825-1857 (here, with C. cubo on the same page):
Quote:
... Figura nulla.
Hab. in Asia magis orientali, Corea.
According to Giebel (1872) both Birds originated from Korea (here).

Also, maybe noteworthy, is the following quote (from a US Schoolbook, of 1846):
Quote:
"... The Dairi is the spiritual ruler of the country [in this case; Japan], but the Cubo is the political ruler, paying only nominal obedience to the Dairi.

[from here]
Or like in this text:

Quote:
Formerly, the cubo made an annual journey to Meaco, in token of respect to the dairi; by degrees, these visits ...

[from here]
Both, also noted; here, here, here, ... and elsewhere.

If it is, like that US Schoolbook told us; that dairi and cubo is/was religious words/titles in a Buddhist context, they could (both) possibly be linked to Korea [which, religiously, are divided between Korean Shamanism, (Neo-)Confucianism, and Buddhism].

If it does? Truly? I haven't got a clue.

Take the above for what it is worth.

Björn

Last edited by Calalp : Saturday 1st June 2019 at 15:02.
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Old Saturday 1st June 2019, 13:53   #205
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Good work Björn. Both cubo and dairi relate to Japan; in addition to the references you give, there is an interesting entry in The Edinburgh Gazetteer or Geographical Dictionary, III, 1822, p. 476. Key duly amended.
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Old Saturday 1st June 2019, 15:00   #206
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Glad you found it useful James.

Then the remaining question is: what "?Urocissa sp." are/were to be found in Korea ... or Japan!? Couldn't it/they be a Cyanopica sp. alt. ssp.? Or?

Does the Latin description help us either way?

For anyone still curious (or in doubt) regarding the titles Cubo and Dairi, see James's recommendation:
The Edinburgh Gazetteer or Geographical Dictionary, III, 1822, p. 476 (here).

FWIW: Both titles were used by Thunberg, in/from his Resa till Japan/Voyage to Japan, 1775–1776 (here), English version here (lower part, p.vii).

/B
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Last edited by Calalp : Saturday 1st June 2019 at 15:55. Reason: reorganized post; two into on
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Old Saturday 1st June 2019, 15:56   #207
l_raty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calalp View Post
Does the Latin description help us either way?
The generic diagnosis of Cyanurus should in principle apply to the included species. This reads:
Quote:
Rostrum nigrum : cauda longissima.
Bill black : tail very long.
Quote:
*3. C. dairi, Bp. ex Asia orientali. Cyaneus, subtus omnino albus : crista occipitali longissima : rectricibus mediis valde elongatis, omnibus apice nigris.
*4. C. cubo, Bp. ex Asia orientali. Cyaneus, subtus antice niger : crista nulla : rectricibus mediis valde elongatis, omnibus apice albis.
*3. C. dairi, Bp. from eastern Asia. Blue, entirely white below : with a very long occipital crest : the central tail feathers strongly elongated, all of them black at the tip.
*4. C. cubo, Bp. from eastern Asia. Blue, frontally black below : with no crest : the central tail feathers strongly elongated, all of them white at the tip.

I guess I might be led to construe the second description as matching a Urocissa erythrorhyncha (which does occur in Korea), perhaps immature, lacking the red bill of that species.
But I find the first description really puzzling... (No Urocissa is entirely white below, no Urocissa is crested, no Urocissa has black-tipped tail feathers.)

(The original source for these birds being Korean was Bonaparte himself [here].)
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Old Sunday 2nd June 2019, 09:29   #208
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Thanks Laurent.

After having flipped back and forth, over and over, in Birds of East Asia (by Mark Brazil, 2009), I simply cannot figure out which of today's Korean species (or ssp.) would fit either one. Not even after having tried to incl. female or juvenile birds.

To me, this far, the true identity of both cubo and dairi remain a mystery.

Björn

PS. But it was worth a try. It's always nice to use a Field guide, once in a while, not only the screen.
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Old Sunday 2nd June 2019, 10:10   #209
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I'm actually wondering if he might not have written these two descriptions while looking at some oriental paintings, that might have interpreted the real bird in a rather free way.
(For cubo, in the later work where he said the birds were Korean, he also gave a Japanese name, "San-zjak", adding that the same name applied to the red-billed species as well (now "sanjaku" サンジャク in Japanese according to Avibase). This suggests a written Japanese source of information.)

Last edited by l_raty : Sunday 2nd June 2019 at 16:05. Reason: "San-zjak", not "San-sjak" (thanks, Björn)
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Old Sunday 2nd June 2019, 16:15   #210
Calalp
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Siebold's "Biophorus paradisiacus (China)", in the Appendix, the very last bird in Fauna Japonica (Aves), 1850; here, and Plate here.

As I understand it concidered a variety of today's Urocissa erythrorhyncha ... or?

If of any help?

/B
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Last edited by Calalp : Sunday 2nd June 2019 at 16:51.
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Old Sunday 2nd June 2019, 17:18   #211
l_raty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calalp View Post
As I understand it concidered a variety of today's Urocissa erythrorhyncha ... or?
Or simply an artist's interpretation of a normal Urocissa erythrorhyncha... This is a reproduction of a drawing by a Japanese painter, of a bird that was not seen by the authors of the book.

With a long crest and (on one of the two birds) a black bill: http://www.journal18.org/wp-content/...gpie-Kopie.jpg
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Old Monday 3rd June 2019, 07:34   #212
Calalp
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Couldn't cubo and dairi simply, possibly (and now I'm only guessing) be two different colour morphs/varieties of the (Red-billed) Blue Magpie Urocissa erythrorhyncha (domestica) kept at the Japanese (or Korean) court/s, and thereby their name? Or, like Laurent suggested, simply based on paintings ... (of ditto Origin?), with crests and all.

Either way, the other Janpanese (Kanji) name 山鵲 ( for the same species, according to Avibase,) take us (to a minor Art tour!); here, and here (from the Siebold Collection!) or even here ... alt. here and here!? Also see this Painting (from 1776), with black-tipped tail feathers and somewhat blackish bill/beak.

Well, that's it. I can't reach any further regarding the identity of cubo and dairi.

I'm done (... one those two)

Björn

PS. Also maybe worth a thought; "In July 2007, 3 babies of Urocissa caerulea Gould and Urocissa erythrorhyncha were found in Taichung, proving the possibility for the two to hybridize. ..." (here). I wonder what they (or any other Formosan/Red-billed Blue Magpie) looked like when they grew up!?
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