• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Declining Song birds..Farming practises (1 Viewer)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jane Turner said:
They do vary a lot in size.. Ive held one big female that was Gos-sized...and took a swipe at some crows when released...pigeons are not high in the diet preferences of majority Sparrowhawks though...

Sorry, but again I think you're wrong. The Spar that took our pigeons was average-sized. The average sized Spar is quite capable of taking the average sized pigeon. The weight of a bird means little, to a degree - the fight in the prey means an awful lot. Eyas accipitors will often try to kill prey that they cannot cope with - therefore they don't try again (let's take, for example, a female Gos and a hare - they fly them once, get kicked off, and don't want to try again). If the raptor is initially successful, then it will continue to prey on that species.

saluki
 
saluki said:
Sorry, but again I think you're wrong. The Spar that took our pigeons was average-sized. The average sized Spar is quite capable of taking the average sized pigeon. The weight of a bird means little, to a degree - the fight in the prey means an awful lot. Eyas accipitors will often try to kill prey that they cannot cope with - therefore they don't try again (let's take, for example, a female Gos and a hare - they fly them once, get kicked off, and don't want to try again). If the raptor is initially successful, then it will continue to prey on that species.

saluki
Hi Saluki,
I agree and having flown both there is no comparrison in weight between a Spa and Gos. A large female Sparrowhawk weighs in old money up to
13.5 ounces where as a small male goshawk weighs 1lb 5 ounces. A vast difference.
Misidentification can cause problems as in a case a few years ago saw a well known charity let 6 illegal young Peregrines be exported as Sakers.
I will not go into anymore detail on this one.
I wonder what will happen if a few Copers hawks pop up in the wild.
Saluki
 
Jane Turner said:
DDT had a direct effect on egg-shell inegrity so the effect was obvious. Any pesticide that reduces the amount of edible invertebrates inpacts the whole ecosystem in a smaller but equally damaging way.

Way forward.. yes demand to eat locally grown organic food...
Hi Jane,
Easier said than done when many farmers I have spoken to are banned by the Government from growing crops, due to the UK buying imports.
Suricate.
 
No one says that female Sprawks won't take pigeons.

1. So what
2. Its still not their preferred prey size according to all the literature on the species

Suricate..
Hi Jane,
Easier said than done when many farmers I have spoken to are banned by the Government from growing crops, due to the UK buying imports.
Suricate.
That stinks....but also sounds a little unlikely. I'd like to see the legistlation so I can start lobbying.
 
Jane Turner said:
Well as long as they carry on eating pigeons that ok. Plenty of them in urban envirnments. Mind you Sparrowhawks aren't much good a catching pigeons... big females can just about manage a Collared Dove if they are hungry.

That's the problem - how can you teach Sparrowhawks that racing pigeons are not on the menu, but that feral pigeons are okay?

One 'expert' came up with a feather-brained scheme where pigeons would be smeared with a foul-tasting substance and then deliberately released for the Sparrowhawk to attack and kill. Called 'Taste Aversion', the 'expert' claimed that the hawk would eventually learn to leave pigeons alone. But how many pigeons would be slaughtered in the process?

This would be sheer bl**dy cruelty in my book, as the 'goo' would impair the pigeon's ability to fly, giving it no chance of escape at all. And by the time the hawk got a 'taste' it would be too late for the pigeon anyway. Even if it survived, the pigeon's natural instinct would be to preen itself, resulting in one helluva mess.

Apart from that, it is against the law anyway to release one animal for another to chase and kill and I have no doubt that pigeon fanciers wouldl bombard both the police and the RSPCA with complaints if this scheme was ever tried!

As for their ability to catch racing pigeons, the Sparrowhawk will almost invariably come a poor second to a racing pigeon in level flight. But the hawk turns the tables by using a low-level attack, where it whips around the corner of a building such as pigeon loft, or through a convenient gap in a hedge to surprise its prey. This often happens when the racing pigeons are either taking a bath close to their loft, or shortly after while they are still drying out.

When it comes to the size of prey a Sparrowhawk can kill, the hen can, and often does, take racing pigeons. If she is disturbed, it is not unkinown for her to take off and carry the victim some distance before resuming her meal. That's the hardest part for pigeon fanciers to accept, because unlike the Peregrine Falcon which usually kills its prey outright by the sheer force of its strike, the Sparrowhawk simply pins it down and starts ripping off strips of flesh from the still living pigeon, which can take up to 20 minutes to die a slow, lingering death.

Having eventually killed a racing pigeon and dined on it, the Sparrowhawk makes no attempt to conceal the remains. In theory, the 'experts' tell us there is still enough meat for another two meals at least. But even if she does return for 'seconds', the carcass has probably been comsumed by a fox or, worse still, picked up and taken home by 'Tiddles' who then wrongly gets blamed for the killing. In the meantime, Mrs Sparrowhawk goes off to kill yet another racing pigeon.

A bit removed from Farming Practices and Declining Songbirds where the thread started, but hopefully of interest!

