New Generation Tract Toric 10X42 Schott HT (1 Viewer)

chill6x6 said:

Nothing personal with the Amazon reviews BC. There are a few nice reviews.. But consider a Wingspan 8X32 gets a rating of about 4.5...a Zeiss Conquest HD 8X32 has a rating of 3. Which is the better binocular?



I agree with the personal nature of binoculars. Lot's of nice choices out there too...

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Well it takes some discernment with any reviews. I don't take short sentence reviews into account and for me they have to refer to other quality optics as comparisons and they need to know correct binocular terms etc. A couple of times I've seen reviews that I know came from someone here because they said something similar in this forum. That always brings a smile.

[email protected] said:

I don't believe a lot of the binocular reviews on Amazon.com because you will see a really inexpensive binoculars like the Wingspan 8x32 getting high reviews. The reason is the people buying the Wingspan have never owned a Swarovski SV or Zeiss SF so they don't really know what good optics are all about. The Wingspan is the best binocular they have ever had so of course it is great in their eyes. The fact is they probably can't afford a $2K binocular or they don't really understand why anybody would spend that much on a binocular.

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So you're saying that unless someone owns or has had access to a $2k binocular they can't tell a good one from a crap one?
Well I've owned a Swarovski and have access to a Kowa Genesis both over $1200 and one at about $2K and guess what? I think the Celestron Trailseeker 8x42 and 10x32 are outstanding binoculars at $189 and compare favorably with those Alpha binoculars. I give them all five stars because IMO the differences are minor and a lot of people would agree. Now for your average buyer that's good news and true from my perspective. I have a $450 pair of Meopta binoculars that can't handle stray light or flaring or whatever it is I'm seeing when looking towards the sun, near as well as those Celestron's. I may have different criteria for my rating a binocular than you or someone else may have.

I honestly don't see how you would be doing the average buyer any favors by rating those Celestron's three stars. The idea of a rating is to help the buyer IMO.

I see so much disagreement here about the optical and build quality of binoculars that I'm not certain there are very many qualified to state with absolute certainty what a "good" binocular is or how it should be rated.

I find this a bit contradic-toric:

"New Flat Multi-coating which enhances overall light transmission over a wider spectrum of light (from 400-700nm), especially in the green color range."

Enhancing green (550 nm) more than the rest will not make the transmission curve flatter...

They do not tell us where the HT-glass is used, but I guess it's in the prisms?
In that case the same modest improvement as in the Leica UVHD+ could be expected.
Would be nice to have some figures of the ballpark before and after I guess.

black crow said:

So you're saying that unless someone owns or has had access to a $2k binocular they can't tell a good one from a crap one?
Well I've owned a Swarovski and have access to a Kowa Genesis both over $1200 and one at about $2K and guess what? I think the Celestron Trailseeker 8x42 and 10x32 are outstanding binoculars at $189 and compare favorably with those Alpha binoculars. I give them all five stars because IMO the differences are minor and a lot of people would agree. Now for your average buyer that's good news and true from my perspective. I have a $450 pair of Meopta binoculars that can't handle stray light near as well as those Celestron's. I may have different criteria for my rating a binocular than you or someone else may have.

I honestly don't see how you would be doing the average buyer any favors by rating those Celestron's three stars. The idea of a rating is to help the buyer IMO.

I see so much disagreement here about the optical and build quality of binoculars that I'm not certain there are very many qualified to state with absolute certainty what a "good" binocular is or how it should be rated.

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black crow,

Lately to me, CA has been hardly noticeable with more recent binoculars, even in the low/medium range, and I take it that otherwise 'stray light' includes the eliptic shadowy images which are more apparent in dimmer conditions, but agree that these can significantly interfere with 'easy viewing' and come into personal rating, being important factors for comparison.

In pictures Trailseekers look well built and they sound interesting but am way down the learning curve, so if that's not what you meant I haven't noticed what is termed flaring or veiling glare and must be missing something. Would you describe some more what effects of stray light you sometimes see?

