Zeiss Colour Cast (1 Viewer)

waynewallace · Jun 30, 2003

I had the chance to test the 3 'top of the range' scopes at Pagham recently, courtesy of Kay Optical, who do field trips there on the last Sunday of each month. I want to upgrade my old Opticron, so eagerly went along to compare them, side by side.
The scopes were, Leica Apo 77, Zeiss 85 FL & Swarovski 80 HD, all angled and I had a good
hour or so, taking my time comparing how they all resolved various objects around the area.
I tested all threee scopes using both 20-60x zooms and also 40x ish fixed eyepieces.
For me, optical clarity is the most important factor, so I concentrated mainly on actual viewing, rather than the ergonomics etc.
The first thing that became obvious was that @60x, the Zeiss was noticeably sharper, which was a bit surprising considering how many rave reviews I'd seen on the Swarovski zoom but at lower magnifications, there really wasn't much to choose from any of them.
The other noticable feature was that the Zeiss had a definate YELLOW cast, which at first was almost obtrusive.
I have read Andy's review on the Zeiss but there he mentioned a slight BLUE cast, so I was a bit surprised, to say the least - has any one else encountered colour casts on the Zeiss?
It's my birthday in a couple of weeks and my other half is treating me to what ever scope I desire, so although I was pretty sure that the Swarovski would be my choice, I am now leaning
towards the Zeiss, primarily due to it's apparent sharpness at higher magnification.
I'm a bit concerned though over the seeming lottery over colour casts...

robinm · Jun 30, 2003

Maybe you're both right. If your eyes see a yellow cast then so be it.

I have always said that with optics you need to trust what your eyes are telling you. For example, when I was choosing bins I chose Leica over Swarovski because I thought the Swaros had a yellow cast. But I know some swaro owners bought theirs because they thought the Leica had a yellow cast.

I am absolutely sure that (within a price bracket) choosing optics is more about finding the right "fit" for your eyes than almost anything else.

mak · Jun 30, 2003

Wayne.
robin makes a good point about finding optics that suits the purchaser.

All binoculars have a slight cast and I know a lot will disagree, even the top end binoculars have a cast. It depends on how the optics are set up, for instance if you do not look parallel through the bins then you will see a cast (yes I have tried them all) on the manufacturing side, the human eye is sensitive to blue light at dusk and dawn, so transmission on some binoculars has been increased to over 60% in the blue spectral range. This makes it possible to recognise details much better in poor light. This change in the spectral sensitivity in low light conditions is termed the Purkinje shift, resulting in a shift from approx 555nm to 507nm. Confused, so am I, but what I am saying is that with some binoculars the spectral range of the binocular is different,(not all binoculars at the top end have the same spectral range, Leica could be different to Swarovski, which could be different to Zeiss, Nikon etc) it is important that the maximum light transmission lies in the right spectral range. A slight blue cast increases the overall colour, but softens contrast. A yellow cast increases contrast but softens brightness and colour.

waynewallace · Jun 30, 2003

Thanks guys - some heavy stuff from Mak but I sort of understand, in a kind of baffled kind of way...
What I'm not sure about is why my other half and another guy could also definately see a yellow cast, when Andy saw Blue - is it that Andy's sight is different to ours, or is it that Zeiss has varying quality/coatings issues etc, so that there genuinely are Zeiss scopes out there with different colour casts?
I will be going to Titchfield Haven near Southampton on the 12/13th July, where the Winchester branch of the London Camera Exchange have a field weekend. I can compare the Zeiss again against Swarovski and see how they pan out.
Actually, I guess you would get used to whatever you've got so it probably wouldn't be an issue either way.
By the way, I use Swarovski 10x42 EL bins and I am very happy with them.

mak · Jun 30, 2003

wayne.

I was baffled and I wrote it. I wanted to point out that the manufacturers go to great lengths to set up their optics. It is not a fault.

Generally I have found the following in binoculars: Zeiss tend to be blue. Leica yellow and Swarovski yellow. If you do not look parallel through the eyepiece, you will see yellow/blue on nearly all of the above. Andy is correct with his findings.

gorank · Jan 30, 2004

results from tests done in different circumstances with different eyes...would be very difficult to compare....

scampo · Jan 30, 2004

Colour casts are a matter of compromise for lens manufacturers - and their hope is that they can create a lens with sufficient apparent sharpness ("accutance") to please the most customers. The old Swarovski binos always gave a yellow cast - but they were still excellent birding binos. The new Swaros are thought to be a touch blue or cold. A compromise is always the end point; but how one person sees one colour and three other people see another is odd and suggests either that Zeiss scopes are variable or some other (more likely) factor.