Anthony
 
Jane Turner said:
My understanding is that the levels of DDT in passerines was insufficient to impact there own reproductive success. The life span of most small passerines is 3 to 10 years, the high end being exceptional. That is insufficient time to accumulate sufficient DDT. Rators with their much lower breeding rate and much longer life expectancies had time to accumulate dangerous levels. You and I are full of the stuff too.

I understand what you are saying, but if that was the case, why didn't we get an explosion, or at least a significant increase, in the populations of passerines during the DDT years?
 
The simplest wy to avoid this is of course not to keep pigeons in the first place.. but since this is a WILD bird forum, its not the place to debate it. Have found the figures for pigeon predation.. and its incredbily low, highest for females in winter, but still below 1% of prey item.
 
scampo said:
I reckon that a problems with racing pigeons is that they seem to have lost the native ability to dodge out of the way of predators. Watching a peregrine go for a wood pigeon is very different from watching a peregrine go for a racer. The latter it never misses; the former is fascinating to watch - there's almost time to put bets on!

Scampo,

At the risk of a few more smart alec wisecracks about my age, are you seriously suggesting that it's possible for a Lancaster Bomber (Woodpigeon) to outstrip and out manoeuvre a Spitfire (Racing Pigeon) in flight? Not on your life, old boy!

The Woodpigeon has neither the speed or the stamina of a Racing Pigeon. As you should know, the Peregrine Falcon usually takes out a Racing Pigeon by striking it at the end of a high-speed stoop. But if the Racing Pigeon sees the falcon coming and is able to 'jink' out of the way, the contest then takes place on much more level playing field, with the end result being nothing like as predictable as you seem to imply.

In fact, Racing Pigeons can, and sometimes do, evade capture - often by flying headlong into trees or bushes in their desire to escape. Sadly this often causes them to break their wings or legs, which then results in a slow, lingering death.

Let me ask you a question; Why is it that you, and others like you, appear to glorify and take so much pleasure seeing one bird killing another? Isn't this exactly the same as watching a hound kill a stag, or a fox, or a hare? After all, they too are only following a natural instinct, aren't they?

Anthony
 
Dodging Peregrines has nothing to do with speed and loads to do with native wit.

You do seem to have a bit of a thing for pigeons Anthony!
 
"But even if she does return for 'seconds', the carcass has probably been comsumed by a fox or, worse still, picked up and taken home by 'Tiddles' who then wrongly gets blamed for the killing."

Saw this in action yesterday. Walking down the street saw "Tiddles" carrying a pure white dove (the man at the top of the road keeps them, flying in a flock of probably 30). The dove had a lot of breast feathers ripped out and was partially eaten.
 
Jane Turner said:
The simplest wy to avoid this is of course not to keep pigeons in the first place.. but since this is a WILD bird forum, its not the place to debate it. Have found the figures for pigeon predation.. and its incredbily low, highest for females in winter, but still below 1% of prey item.

Since we are currently not being rude to each other, I will restrict myself to saying that I thought we were discussing the effect that a wild bird (the Sparrowhawk) is currently having on a domesticated bird (the Racing Pigeon). I'm sorry if you find some of the information I'm putting forward unpalatable.

May I suggest that you have another look at the predation level, or better still locate a more reliable source to quote from. To even suggest that Sparrowhawk predation on Racing Pigeons is highest in winter shows a complete lack of understanding of the subject and can be summed up in one word - but if I use that word the Moderator will (rightly) chop me off. So let me just say it's wrong!

Sparrowhawks begin to build themselves up to peak physical condition in readiness for breeding in March until mid-April, which is a time of high predation on racing pigeons. The eggs are laid from mid-April through to mid-July, usually hatching between mid-May and mid-July. During this period, the much smaller male provides the food for both himself and his mate and so predation on racing pigeons falls significantly.

Once the young begin to fledge (between mid-June and the end of August) both parents resume hunting, with the result that Racing Pigeon predation rises sharply and peaks while they are feeding their dependent young as well as themselves. This is between mid-June and the end of September.

Therefore, the times when Sparrowhawk predation on Racing Pigeons is at its highest is between the beginning of March until mid-April, and again between mid-June and the end of September. These are the facts, so is there any wonder that pigeon fanciers get annoyed when such erroneous statements are being made that Sparrowhawk predation on Racing Pigeons is at its highest in winter. For a start, this is the time of year when Racing Pigeons are often kept in their loft due to the lack of daylight hours or inclement weather.

As for your throw-away line that 'pigeons should not be kept in the first place', this shows just how tunnel-visioned and intransigent some birders have become. At the risk of a bit more scoffing from some quarters, perhaps you should ask the members of our armed forces, particularly air-crew, whose lives were saved in WW2 by the heroic efforts by more than 200,000 racing pigeons given to the Government completely free of charge by Britain's pigeon fanciers!

Anthony
 
seb_seb said:
"But even if she does return for 'seconds', the carcass has probably been comsumed by a fox or, worse still, picked up and taken home by 'Tiddles' who then wrongly gets blamed for the killing."

Saw this in action yesterday. Walking down the street saw "Tiddles" carrying a pure white dove (the man at the top of the road keeps them, flying in a flock of probably 30). The dove had a lot of breast feathers ripped out and was partially eaten.