Maybe I'm using the wrong terms. There's a lot I haven't bothered with because I didn't notice it until I started to hear about it. That's interesting to me in itself. Once I learn to notice something it can bother me where before it was of no consequence. When viewing things looking towards the sun with binocular like my meopro I get a bunch of light blocking out some of the view, usually the lower part of the view. If I really carefully position my eyes then I can get rid of some but not all of it. However with my Trailseekers I don't get this effect hardly ever. You'll have to tell me what this is. Whatever it is it makes the Trailseeker much more pleasant and easier to use looking towards the sun. I fixed this in my post to better reflect my lack of correct terminology. Thanks for pointing out my ignorance.

black crow said:

........ When viewing things looking towards the sun with binocular like my meopro I get a bunch of light blocking out some of the view, usually the lower part of the view. If I really carefully position my eyes then I can get rid of some but not all of it. ............ You'll have to tell me what this is. .........

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Sounds like what you are seeing is what some members call crescent glare because of the crescent shape it takes near the edge of the view. I am not sure if that is a technically correct term since not much comes up when Googled.

Here is a good post from Henry discussing glare with some photos.

https://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2948276&postcount=3

The crescent shaped glare you are seeing seems to be a form of veiling glare.

Sounds romantic when you say it but I don't like it. Thanks for the link. I think I better finally try to get a handle on this stuff. Then I can be even more dissatisfied with my binoculars.

typo said:

Thanks Bruce. I wasn't expecting that particular twist. Look forward to hearing what you make of it.

David

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David ...... I was not expecting that either. The Schott HT glass sounds like a good idea but I suspect it will be a while before I see the new model because I doubt I will be replacing my gen 1 10X42 anytime soon.

Chosun Juan said:

Cool ! :t:
..........
Get those things over to Allbino's, and Gijs, for testing Stat!
.........
Chosun :gh:

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That would be cool to get a transmission graph but considering Tract is a direct seller primarily in the US market, I doubt we will ever see transmission data from Allbino's or Dr. G. Darn.

cycleguy said:

Picture appears to be of the old UHD model as well as the reviews. I wonder if other parts of the web page have not yet caught up to the change???
CG

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The pictures are of the gen 1 but they should be replacing them with the gen 2 pictures soon. The body is unchanged except for the locking diopter which will hardly be noticeable. The ring under the eye piece saying UHD will remain unchanged because the new model still has all of the original UHD properties of FMC, ED glass, Phase and Dielectric prism coatings.

jgraider said:

Changes for the 8x42 Toric will happen later on this Summer.

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Interesting. My understanding is fall. Either way, figure second half of the year and hopefully for the Christmas shopping season.

jgraider said:

The current, (now previous?) Toric's already competed well with the Conquest HD, and anything else $1500 and less IME.

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I also have a Zeiss Conquest HD 10X42 and have compared the two. You are right, the gen 1 Toric competes well. I can pick up detail a little easier with the Conquest under certain lighting and background conditions but the difference is not great. I also give an edge to the Conquest for things like removable eye cups, an optional longer eye cup and an included high quality case. The Conquest is also one rugged binocular as shown in the video being run over by a truck and blasted with a shotgun! Pratcially speaking, it probably does not amount to much in most situations, especially considering the price difference with the closeout sale of the gen 1. I would keep the Conquest if I could only have one but I find myself using the Toric more, probably because it is the new kid on the block for me. The small optical adavantage I see in the Conquest may be challenged by the new HT glass and coatings of the gen 2 Toric.

bluespiderweb said:

.....
Maybe I'll get to see them next Fall at the Sportsman show near me where Tract will be. Thank you Bruce for that info too! I'll have to bring mine and see the difference. Wish it wasn't so far off!

PS I'm glad they didn't change the body-it's great just as it is!

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Tract is showing on the attendee list for the American Birding Expo Show to be held Sept 21 - 23rd, 2018 in Philadelphia, PN. Tract should be posting a blog entry and sending out an e-mail listing their upcoming show schedule. They intend to increase the number of shows. I suspect they will be weighted more toward the outdoor venues considering they compete in the hunting market.

I am also happy they retained the same body as I really like the handling of the one I have.

https://www.americanbirdingexpo.com/about-the-expo/vendors/?service_id=24

[email protected] said:

Thanks. Schott HT glass and improved coatings will make a big difference in the Tract's and make them even more of a value. They are already a remarkable bargain. It is amazing they can make all those improvements and only raise the price by $50.00.

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The normal price of the first gen was $664 and the normal price of the new gen is $694 so that is only an increase of $30 by my new math. I believe the new Toric is the lowest priced model on the market with Shott HT glass. I not sure if that is of any significance other than trivia considering all the varibles in grades of glass, where it is used and other factors.

chill6x6 said:

I meant to say thanks Bruce for the update earlier! Worthy improvements. The diopter adjustment DID move on me in the field so I like that. Pretty good value of the improvements for the amount of money although I though it was really a pretty good binocular to start with.
......

