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Trouble with scope mounting reliably to tripod head, gets wobbly/falls off (1 Viewer)

ses4j

Member
Hi -

I have the Celestron Regal M2 80ED, attaching to a Manfrotto MHXPRO-2W XPRO head, which has the standard Manfrotto QR plates.

This connection has always been unsatisfactory, because in regular use no matter how much I try to tighten it it inevitably becomes loose and starts to wobble while I try to rotate the scope.

Lately, the threads on my scope have become even more unreliable and a little stripped, and the scope has just fallen off a couple times (luckily so far, not catastrophically).

Is there any better plate I can use that will screw into multiple of those three screwholes to avoid these issues, or some other solution people use to get better connections?

Thanks!
 

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A cheaper alternative would be to purchase a screw (I think it is a 4/5"), screw it through the bottom of the plate and into one of the other holes in the foot of your scope, preventing horizontal movement. I did this with my ED82 as it was always working its way loose, cost me 12 pence for 3 screws!
 
A cheaper alternative would be to purchase a screw (I think it is a 4/5"), screw it through the bottom of the plate and into one of the other holes in the foot of your scope, preventing horizontal movement. I did this with my ED82 as it was always working its way loose, cost me 12 pence for 3 screws!

Cheaper is almost always better! However, I seemed to recall that the Celestron foot holes don’t align with Manfrotto plate holes - but it was long ago.

Best,
Jerry
 
A cheaper alternative would be to purchase a screw (I think it is a 4/5"), screw it through the bottom of the plate and into one of the other holes in the foot of your scope, preventing horizontal movement. I did this with my ED82 as it was always working its way loose, cost me 12 pence for 3 screws!

For a while I used a screw, but the problem is that the Manfrotto QR plate holes are too small in diameter - I think they are the width of the needed screw shaft rather than the width including the threads, so any screw that would properly screw in will not fit through the plate.
 
Yes, for sure that’s not a very good plate. You want something like this one
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...Ch1JfA_mEAQYCSABEgLfH_D_BwE&lsft=BI:514&smp=Y

The right type of plate is generally called a sliding or balancing quick release plate. And be sure to get Manfrotto, not Arca Swiss plate. They’re slightly different and the AS won’t fit into your Manfrotto head without an adapter.

Thanks! Does that plate fit into the same socket as the one I got with the head (which I think is the 200PL), or do I have to get a completely new head? Also what about plates like these?
I can't tell if they're prperly fit in the head or not... I think not... https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...to_501PLONG_501PLONG_Quick_Release_Video.html

Thanks for the sage advice, all!
 
Cheaper is almost always better! However, I seemed to recall that the Celestron foot holes don’t align with Manfrotto plate holes - but it was long ago.

Best,
Jerry

The q/r plates used to come with an anti rotation screw or plastic push in "screw" that worked with most scope bodies. However, some like yours don't allow the a.r.screw/pin to align with the hole in the scope foot. It is a 200PL.
Cannot think of an easy solution I'm afraid.

Also doesn't help if you carry the scope by the stay on case handle, with the tripod head and legs attached.
 
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Thanks! Does that plate fit into the same socket as the one I got with the head (which I think is the 200PL), or do I have to get a completely new head? Also what about plates like these?
I can't tell if they're prperly fit in the head or not... I think not... https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...to_501PLONG_501PLONG_Quick_Release_Video.html

Thanks for the sage advice, all!

I had a chance to look more closely at your video head and sadly, I thought you had a different clamp so the plate I mentioned will not fit. However, all is not lost!

I suggest simply mounting a better clamp on your existing plate. Like this unit which includes a new clamp and new plate to fit the new clamp.

https://www.amazon.com/Andoer®-Rele...=1549844548&sr=8-55&keywords=arca+swiss+clamp

Take your existing Manfrotto plate and mount the new clamp to your plate. There are many mounting holes in this clamp so you should be able to get two screws to bind the clamp to the plate.

When you insert your Manfrotto plate into the video head, the new clamp will stand clear of the head, ready to accept the new plate which you will have attached to the Celestron scope.

I would not go so far as to purchase a new head when the new clamp/plate combination is so inexpensive.

