Need help ID'ing a Kingbird (AZ) (1 Viewer)

crispycreme · Nov 17, 2003

(Sorry, no photo)

The sighting was yesterday 11/16/03 near Phoenix, Arizona (in a man-made riparian preserve). Here are the vitals:

9-10 inches long

Seemingly thicker and longer bill than a Western or Cassin's. (which hints at a Tropical or Couch's)

Yellow-green underbelly color came up all the way to the white-gray throat (no gray in the breast). (again, which hints at a Tropical or Couch's)

Notched tail (Tropical or Couch's)

No white lining on tail (Cassin's, Tropical, or Couch's)

Light grey head and backside (typical of the Western, as Cassin's is dark gray, and Tropical / Couch's greenish-gray)

When I tried to plug in my ID at ebird.org (a free online site for recording findings), the site only allowed me to input the Cassin's, as it deemed the other three birds out of range or season. Unfortunately, the bird never peeped so I couldn't ID by sound.

This bird looked much more like a Tropical/Couch's (except for the backside) than any of the others (with the Couch's being *way* out of range, thus nearly eliminating it as a possibility). I suppose my question could be phrased as: are there known hybrids of these closely related birds, and if not, is there much deviation in bill size, color, and tail shapes? This bird *really* gave me a headache!

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

Larry Lade · Nov 17, 2003

Your post prompts me to respond.

1. I have included in my reported birds to eBird certain birds which I knew I had identified correctly and gotten the same result as you mentioned. The bird goes in your records as unconfirmed. So I would not let that bother you too much.

2. I snapped a photo of a "kingbird" a couple of years ago and send copies to three top birders here in Missouri and one in Colorado. Two thought is was a Western Kingbird, one thought it was a Western/Eastern hybrid and one thought it was a Cassin's Kingbird. I thought it was a Cassin's Kingbird and it is so recorded in my notes.

3. I am sorry that I cannot shed any light on the bird that you saw. It would be a very tough call!

Larry

Tero · Nov 17, 2003

I would look at all the pictures of Western Kingbird you can find. I only see them in summer, so I have no idea what they look like now.

No sign of notch here
http://www.birdsofoklahoma.net/Westernkingbd.htm

Larry Lade · Nov 17, 2003

Oh, I noticed that this is your first post to the forum. Welcome aboard. This forum has all manner of birders, from beginners to experts, all are welcomed. Looking forward to more of your post.

Most of the people posting on the forum are British as you probably noticed if you have done much browsing. We are gaining new members from the states as time goes on, which will make the forum more informative and educational in a broader scope.

Larry

crispycreme · Nov 17, 2003

Thanks for the replies and the welcome! Yes, I noticed this board was mainly for those on the east side of the Pond, but it's still one of the best birding forums I've found to date.

My fiancee and I are fairly new to birding (having only started in earnest early this year), and this quirky kingbird was our first sighting of such. I hope this one was atypical, and that every kingbird isn't so difficult!!

Dave B Smith · Nov 17, 2003

Welcome to Birdforum and unfortunately you are starting off with a question that will probably not be fully resolved. The Kingbirds you mention have so many qualities in common and enough variability amongst them to make it very difficult to positively ID sometimes even with a photo.

The description could easily fit the Tropical (since that is the most common in my area, I always seem to think of it first!). The notched tail is not heavily notched. The head often appears just light gray so I would not rule it out based on that aspect. I know they are in texas, so Arizona shouldn't be that much of a long shot.

Good luck, and yes, may your future Kingbirds be easier!

crispycreme · Nov 17, 2003

Tero said:
I would look at all the pictures of Western Kingbird you can find. I only see them in summer, so I have no idea what they look like now.

No sign of notch here
http://www.birdsofoklahoma.net/Westernkingbd.htm

I looked at several dozen pics over the weekend. In fact, my original assumption was a Western Kingbird when I first saw it on Saturday. But the lack of white on the tail was a killer, as that's one of the prime distinctions of the Western (as can be seen on the pic you provided). Fortunately, when I went back on Sunday, the bird was in the exact same place, and I was able to view it quite closely for several minutes (very tame bird!). That's when I noticed the other descrepancies I listed on the first post (edit - particularly the size of the bill, which was much heavier than a typical Western, or Cassin's for that matter).

Tero · Nov 17, 2003

I have no bird books here, but I suppose some variation would be possible, juveniles or moulting birds. Most birds have new feathers now, so it would not be worn feathers causing lack of white.

Couch's Kingbird
http://www.mbr-pwrc.usgs.gov/Infocenter/i4480id.html

click pic to enlarge

crispycreme · Nov 17, 2003

If it didn't have the gray back, it would have been easy to ID it as a Tropical, as all of the other features point in that direction (notched tail, heavy bill, yellow-green belly *and* breast, and an unusual but not impossible locale), but the back was definitely light gray - same color as the head. I don't have any pics of juveniles in my books, and haven't seen any on the net as of yet.