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You're welcome Chuck. I agree with you on the improvements. I had concerns when the announcement was made of a new generation that they might ruin a good thing but there is nothing in the changes that strike me as bad. One possible concern would be if the color balance got messed up with the new coatings but it sounds like it will be more neutral which I like. The diopter ring on mine is stiff and has not changed in use. Must be a sample variation issue. I have also not had any issues with falling or collapsing eye cups as a couple folks reported a while back.

[email protected] said:

..... If you want to upgrade though it will probably hurt the resale of your older Tract's .......

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:eek!: Say it ain't so. :-C

Vespobuteo said:

I find this a bit contradic-toric:

"New Flat Multi-coating which enhances overall light transmission over a wider spectrum of light (from 400-700nm), especially in the green color range."

Enhancing green (550 nm) more than the rest will not make the transmission curve flatter...
.........

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I was also wondering about what they meant. The gen 1 looks to have an ever so slightly warm bias to me leaning toward a slight amount of pink/red. I am wondering if they are reducing the warm which results in the yellow green to be more noticeable. In other words the change mentioned is in comparison to the gen 1 rather than in general terms.


One way to evaluate binoculars is to compare to other models. The comparisons I would like to see, and has been mentioned by others, is the new Toric to the 1) previous Toric, 2) the Zeiss Conquest HD and 3) the Maven B1. All are Kamakura and very similar.

Yeah, the more you know, the worse and better it gets....just depends on which things you fixate on! Otherwise, what matters is just enjoying them. Some have glare, some have CA, etc, but in reality, most of them work pretty darned well, and we're being picky. How often do we really glass near the sun? Not as much as not. And how often do we get the high contrast situations that bring up CA? Not that often, really. If you want perfection, then it's going to be a hard road ahead.

I think compromise is a good way to look at it, and if they tick most of your boxes, then a few faults here and there are acceptable to most users. If you choose the other road, then good luck to you!

black crow said:

....... I think I better finally try to get a handle on this stuff. Then I can be even more dissatisfied with my binoculars.

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So true. That made me think of the old proverb, "Ignorance is bliss".

Tract should hire this guy!

BruceH said:

David ...... I was not expecting that either. The Schott HT glass sounds like a good idea but I suspect it will be a while before I see the new model because I doubt I will be replacing my gen 1 10X42 anytime soon.




That would be cool to get a transmission graph but considering Tract is a direct seller primarily in the US market, I doubt we will ever see transmission data from Allbino's or Dr. G. Darn.




The pictures are of the gen 1 but they should be replacing them with the gen 2 pictures soon. The body is unchanged except for the locking diopter which will hardly be noticeable. The ring under the eye piece saying UHD will remain unchanged because the new model still has all of the original UHD properties of FMC, ED glass, Phase and Dielectric prism coatings.




Interesting. My understanding is fall. Either way, figure second half of the year and hopefully for the Christmas shopping season.




I also have a Zeiss Conquest HD 10X42 and have compared the two. You are right, the gen 1 Toric competes well. I can pick up detail a little easier with the Conquest under certain lighting and background conditions but the difference is not great. I also give an edge to the Conquest for things like removable eye cups, an optional longer eye cup and an included high quality case. The Conquest is also one rugged binocular as shown in the video being run over by a truck and blasted with a shotgun! Pratcially speaking, it probably does not amount to much in most situations, especially considering the price difference with the closeout sale of the gen 1. I would keep the Conquest if I could only have one but I find myself using the Toric more, probably because it is the new kid on the block for me. The small optical adavantage I see in the Conquest may be challenged by the new HT glass and coatings of the gen 2 Toric.




Tract is showing on the attendee list for the American Birding Expo Show to be held Sept 21 - 23rd, 2018 in Philadelphia, PN. Tract should be posting a blog entry and sending out an e-mail listing their upcoming show schedule. They intend to increase the number of shows. I suspect they will be weighted more toward the outdoor venues considering they compete in the hunting market.

I am also happy they retained the same body as I really like the handling of the one I have.

https://www.americanbirdingexpo.com/about-the-expo/vendors/?service_id=24




The normal price of the first gen was $664 and the normal price of the new gen is $694 so that is only an increase of $30 by my new math. I believe the new Toric is the lowest priced model on the market with Shott HT glass. I not sure if that is of any significance other than trivia considering all the varibles in grades of glass, where it is used and other factors.