Good luck and best,
Jerry

PS This clamp/plate combo switches you over to the other Manfrotto style of mount. Using this method you could also get an Arca Swiss plate/clamp combo and switch over to Arca Swiss.

Also, if you have trouble fitting two screws into the new clamp then one screw plus an anti rotation pin should work. If you don’t have a pin for the 200pl you can find them here.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...Bh3YawAzEAQYAiABEgI9HvD_BwE&lsft=BI:514&smp=Y
 
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I use loctite 'glue'. I say glue but it is specifically designed for screws or more specifically to stop screws coming loose. You can still remove the screw after but it will stay in place in the meantime.

Best solution I have found...
 
stripped tripod thread

Hi -

I have the Celestron Regal M2 80ED, attaching to a Manfrotto MHXPRO-2W XPRO head, which has the standard Manfrotto QR plates.

This connection has always been unsatisfactory, because in regular use no matter how much I try to tighten it it inevitably becomes loose and starts to wobble while I try to rotate the scope.

Lately, the threads on my scope have become even more unreliable and a little stripped, and the scope has just fallen off a couple times (luckily so far, not catastrophically).

Thanks!

It is not uncommon for the thread in the base of a scope, to wear out.
The metal casting is often a bit soft and the threads strip.
I have repaired many using a steel helicoil insert 1/4 inch whitworth thread.
 
I use loctite 'glue'. I say glue but it is specifically designed for screws or more specifically to stop screws coming loose. You can still remove the screw after but it will stay in place in the meantime.

Best solution I have found...

Use the blue loctite not the red. Red is more permanent!;)

I have the Manfrotto 501PL sliding plate and have used it with Nikon 82ED A spotter and a 80ED Celestron refractor with no trouble.

BTW rosbifs a very good reply!! Steve
 
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For a while I used a screw, but the problem is that the Manfrotto QR plate holes are too small in diameter - I think they are the width of the needed screw shaft rather than the width including the threads, so any screw that would properly screw in will not fit through the plate.

Hi,

you got a drill bit to widen the hole in the plate up - that is if the hole is in the right position.

Or locatite blue as has been mentioned.

Joachim
 
Arca Swiss type Quick Release plates, basic inherent deficiencies

Hi -
....the standard Manfrotto QR plates.

This connection has always been unsatisfactory, because in regular use no matter how much I try to tighten it it inevitably becomes loose and starts to wobble while I try to rotate the scope.

Lately, the threads on my scope have become even more unreliable and a little stripped, and the scope has just fallen off a couple times (luckily so far, not catastrophically).

Is there any better plate I can use that will screw into multiple of those three screwholes to avoid these issues, or some other solution people use to get better connections?

Thanks!





The concept behind the Arca-Swiss type of QR plates, both
original or derivatives, only seems to be simple enough, to allow for
completely ignoring the most basic rules of engineering. Is it just lack
of better alternatives available, that most users still stick with this unlucky design? By
either just accepting it as such, or by using only marginal remedies as
loctite, instead of asking for better solutions.

1. Loosening of thread due to insufficient pretension.

In the industry's probably most frequent application of threaded bolts
withstanding periodic load variation: The fastening of cylinder heads
to engine blocks, its well accepted practice to use bolts as long as
possible in order to allow for sufficient elastic pretension in order to
permanently withstand bolt fatigue and thread loosening.

With Arca Swiss type plates this well proven principle gets completely
ignored. Even the anyway limited length of the screws possible, here gets
not properly used.

A considerable improvement applicable to most of Arca Swiss type plates
is to replace the existing screw by a set screw (without head).
This gets fully inserted to the bottom of the devices female thread. Only thereafter
the QR plate then gets fastened by a hex-nut pre-tensioning one (or several) (conical)
spring washer(s). By maximum length thread engagement tensioned only after insertion,
the devices female thread gets protected against deformation of the outer thread pitches and wear.