What makes this fun is, if it was indeed a Tropical, it would be nearly 200 miles north of it's northern range limit (it reportedly inhabits places like the Chiricauhua Mountains in extreme SE Arizona), and thus would be my first official 'vagrant'!

I emailed the people who run the preserve (it's called the Gilbert Water Ranch Riparian Habitat for those who want a *superb* birding locale for future trips) and told them where to find the bird in the park, and hopefully one of their gurus can go out and look and make a positive ID.

Strix · Nov 17, 2003

I have no experience with Cassin's or Tropical, but here's how I see it, from looking at a field guide. I would guess it to be Tropical. Western has white borders to the tail that are fairly obvious. Cassin's seems to have grayer breast, white tip on the unforked tail, and smaller bill. As I understand it, Couch's and Tropical are barely distinguishable from each other by looks. But the range seems to show Tropical would not be unheard of in your area. Are most kingbirds gone from the area right now? I've heard of Tropicals roaming north, particularly fall/winter, all the way up to Washington state/British Columbia. As far as the gray back, well, there may be some hybridization at some point, but to my eye the green isn't THAT dramatic in the field guide for an immature Tropical, or, this could just be an individual with a faded back. Hope someone else gets to see it and you can get some confirmation.

Strix · Nov 17, 2003

There seem to be a decent amount of Tropical pictures out there, probably because it's a good bird and it turns up as a vagrant occasionally in faraway places. Here's a few:

This one seems rather gray backed. It's not identified to whether it's a T or C, but Couch's looks even more green backed than Trop.

http://www.tulane.edu/~danny/photos.html

not a lot of color in this photo:

http://www.hevanet.com/winkg/birdphotos/trki.htm

more:

http://larsonweb.org/birds/kingbird/

http://www.47custer.com/2000/november/hingham_111200/

http://fog.ccsf.edu/~jmorlan/trki1.htm

the Sibley guide shows a juvenile. I would say the back is a bit less green than the adult, but still greenish gray. It shows an in-flight shot where the back is depicted as more gray than green.

Larry Lade · Nov 17, 2003

Hey, Crispy,

Just curious, which kingbird is your avatar?

Larry

crispycreme · Nov 17, 2003

Thanks Strix. I think those pics have confirmed (at least, for me) that it *was* a Tropic. I'm going to stick my tongue out at ebird.org and list it! :-D

Larry, it's a Tropical that I found on Google. It's almost the exact stance and in the same lighting that I saw my bird on Sunday. I'm convinced now of what it was.

Larry Lade · Nov 17, 2003

Crispy, I had a Tropical Kingbird at Portal, AZ, on May 22, 1995. In our two trips to Texas, I have seen many Couch's Kingbirds (no Tropical's). I also think you probaby had a Tropical Kingbird sighting.

Good birding, and say "Hi" to your fiance,

Larry

crispycreme · Nov 17, 2003

Larry Lade said:
Crispy, I had a Tropical Kingbird at Portal, AZ, on May 22, 1995. In our two trips to Texas, I have seen many Couch's Kingbirds (no Tropical's). I also think you probaby had a Tropical Kingbird sighting.

Good birding, and say "Hi" to your fiance,

Larry

Ah yes, the holy grail of Arizona birding - Portal, AZ. Arguably *the* best birding in all of the southwest. We haven't had the pleasure yet of making the trip down there (hopefully we will next spring). Any trogon sightings?

(sorry for drifting off topic, in my own thread even! For shame, crispy!)

Larry Lade · Nov 17, 2003

Yes, Crispy, glad you asked. We saw the Elegant Trogon at Herb Martyr Lake in the Cave Creek Canyon area. This was on May 24, 1995. One of our target birds for the trip.

Larry

Michael Frankis · Nov 17, 2003

Hi Crispy and welcome to BirdForum!

I can appreciate your difficulty with kingbirds, but can't really help - other than to say, you're not alone in coming to grief over trying to identify the things! After two trips, I finally decided on Couch's (in northeast Mexico), and both Western and Cassin's (in AZ, near the entrance to Chiricahua Nat. Mon.). But also lots in Mexico that I didn't dare pin a name on at all.

Well when you've got them sorted, then there's Myiarchus flycatchers to get even more bogged down in . . . and after those, there's Empidonax (even worse . . . )

Good luck!!

Michael

Strix · Nov 18, 2003

Glad you've got it figured out. Yeah, I've had ebird.org ask me if I'm REALLY SURE I just saw what I'm positive I saw.

Well, if you're just getting into birding, AZ is not a bad place to be. It's definitely on my list of places in the US to visit and bird.

Larry Lade · Nov 18, 2003

When we went to southeast Arizona in the Spring of 1995 I added 54 birds to my "life list". My total count of birds for Arizona is 143. This was truly a great place to bird.

Larry

Tero · Nov 18, 2003

If I saw a Kingbird that did not fit Western, I'm not sure I could name it, as they are all very similar. If you do not get views from all sides.

If one finds a Kingbird that has no notch in the tail and has no white on the edges either, it can be a Western immature. By one of my books.

Need help ID'ing a Kingbird (AZ) (1 Viewer)

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