You're welcome Chuck. I agree with you on the improvements. I had concerns when the announcement was made of a new generation that they might ruin a good thing but there is nothing in the changes that strike me as bad. One possible concern would be if the color balance got messed up with the new coatings but it sounds like it will be more neutral which I like. The diopter ring on mine is stiff and has not changed in use. Must be a sample variation issue. I have also not had any issues with falling or collapsing eye cups as a couple folks reported a while back.




:eek!: Say it ain't so. :-C




I was also wondering about what they meant. The gen 1 looks to have an ever so slightly warm bias to me leaning toward a slight amount of pink/red. I am wondering if they are reducing the warm which results in the yellow green to be more noticeable. In other words the change mentioned is in comparison to the gen 1 rather than in general terms.


One way to evaluate binoculars is to compare to other models. The comparisons I would like to see, and has been mentioned by others, is the new Toric to the 1) previous Toric, 2) the Zeiss Conquest HD and 3) the Maven B1. All are Kamakura and very similar.

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Bruce,

Tract should really hire you as a field representative after all this work you've done here in this thread! Good for you being able to keep it all straight and informative for all the replies you've answered! And they should pay you overtime besides! ; ) I'm kind of surprised one of the Tract people haven't been here yet, and a bit disappointed too. After all, it's free advertising, and they are dropping the ball here it would seem. Maybe they don't know about it yet, to be fair.

Right, I'm not in a hurry to turn mine in either for a new one-I'd have to see the difference right away to want one. Thanks for the update on the show in the fall by me, it should be a good one for me.

BruceH said:

That would be cool to get a transmission graph but considering Tract is a direct seller primarily in the US market, I doubt we will ever see transmission data from Allbino's or Dr. G. Darn.....

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Bruce, surely some enterprising enthusiast in the US could purchase one of the new HT's (preferably a current Gen 1 owner and in the same format), do a comparison whilst in the grip of new bin fever, and then ship it (them) off to Arek or Gijs for testing (including transmission graphs) for a couple of weeks. The time and cost outlay would be minimal.

Just think, if it was Chuck that did it, he'd only be down to 18 binoculars to choose from at any one time ! :-O



Chosun :gh:

"Tract is showing on the attendee list for the American Birding Expo Show to be held Sept 21 - 23rd, 2018 in Philadelphia, PN. Tract should be posting a blog entry and sending out an e-mail listing their upcoming show schedule. They intend to increase the number of shows. I suspect they will be weighted more toward the outdoor venues considering they compete in the hunting market."

Maybe Tract will have a big stack of the new model so you can trade your old ones in at the show! For $50.00 difference.:-O

[email protected] said:

"Tract is showing on the attendee list for the American Birding Expo Show to be held Sept 21 - 23rd, 2018 in Philadelphia, PN. Tract should be posting a blog entry and sending out an e-mail listing their upcoming show schedule. They intend to increase the number of shows. I suspect they will be weighted more toward the outdoor venues considering they compete in the hunting market."

Maybe Tract will have a big stack of the new model so you can trade your old ones in at the show!:-O

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We can hope, but not expect!

black crow said:

So you're saying that unless someone owns or has had access to a $2k binocular they can't tell a good one from a crap one?
Well I've owned a Swarovski and have access to a Kowa Genesis both over $1200 and one at about $2K and guess what? I think the Celestron Trailseeker 8x42 and 10x32 are outstanding binoculars at $189 and compare favorably with those Alpha binoculars. I give them all five stars because IMO the differences are minor and a lot of people would agree. Now for your average buyer that's good news and true from my perspective. I have a $450 pair of Meopta binoculars that can't handle stray light or flaring or whatever it is I'm seeing when looking towards the sun, near as well as those Celestron's. I may have different criteria for my rating a binocular than you or someone else may have.

I honestly don't see how you would be doing the average buyer any favors by rating those Celestron's three stars. The idea of a rating is to help the buyer IMO.

I see so much disagreement here about the optical and build quality of binoculars that I'm not certain there are very many qualified to state with absolute certainty what a "good" binocular is or how it should be rated.

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What I am saying is the majority of the people writing reviews on inexpensive binoculars on Amazon.com have not used an alpha binocular or have no desire or inclination to spend $3K to get one so they don't have anything to compare the cheaper binocular with. You are probably one of the few that have alpha's also. Unless you are a serious hunter or birder with an above average income I don't think you are going to buy a $3K binocular. I know what a lot of people think of $3K binoculars. I have been looking at Swarovski's in Cabella's with other customers next to me and when the salesman said oh that one is $2500.00 their eyes got big as saucers. The greatest majority of people do not understand spending that much money on a pair of binoculars.