Thank you, that is EXACTLY the point I am making!

Regards,

Anthony
 
Jane Turner said:
Dodging Peregrines has nothing to do with speed and loads to do with native wit.

You do seem to have a bit of a thing for pigeons Anthony!

What's 'native wit' got to do with it - the Peregrine Falco and the Racing Pigeon aren't telling each other jokes you know!

And yes, I do have quite a thing about ALL birds - even the ones who dance backwards and are governed by the moon!

Miaow!
 
Anthony Morton said:
Since we are currently not being rude to each other, I will restrict myself to saying that I thought we were discussing the effect that a wild bird (the Sparrowhawk) is currently having on a domesticated bird (the Racing Pigeon). I'm sorry if you find some of the information I'm putting forward unpalatable.

Anthony

Actually I think you will find that this thread is about environmental effects on the population of passerines.
 
Anthony Morton said:
May I suggest that you have another look at the predation level, or better still locate a more reliable source to quote from. To even suggest that Sparrowhawk predation on Racing Pigeons is highest in winter shows a complete lack of understanding of the subject and can be summed up in one word - but if I use that word the Moderator will (rightly) chop me off. So let me just say it's wrong!

Anthony


I made no mention of racing pigeons.....it was all pigeons, so the percentage of domestic birds was even smaller.

Presumably all these sources are wrong too! Just some of the relevant N.European studies.

Uttendoefer, Orn. Berichte 1, 242-3 Neue Ergebnisse uber die Ernahrung der Greivolgel und Eulen.
Kramer Beitr. Vogelkde., 5 75-7.
Tinbergen, Ardea 29, 63-98
Opdam, De Havik, Urecht
Holstein Spurvhogen, Copenhagen
Sulkava, Aquilo, 6 18-31
Newton & Marquiss Raptor Res., 10, 65-71.
Glutz, Handbuch der Vogel Mitteleuropas 4.
Opdam Ardea, 63, 30-54
Owen Br.Birds 30, 122-6

Somone better tell the publishers, these are serious peer reviewed journals and academic texts!

Large birds (Jays, pigeons, etc) are most taken when there is a shortage of birds up to thrush sized it appear. One really desperate Finnish female had a go for a Black Grouse!
 
Hopefully that is an end to it Pete.. Sorry, but when someone suggests that data I present is (unprintable word) I do feel the need to show the evidence.

Perhaps we can now get this thread back to things that can be done to reduce environmental impacts on song birds and away from the pigeons!
 
My father piloted Lancs in the war (age 21!) and got shot down on bonfire night '44 and spent the next few months in Stalag Luft Three (the great escape one but Steve McQueen wasn't there). Three of his mates in there weren't so lucky though.... He didn't have any pigeons on board which perhaps explains his plight.

BTW what is the importance of Sparrowhawk predation on Racing Pigeons anyway? Apart from to someone who 'fancies' pigeons...?
 
Jane Turner said:
I made no mention of racing pigeons.....it was all pigeons, so the percentage of domestic birds was even smaller.

Presumably all these sources are wrong too! Just some of the relevant N.European studies.

Uttendoefer, Orn. Berichte 1, 242-3 Neue Ergebnisse uber die Ernahrung der Greivolgel und Eulen.
Kramer Beitr. Vogelkde., 5 75-7.
Tinbergen, Ardea 29, 63-98
Opdam, De Havik, Urecht
Holstein Spurvhogen, Copenhagen
Sulkava, Aquilo, 6 18-31
Newton & Marquiss Raptor Res., 10, 65-71.
Glutz, Handbuch der Vogel Mitteleuropas 4.
Opdam Ardea, 63, 30-54
Owen Br.Birds 30, 122-6

Somone better tell the publishers, these are serious peer reviewed journals and academic texts!

Large birds (Jays, pigeons, etc) are most taken when there is a shortage of birds up to thrush sized it appear. One really desperate Finnish female had a go for a Black Grouse!


You have listed a very impressive array of reference works - my word, you MUST have a large bookshelf - but you neglect to say when they were published, so I suppose they could be out of date. What a pity that you are not prepared to even consider the current first-hand reports coming from all over the UK, rather than relying on figures from the whole of Northern Europe. But then, isn't that the problem when your knowledge only comes from books and you ignore what's going on right under your nose?

The information I quoted earlier relates only to the UK and is taken from an article 'Pigeon Predators - The Sparrowhawk' published as recently as Friday, the 6th February 2004 in The British Homing World on page 91 - yes, only two days ago! It was written by Nevill Lewis, who is a well-respected full time ornithologist and NOT a pigeon fancier I might add. Why not obtain a copy and read it for yourself?

By the way, do Finnish Sparrowhawks tend to be larger than ours in the UK, in the same way that the Finnish Goshawk is larger than its British counterpart? But I suppose that would depend on whether you can still find a true British one that hasn't already got some Finnish blood in its veins from the escapees and birds 'lost' by falconers.

Anthony
 
Jane Turner said:
Actually I think you will find that this thread is about environmental effects on the population of passerines.

Yes it was but someone went off at a tangent and it wasn't me!

Anthony
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top