2. Rotation between adapter plate and device due to insufficient friction

2.1.The second deficiency often mentioned with Arca Swiss type plates is
rotation between plate and socket of the device, only partly also
related to bolt loosening. If this rotation should be prevented by
frictional momentum only, another rule, of physics,
applies: Frictional force = force perpendicular to surface x coefficient
of friction. As the area of surface doesn't appear in this formula, the resulting
perpendicular force gets only optimally used, if the frictional force is acting
at a diameter as large as possible (lever rule). Therefore the mating surface between
QR plate and device should be concentrated on a diameter as large as possible.
The surfaces near the center however should not touch.

2.2. Often the standard elastomer cover of QR plates is unsuitable. Too soft, so that
no sufficient pre-tension in the bolt can be established. And/or material without adequate
frictional properties. Good: Natural cork or even better: Thin synthetic (usually polyurethane)
drive belt material (as i.e. "Habasit").

If additional means to prevent rotation (as loctite or additional screws) are needed, its just
proof of the deficiency of the basic concept of the Arca Swiss design. Friction as only means
of rotational resistance may also serve beneficial as some overload protection. As an
anti-rotation screw has to be positioned so close to the main screw, damage in case of overload
is likely (lever rule again)

Quality of Arca Swiss type plates might usually be judged by difference in finish of machining or
surface treatment, but most seem to share the same unlucky design.

HW
 
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The concept behind the Arca-Swiss type of QR plates, both
original or derivatives, only seems to be simple enough, to allow for
completely ignoring the most basic rules of engineering. Is it just lack
of better alternatives available, that most users still stick with this unlucky design? By
either just accepting it as such, or by using only marginal remedies as
loctite, instead of asking for better solutions...

Your experiences with these plates are apparently completely different from mine. I use plates from Really Right Stuff (and a few from Kirk) and have never had any troubles with loosening.

...1. Loosening of thread due to insufficient pretension...With Arca Swiss type plates this well proven principle gets completely ignored. Even the anyway limited length of the screws possible, here gets
not properly used...

I don't follow. There is no limit on the length of the screw that can be used with Arca-type plates. The limit is determined by the depth of the threaded socket of the device attached to the plate. As it happens, my old plates from RRS have fairly long and high quality screws.

...2. Rotation between adapter plate and device due to insufficient friction...

Rotation is best prevented with an anti-rotation lip or custom asymmetrical fit to the device, not friction, which would require extreme tightening that might cause damage. Companies like RRS and Kirk were founded on meeting the need for plates that can't rotate. Their designs work as intended.

...2.2. Often the standard elastomer cover of QR plates is unsuitable. Too soft, so that no sufficient pre-tension in the bolt can be established...

High quality plates, such as those from RRS and Kirk, do not use any elastomer covering. Such covering prevents a completely rigid fit and is to be avoided. I use a few plates of the Manfrotto/Gitzo/Sirui sliding plate standard (similar to but not same dimensions as the Arca-Swiss standard) which are supplied with elastomer. The first thing that I do before using them is to remove the rubber covering and machine the top of the plate for a flat metal-to-metal direct-contact fit, and I leave an anti-rotation lip on one side.

...If additional means to prevent rotation (as loctite or additional screws) are needed, its just proof of the deficiency of the basic concept of the Arca Swiss design. Friction as only means
of rotational resistance may also serve beneficial as some overload protection. As an
anti-rotation screw has to be positioned so close to the main screw, damage in case of overload
is likely (lever rule again)...

I don't use thread compounds. I _have_ used anti-rotation pins, but only with standard Manfrotto small rectangular (not Arca and not sliding) plates. There is no reason that an anti-rotation pin would have to be close to the main screw, except to follow the old video standard. Even so, I've never experienced any damage resulting from that design, nor has anyone that I know, despite decades of use in tough conditions!

...Quality of Arca Swiss type plates might usually be judged by difference in finish of machining or surface treatment, but most seem to share the same unlucky design...

Again, that is not my experience. The main thing that distinguishes plates is their _design_, and the degree to which it allows for a custom fit to the device. The reason Arca clamps and plates became so popular is _in part_ because they allow for plate sliding in the clamp, but I think _most_ of the specification of Arca-type clamps in the industry can be attributed to companies like RRS and Kirk, which rose up to provide non-rotating (often customized) plates, which are the go-to standard for many a professional and serious enthusiast. For many years, they had no competition, and they are still my favorite solution for attaching devices to tripod heads.

