• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Kowa Genesis 8x33 ... Why Spend More ??? (1 Viewer)

The topic surely comes up again and again ;). What I have come to not completely understand is the attitude of the alpha owner.

Seems there are a couple of fallacies that always pop up. The first is that everybody really wants the Porsche. It should be plainly evident that is not the case. Why that is so hard to grasp remains a mystery.

The second thing is the reaction of the high end owner to the absolute temerity displayed by anyone daring to pose a favorable comparison of something "lesser" to their baby. Get real, nobody insulted or demeaned you. Nobody insulted a family member or kicked your dog. One might be forced to conclude if your reaction is to shoot the messenger, then the messenger must have a point. The point of the OP being...why pay the difference?

The quote posted by JG above must be spot on target. That seems to explain a lot.

If you are pleased with what you get for what you pay for it...good for you, go look at stuff and enjoy life. Doesn't matter what you paid for it either.
 
Last edited:
Steve C said:
The topic surely comes up again and again ;). What I have come to not completely understand is the attitude of the alpha owner.

Seems there are a couple of fallacies that always pop up. The first is that everybody really wants the Porsche. It should be plainly evident that is not the case. Why that is so hard to grasp remains a mystery.

The second thing is the reaction of the high end owner to the absolute temerity displayed by anyone daring to pose a favorable comparison of something "lesser" to their baby. Get real, nobody insulted or demeaned you. Nobody insulted a family member or kicked your dog. One might be forced to conclude if your reaction is to shoot the messenger, then the messenger must have a point. The point of the OP being...why pay the difference?

The quote posted by JG above must be spot on target. That seems to explain a lot.

If you are pleased with what you get for what you pay for it...good for you, go look at stuff and enjoy life. Doesn't matter what you paid for it either.
Click to expand...

Nicely put Steve.

I guess it is an inconvenient truth that the likes of the Conquest HD and Genesis are now uncomfortably close to alpha roofs,
 
To all you white hats here, don't lose sight that it is Gwen being the provacateur. In effect saying one has to be gullible or simple to pay more than what the Kowas cost.

Though in principal I agree with some of his points, there are many variables and for him to judge others actions by his opinion of a few pair of bins, well...

And uhm, James,
Believe it or not, not everyone covets a Porsche. I hope that doesn't diminish your experience B :)
 
Last edited:
perterra said:
Spoken like a true offended brand Y owner. :-O

Dont bet on the Porsche part, give me one today and it will be sold tomorrow and the money used on something that means something to me
Click to expand...


No, spoken as someone offended at being said to be ''brain-washed'', a term that surely applies to a huge number of forum participants, including the most knowledgeable, experienced and respected voices here - including many here rushing to support the OP.

I am really surprised that a post that was designed to inflame and denigrate [despite the weak disclaimer] actually gets a whole herd of supporters - I thought it rude. Dennis gets criticized for expressing just the opposite view, I see no merit to either way [they] express their ideas.

And the Porsche part was not meant as a Truism, but just an example. I don't own a Porsche.

In the end, instrumented testing usually does show differences between very expensive binoculars and those less so. It all comes down to what differences the viewer can perceive and how important they are in use. I'm sure that someone like Gwen would have different perceptions and needs from a binocular than someone like Henry.
 
Kevin Conville said:
To all you white hats here,
Click to expand...

Like this guy?

hoss%2Bcartwright.jpg
 
james holdsworth said:
No, spoken as someone offended at being said to be ''brain-washed'', a term that surely applies to a huge number of forum participants, including the most knowledgeable, experienced and respected voices here - including many here rushing to support the OP.

I am really surprised that a post that was designed to inflame and denigrate [despite the weak disclaimer] actually gets a whole herd of supporters - I thought it rude. Dennis gets criticized for expressing just the opposite view, I see no merit to either way [they] express their ideas.

And the Porsche part was not meant as a Truism, but just an example. I don't own a Porsche.

In the end, instrumented testing usually does show differences between very expensive binoculars and those less so. It all comes down to what differences the viewer can perceive and how important they are in use. I'm sure that someone like Gwen would have different perceptions and needs from a binocular than someone like Henry.
Click to expand...


I dont think she posted to inflame, I think she posted to stir up conversation. Hell it worked.