Yes I see. Well most people are not into optics seriously and they only need to know that the view is pretty darn good for the money. Actually that's all I need to know. If my Celestron's had gotten less than the 4 1/2 and 5 star ratings and a good review from Best Binocular Reviews I would have missed out on a very inexpensive binocular I love. Here I'd give them a 4 star but anywhere else a solid 5. Yet I know they're not at all perfect. What they are is an awesome value that 90% of birders would likely be ok to thrilled with. I am. And for me that's part of my criteria for something being an "alpha". That's why I had no trouble letting go of a Swarovski to buy a Celestron. Lots of value for what I spent on the Celestron and in the field I was very content with them. I know a $2500 binocular wins technically but that's not my only criteria in rating optics. That's why I value SOME reviews on Amazon. I can pick out people who know some things about what constitutes. good low to mid priced binoculars. That's where I hunt. That's who I am.

Chosun Juan said:

Just think, if it was Chuck that did it, he'd only be down to 18 binoculars to choose from at any one time ! :-O



Chosun :gh:

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18? Oh...you must just be referring to just Swarovski's, correct? B


So tranmission graphs......

I'm thinking by now the transmission spectra is going to be pretty predictable nowadays. Variations for a quality product at least to me seem for the most part, SMALL. I'd say the previous model probably indicated 86-87% and the new model 88-89%. +/-1% of course!

BruceH said:

Sounds like what you are seeing is what some members call crescent glare because of the crescent shape it takes near the edge of the view. I am not sure if that is a technically correct term since not much comes up when Googled.

Here is a good post from Henry discussing glare with some photos.

https://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2948276&postcount=3

The crescent shaped glare you are seeing seems to be a form of veiling glare.

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Bruce:

You are bringing up some old memories from a large discussion on Birdforum.

That crescent glare issue was first brought to attention, with ZenRay introducing the 7x36 ED2 in 2009, when they first started.

The crescent glare issue was brought out by a few users, I bit and was one of
the first to complain of it. I talked to Charles back in the day, and he acknowledged it.

Holger Merlitz has a nice post on his website explaining the problem, how to
fix it, and that was done in an improved model, by adding a baffle to help.

So, with all of the talk about ZenRay lately, this one got my attention, it is
not found in many binoculars.

What was interesting, that were many deniers, who said that this new ZenRay binocular was the best thing ever produced.

I feel this post was a good place to memorize, on the most talked about
subject on this matter on Birdforum. Most binoculars do not have issues
like that.

Jerry

chill6x6 said:

18? Oh...you must just be referring to just Swarovski's, correct? B


So tranmission graphs......

I'm thinking by now the transmission spectra is going to be pretty predictable nowadays. Variations for a quality product at least to me seem for the most part, SMALL. I'd say the previous model probably indicated 86-87% and the new model 88-89%. +/-1% of course!

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LOL :-O

Respect Chuck :t:


I think your thoughts on transmission graphs are pretty spot on. It would be very interesting to see the two models tested.

There was speculation (unverified) by Tract that the original version was 1% behind an SLC, and peak values would be somewhere on the warm side. I think your figures for daylight values would actually test out within your margin of error!

Any gains are likely to be small (1~2%) and likely not even noticeable when viewing each model in isolation due to our ability to adapt to whatever is in front of us. A more neutrally balanced view and more vivid colours at the extremities of the spectrum would likely show up when A/B'ing the two (old/new) models.

Still, worthwhile gains - the more light transmitted to us, the less there is bouncing around and running amok inside the bin. :t:
That really puts the pressure on Nikon MHG's, Zeiss Conquest HD's (FL's, and even 'gulp' :eek!: the SF ! ) , Leica Trinovid's, Swarovski SLC's, and various Meoptas, Mavens, Bushnells, Opticrons, Kites, etc ........ :cat:

Good on them I say :t:



Chosun :gh:

What I would like to see on the new Tract 8x42 is just a little bigger AFOV. 57.6 degrees is a little bit narrow although I know Steve has measured it as being wider. The Tract 10x42 at 65 AFOV is very good. Tract's are already a very good view and with this new Schott HD glass and upgraded coatings they are going to be harder to compete with at their price point.