A technically-minded friend discussed just this matter with various optics manufacturers and he was told that fluorite glass (used to reduce CA) tends to create a naturally cold or 'blue' colour cast. A yellow cast was once quite common - indeed older model Swarovski binos certainly had this. The eyes soon adjust, however, and for digiscoping it is of no consequence, I am told.

But perhaps what you saw was created by the "colour temperature" of the daylight at the time of your testing? The colour of daylight varies a good deal between dawn to dusk - as any photographer will quickly find out. Our brain is usually good at fooling our eyes into not noticing this.

Out of interest, the friend I referred to above recently changed his outfit from Leica to Nikon for precisely the reasons you have outlined. He feels that Nikon lenses offer the most faithful colours because they do not use fluorite glass, but their own ED formulation. You didn't look through a Nikon ED82 scope in your own tests. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised by its qualities - especially natural colour, lack of flare in difficult light, no fringing, high sharpness and brightness.

Andy Bright · Jan 30, 2004

I still say that the colour cast of the Zeiss 85 was on the blue side, though it has to be said that my regular scope was the Swaro at80hd which gives a decidedly yellow cast... so anything going the other way would be noticably colder to me.

MAK's comments on the fact the a blue cast lends itself to reducing contrast in the image but improving colour rendition seems to be borne out in my findings whilst reviewing the Diascope 85fl in comparison to the yellow cast of the image from the old Swaro'. Although it seems Alula reckon the contrast of the 85fl is greater than that of the old Swaro' ...most odd.

I use the Zeiss much of the time these days so can't tell if it's blue, green, red or whatever

One thing reviewers do agree on is that the Zeiss resolves more detail than any of the other scopes at above 40x. It also gives a very bright image with that 85mm objective.

I'm not sure colour casts should influence you too much, they're often very subtle.
Regards,
Andy

GR Triever · Jan 30, 2004

Andy Bright said:
I still say that the colour cast of the Zeiss 85 was on the blue side, though it has to be said that my regular scope was the Swaro at80hd which gives a decidedly yellow cast... so anything going the other way would be noticably colder to me.

I didn't have a chance to look at a Swaro 'scope, but did manage a peek through a set of their binoculars. Most definitely yellow to my eyes. My Zeiss scope seems to be neutral, but maybe that's because my first scope was a Winchester-branded Vanguard Optics model. Talk about BLUE!

GR

scampo · Jan 30, 2004

What? The new Swaro binos give "a most definitely yellow" colour cast? This is getting a little idiosyncratic to say the least.

Older Swaros were known for their warm coloured image, much as Sigma's photo lenses were nicknamed "Sigma-yellow"; yet this did help cut through atmospheric haze. But the new Swaros are as neutral as can be imagined; to quote from BVD:

"The ELs are among the most color neutral glasses I have tested."

Now come on - maybe you've got a touch of liver trouble, for yellow they are not...

(-:

Swissboy · Jan 30, 2004

GR Triever said:
I didn't have a chance to look at a Swaro 'scope, but did manage a peek through a set of their binoculars. Most definitely yellow to my eyes. GR

I assume you must have been looking through some older types of Swarovski binos, then!

iporali · Jan 31, 2004

It sure starts to sound interesting... here is BVD Stephen Ingraham's take on colour cast
http://betterviewdesired.com/7-02 BVD/

For instance, the Zeiss, on first look, appears noticeably brighter than the Swarovski, which is, perhaps, as much a function of the difference in color bias as in anything else. Compared side to side the Swarovski is much “cooler” and more “neutral” than the Zeiss. Yes, you read that right! The Zeiss is warmer, with a slight yellow bias (I have included two photos that might, depending on the quality of your monitor, show the difference).

Ilkka

scampo · Jan 31, 2004

That BVD article is interesting but I'm not now as convinced of the reviewer's objectiveness having had the chance to do my own research. Also, the article lacks any scientific measurement of the parameters commented upon.

When my son, Nick, chose his Swaro 65 + 20-60x zoom, we can now reflect that we were swayed in our views by three factors: the aggressive marketing of Swarovski, the fact that money was available for a Swaro, and that the RSPB sales assistant's view was that Swaro's service was infinitely quicker than Leica's. I can also add that a previous customer had managed to damage badly the locking pin locating hole on the Leica's body - a further negative for Leica. So our testing of Zeiss, Leica and Swaro was a touch tainted. But, the view through the three scopes was, we both still agree, as nearly equivalent as makes no difference. We are both quite certain that none of the scopes showed any obvious or worthwhile colour cast, lack of brightness, sharpness or clarity. Indeed we feel that they are all three much of a muchness except that such a description does none of them justice as they are all truly excellent scopes. What still puts the Swaro above the others in our view is its protective rubber casing - but, when the scopes are kept in a stay-on case, even this seems no benefit - but my it looks good (except we can no longer see it!).