If her post inflamed, then feelings are being worn too close to the sleeve. I gots to say this falls into the realm of white peoples problems if hearing someone voice an opinion of $1,800 to $2,400 being foolish to spend on a binocular inflames.

I seem to recall a few posts in the past stating pretty much up front that a "good" birder will only be carrying a Z,S or L. Reading that made me laugh, maybe that was because I harbor no desire to be taken as a good birder. Just as I have no desire to be seen in a Porsche, actually it would probably embarass me. Make that a Sunbeam Tiger and I'd bite.

I didnt really think it rude, but in my world rude is when someone calls you an SOB and doesnt smile. (it's okay if they smile when they say it)

Back to the topic, I thought it was kinda funy, I got a kick out of her post, she makes a lot of sense. Besides, she wasnt talking about you, she meant everybody else was brainwashed. :t:

I mean as long as she aint borrowing money from you, why care what she says?
 
Last edited:
View his public profile and see. In the mean time I will delete my reply to you about this with a quote from you.B :)
 
Last edited:
It's a fine line though, isn't it?

The Genesis are pretty pricey, pricey enough that any ''sane'' person would think one ''brain-washed'' to spend $1000 + on a bunch of glass.

Why stop there though? I'm sure there are some very capable binoculars that can meet or exceed the Genesis, for many hundreds less - maybe even half that price depending on how ''discriminating'' we are going to be.

Then we get the ''tier 2'' of those brainwashed enough to spend an outrageous sum on a binoc. If we move farther down the price scale, we get to the ''tier 3's''.

So, what is the right price? Whatever you want to spend. [no offense intended]
 
Last edited:
james holdsworth said:
It's a fine line though, isn't it?

Then we get the ''tier 2'' of those brainwashed enough to spend an outrageous sum on a binoc. If we move farther down the price scale, we get to the ''tier 3's''.

So, what is the right price? Whatever you want to spend.[no offense intended]
Click to expand...

See, now that is what I am talkin' about. Everybody should just buy a pair of Sightron Blue Sky's and be happy. ;)

Now where is that sarcastic smiley when I need it?

:)
 
james holdsworth said:
It's a fine line though, isn't it?

The Genesis are pretty pricey, pricey enough that any ''sane'' person would think one ''brain-washed'' to spend $1000 + on a bunch of glass.

Why stop there though? I'm sure there are some very capable binoculars that can meet or exceed the Genesis, for many hundreds less - maybe even half that price depending on how ''discriminating'' we are going to be.

Then we get the ''tier 2'' of those brainwashed enough to spend an outrageous sum on a binoc. If we move farther down the price scale, we get to the ''tier 3's''.

So, what is the right price? Whatever you want to spend. [no offense intended]
Click to expand...

I agree with you, it's a judgement call, heck we all make them every day. My judgement call, once you hit that $1,000 mark it's real hard for a nitwit like me to see a difference. There was a post either here or the swfa forum a few years back where they stuck a bunch of neophites with a zenray top of the line model and then let them use a Swaro (I think, dont remember for sure). For the first hour or so most choise the Zen over the Swaro. The poster said he thought it was all related to eye relief. As the day wore on, most moved to liking the swaro better. So probably, the truth lies with what we see it to be. Is a top of the line Swaro or Zeiss better than the top of the line Vortex, no doubt many would say yes, but there are probably many like me who dont see it.

I cant see the difference in the top of the line FL and my conquest. Maybe there is a difference, but if so, I cant see it.

But if you look at my tag line, I stole from samandang, it pretty much says it all.
 
james holdsworth said:
It's a fine line though, isn't it?

The Genesis are pretty pricey, pricey enough that any ''sane'' person would think one ''brain-washed'' to spend $1000 + on a bunch of glass.

Why stop there though? I'm sure there are some very capable binoculars that can meet or exceed the Genesis, for many hundreds less - maybe even half that price depending on how ''discriminating'' we are going to be.

Then we get the ''tier 2'' of those brainwashed enough to spend an outrageous sum on a binoc. If we move farther down the price scale, we get to the ''tier 3's''.

So, what is the right price? Whatever you want to spend. [no offense intended]
Click to expand...

LOL, dead right James. Many years ago when I told a work colleague I had just spent £950 on a Zeiss FL (those were the days) she said 'my god you could buy a holiday for that'.