--AP
 
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Your experiences with these plates are apparently completely different from mine. I use plates from Really Right Stuff (and a few from Kirk) and have never had any troubles with loosening.



I don't follow. There is no limit on the length of the screw that can be used with Arca-type plates. The limit is determined by the depth of the threaded socket of the device attached to the plate. As it happens, my old plates from RRS have fairly long and high quality screws.



Rotation is best prevented with an anti-rotation lip or custom asymmetrical fit to the device, not friction, which would require extreme tightening that might cause damage. Companies like RRS and Kirk were founded on meeting the need for plates that can't rotate. Their designs work as intended.



High quality plates, such as those from RRS and Kirk, do not use any elastomer covering. Such covering prevents a completely rigid fit and is to be avoided. I use a few plates of the Manfrotto/Gitzo/Sirui sliding plate standard (similar to but not same dimensions as the Arca-Swiss standard) which are supplied with elastomer. The first thing that I do before using them is to remove the rubber covering and machine the top of the plate for a flat metal-to-metal direct-contact fit, and I leave an anti-rotation lip on one side.



I don't use thread compounds. I _have_ used anti-rotation pins, but only with standard Manfrotto small rectangular (not Arca and not sliding) plates. There is no reason that an anti-rotation pin would have to be close to the main screw, except to follow the old video standard. Even so, I've never experienced any damage resulting from that design, nor has anyone that I know, despite decades of use in tough conditions!



Again, that is not my experience. The main thing that distinguishes plates is their _design_, and the degree to which it allows for a custom fit to the device. The reason Arca clamps and plates became so popular is _in part_ because they allow for plate sliding in the clamp, but I think _most_ of the specification of Arca-type clamps in the industry can be attributed to companies like RRS and Kirk, which rose up to provide non-rotating (often customized) plates, which are the go-to standard for many a professional and serious enthusiast. For many years, they had no competition, and they are still my favorite solution for attaching devices to tripod heads.

--AP
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Hallo Alexis

I appreciate the effort you took to deal at least with some of the points I made.

I think there is less a difference in individual experience, as you say, with QR plates (disregarding their brand) between us, than with the kind of approach to such products.

If you see no alternative to what you can buy, according to your own statement, inevitably you have also to limit your expectations and to be satisfied with what you get.

Decades of product development, however, obliged me to set my goals according to what is possible, not only to what is available; beyond the level of existing products.

I managed to upgrade even what you would rate "low quality" plates just by applying common rules of engineering such, that friction fit only is sufficient to prevent rotation around, and loosening of the screw holding QR plate and device together. Making redundant all means of shape fit as anti-rotation pins or dedicated plates with custom shaped lips.

Its obviously more profitable for industry to have buyers for myriads of different dedicated QR-plates shaped to the individual contour of camera bottoms, than to improve the (non optimised) designs of all universal QR plates (I know) to the extent that pre-tension and friction only is sufficient to prevent device rotation around and loosening of the attachment screw.

You so little believe in friction fit, that you even prefer further to reduce the originally existing coefficient of friction to its minimum of bare metallic surfaces by machining away all surface modifications.

As yourself I am pleased with the Arca type plates, but only after having them improved. I prefer, however, a completely different own design, which avoids all these ridiculous discussions about dimensions and tolerances.

I wrote my previous contribution mainly as answer to the initial statement #1 made in this thread. You luckily don't need my advice. Thanks for your comment all the same.

Best regards

Hans
 
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...Its obviously more profitable for industry to have buyers for myriads of different dedicated QR-plates shaped to the individual contour of camera bottoms, than to improve the (non optimised) designs of all universal QR plates (I know) to the extent that pre-tension and friction only is sufficient to prevent device rotation around and loosening of the attachment screw...

I do own some of the device-specific custom plates, but I have found that a few generic designs from RRS and Kirk work for nearly everything. Among current offerings from Really Right Stuff, I recommend the BP-CS plate. The B9 BIDIRECTIONAL plate is good for smaller devices. Another good one for some applications is the L84 plate.

--AP
 
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