Coming back towards the BVD review, naturally enough, when the birding gets boring, my son and I regularly compare his Swaro 65ED (20-60x zoom) with my Nikon ED82 (25-75x zoom). We both agree that in all honesty it is a close call but that, if anything, the Nikon gives the most colour faithful (and naturally enough, brighter) view - and it manages this despite being an 82mm that is no longer than the Swaro 65.

It would surprise me, then, if any birder on this forum could genuinely "prefer" one of these three scopes against another on the basis of their optics - let alone the colouration or otherwise of the view given.

Andy Bright · Jan 31, 2004

scampo said:
That BVD article is interesting but I'm not now as convinced of the reviewer's objectiveness having had the chance to do my own research. Also, the article lacks any scientific measurement of the parameters commented upon.
QUOTE]

Casting aspersions on BVD and mr Ingraham..... outrageous

scampo · Jan 31, 2004

Trouble is a) I've now read those first class (and nostalgia inducing) Danish reviews of the Dokter and Zeiss binos and b) have read the views of many experienced birders (such as yourself, lick, lick (-: ) on this fine forum!

Swissboy · Jan 31, 2004

iporali said:
It sure starts to sound interesting... here is BVD Stephen Ingraham's take on colour cast
http://betterviewdesired.com/7-02 BVD/

For instance, the Zeiss, on first look, appears noticeably brighter than the Swarovski, which is, perhaps, as much a function of the difference in color bias as in anything else. Compared side to side the Swarovski is much “cooler” and more “neutral” than the Zeiss. Yes, you read that right! The Zeiss is warmer, with a slight yellow bias (I have included two photos that might, depending on the quality of your monitor, show the difference).

Ilkka

As far as it is conclusive to compare binoculars with scopes, I would fully support this view. That is, the new 80mm Swarovski scope has a bluer (in my opinion beyond neutral) cast, compared to the Zeiss Victory binos.

scampo · Feb 1, 2004

It would be interesting - as a friend said he discovered in discussing this with manufacturers - whether this was connected with the use of fluorite.

Except - as I recall the Prominar Kowas tend to give a warm hue?

gorank · Feb 1, 2004

According to a swedish digiscoper that uses the Zeiss Diascope 85, it gives a slight yellow cast, but the good light and excellent sharpness of the 85 mm scope is a great advantage.
And his photos sure are excellent! The photos taken after 2002-12-01 is with the Zeiss scope (previous pictures with the Kowa 823 Prominar med zoom 20-60x82):
http://home.swipnet.se/zoothera/fotografier.htm

iporali · Mar 19, 2004

Sorry about being stuck with this subject but I am still puzzled with these seemingly conflicting observations - which I think should be possible to be clarified once and for all. All this has lead me to conclude that either Zeiss have a significant variation with their Diascopes (in terms of colour cast) or our individual eyesight just differs so much when estimating colour balance - and to be honest - both are quite hard to believe.

Here is a rapid collection of some published opinions or hints towards either opinion (blue or yellow):

A. Zeiss has a definite blue/cold cast
- Andy Bright's review
- mak (this thread)
- high brightness, low contrast (reported by many reviewers, even the ones that see a yellow cast)
- Arto Juvonen's sample photograph on his web-page
http://www.digiscoping.fi/kaukoputkitesti/minzoom.html
(no mention about the white balance: auto?)

B. Zeiss has a definite yellow/warm cast
- BVD review
- Alula review ("yellowish-green")
- waynewallace & co (this thread)
- swedish digiscoper Stefan Johansson (above mentioned)
- Arto Juvonen's post (yahoogroup)
- http://birdingonthe.net/chat/26_May_2003_to_27_May_2003.html

FWIW option A. makes more sense to me, but I find it hard to question the clear observations of several knowledgeable testers. In case of an older Swarovski A/ST-80 the yellow cast seems to be reported consistently. I still don't understand, why it is so variable with Zeiss. Anyone with a suggestion?

Ilkka

(Anorak thing...?) 3

scampo · Mar 19, 2004

I have a Zeiss 85 now (my son is using my Nikon 82). It has no appreciable (or important) colour cast, so rest easy. It is extremely sharp and bright - but most of all, it is wide, far wider than any competing scope.

I shall be using it alongside a Swaro in an hour's time so will report back, but my memory is that if it has any cast at all, it veers towards the yellow, wheras the Swaro veers towards the blue; the Nikon, to my eyes, is as faithful as can be achieved.

The Zeiss seems to have a different type of contrast compared with either the Nikon or Swaro (different - not worse, nor better). This gives the image a very slightly different quality - but I have a suspicion this is just because when put next to a Nikon or Swaro there is just so more to see owing to the comparatively exceptional field of view. This could be interpreted by the eye as a very slight lowering of contrast - which, has on occasion, made me wonder if there isn't a slightly blue cast in certain lights - confusingly.

I shall report back later, Ilkka.

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