My question for Gwen today was going to be along the lines of 'what would you say to a satisfied £300 Opticron user who thinks you must have been hypnotised by the shop salesman to spend £900 on a Kowa?'

And don't forget the satisfied £150 porro user who blow all that cash on the Opticron.

Lee
 
A few thoughts I think relevant here and elsewhere in the Bf. bins. section. Not personal. No offence meant. I try to leave out a. much a.p. the subliminal and the sublime except on how the former may be suspected.

• A lot of disagreement in Bf. on finer variations in optical quality between bins is due to differences in visual acuity among users. ("Normal" is 20/20, 15/20 is less sharp, 20/15 more sharp; very many people are at 20/15 or better.) A person at 15/20 may well see as equal the optical quality of two bins which a person at 20/20 will see as different; so with 20/20 and 20/15.

My own v. a. is 20/15 as I reckon (*pl. see note). I can quite easily see that an "alpha" is better than a certain "non-a." which several or many people aver in Bf. and elsewhere is equal to alpha; so can a friend who, too, I reckon is at 20/15 if not better. (*Note: from the chart at the opticians. But the lady there was finicky about confirming this to me, prob. due to legal certification issues not relevant to me.)

A person at lesser acuity not aware of that may suspect humbug in those who claim to see a differrence.

What is said in the next two points is about opt. quality, at present, and is what I have gathered from numerous posts in Bf. Pl. forgive any omission. Names are in alphab. order.

• At 8x42/43 these are at the highest level. Leica Ultravid HD, Nikon EDG, Swarovski SLC HD, Sw. SLC (replacing previous), Zeiss Victory FL, Z. V. HT (replacing previous). No others.

• At 8x32/33 these are at the highest level. Leica Ultravid HD, Nikon EDG, Swarovski Swarovision, Zeiss Victory FL *and three more*, Kowa Genesis, Meopta /Euro HD, Zeiss Conquest HD.

A person who has used one of those three may mistakenly generalise that aplha quality is found in yet other bins much below alpha level in price.

So there. Non-Porsche people should be aware that *some* who drive these have a genuine appreciation of real quality/ies in the make or model, and the latter that *many* who resent them don't do so from envy.
 
Last edited:
As long as I find a non-alpha binocular that is good enough for me, I go for it and avoid buying that alpha. This way I got something I like without spending a fortune. For whatever reason, I always got sufficient performance in the price range about 400-700 Euro. This may change any time, but apparently the time has not yet come.

Cheers,
Holger
 
Pomp, I am not sure what you mean by the 15/20 is less sharp compared to 20/15. I am OD
15 or better and OS 20 with some astigmatism. I can agree with what you say about someone with lower eyesight might not notice a binocular with lower QC of image. I sold my brother a binocular that I thought was not that good and he really likes it. I had a Pentax 20x60 and the right side was soft, if it had been the left side I might of kept it, the fellow I sold it to[at a discount] liked it.​
 
Holger Merlitz said:
As long as I find a non-alpha binocular that is good enough for me, I go for it and avoid buying that alpha. This way I got something I like without spending a fortune. For whatever reason, I always got sufficient performance in the price range about 400-700 Euro. This may change any time, but apparently the time has not yet come.

Cheers,
Holger
Click to expand...

A very sensible way of controlling spend.

I take a different route while aiming to keep within the same price band - I buy secondhand.

Recent purchases, Zeiss 8x32 FL - £480 and Nikon 8x32 EDG - £750, both boxed and in mint condition.

Stan
 
Warning! This thread is more than 10 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Similar threads

M
Kowa Genesis XD 8x33 or Kowa BD II 8x42 XD?
Replies
15
Views
2K
stevenberk
S
J
Brief review of Kowa genesis 10x33 (In comparison with Swarovski EL 10x32 and others
Replies
10
Views
2K
jackjack
J
K
Kowa Genesis 8x33 vs…
Replies
10
Views
3K
kerrit
K
W
Where's the Love- Kowa Genesis vs The Rest $1000 Bins
2
Replies
29
Views
3K
Bentley03
B
E
Comparative review - Kowa 8x33 Genesis vs Swarovski 10x42 NL Pure
2
Replies
26
Views
11K
Paultricounty
P

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Back
Top