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Hi Ben

My head's beginning to hurt again:'D

Access and Facilities could be in the one heading, otherwise I think Facilities first maybe.

I don't really know what a 'Level 2' heading is, I'm afraid.

At the moment 'habitat' is being described in the first paragraph of most of the existing pages.

Maps: are you talking about 'maps of the site' or a map of how to get to the site?

Currently the list of Birds are at then end, before the Reviews, in their own section. I'd be prepared to shift them, but it will be a lot of work.

D
 
Access and Facilities could be in the one heading, otherwise I think Facilities first maybe.
My thinking was, you get there first (access) and then you use the facilities, but you might not go there in the first place if there are no toilets! :'D

I don't really know what a 'Level 2' heading is, I'm afraid.
==Level 1 Heading== is the biggest text and shows as 1, 2, 3, etc. in the contents. ===Level 2 Heading=== is the second biggest text and shows as 1.1, 1.2, 2.1, etc. in the contents.

At the moment 'habitat' is being described in the first paragraph of most of the existing pages.
Okay, so another heading then... I was thinking in terms of the site article I've been working on for my local patch, which currently has a 10-paragraph habitat description! ;)

Maps: are you talking about 'maps of the site' or a map of how to get to the site?
Map of the site showing paths, facilities, named areas and habitats.

Currently the list of Birds are at then end, before the Reviews, in their own section. I'd be prepared to shift them, but it will be a lot of work.
Well it's only worth moving if we think the structure improves... moving is surely just a simple copy and paste job though (quicker than typing a new heading)... I think I just volunteered myself :-O
 
OK I've copied that Berney Marshes one from the link above and put some headings in. I can't attach to a post so I'll copy it into the next post, we'll then get an idea of how it will look.

We can then 'play' about with it a bit.

D
 
Berney Marshes and Breydon Water

OVERVIEW
A large tidal estuary, the most easterly in Britain, Breydon Water has long been famous as a haunt of large numbers of waders and waterfowl. A popular shooting area for centuries, this still continues but on a much smaller scale but since the mid-1980s the RSPB has managed and protected much of the estuary and nearby marshes. Three rivers, the Bure, Waveney and Yare, enter Breydon Water, the tidal stretch of which is almost 5km long and more than 1.5km wide in places. Low tide exposes vast areas of mudflats and saltings and there are extensive areas of wet grassland bordering the estuary. Nationally important numbers of wintering and passage waders and waterfowl occur here and the area has a good record for attracting rarities. To the south of Great Yarmouth the outlet to the sea can be a good spot for gulls and other seabirds.

BIRDS
Breeding species include Little Grebe and Great Crested Grebe, Mute Swan and feral Greylag Goose, and there is a thriving Common Tern colony on an artificial island. In the meadows, Northern Lapwing, Common Snipe, Common Redshank and Yellow Wagtail breed, all species currently undergoing a decline over most of Britain and other breeding waders include Oystercatcher, Ringed Plover and a small number of Little Ringed Plover. Black Redstart breeds at the power station to the south of Great Yarmouth.
Greater White-fronted Goose and Eurasian Wigeon winter in nationally important numbers and a variety of other ducks and geese can be seen as well as Bewick's Swan. More than 20,000 Northern Lapwing winter and other waders include Golden Plover, Grey Plover and Ringed Plover Snipe, godwits and Eurasian Curlew. Eurasian Sparrowhawk, Hen Harrier and Short-eared Owl regularly hunt the area in winter, often joined by Merlin, Peregrine Falcon and Rough-legged Buzzard. Saltings and grasslands attract Snow Bunting and Lapland Bunting and Twite and other finches.
During passage periods the diversity of waterfowl and wader species increases and there are few species from either group that do not occur. Dark-bellied Brent Goose is numerous on passage. Eurasian Spoonbill and Pied Avocet are annual visitors and many other waders are usually present. Other migrants include scarcer seabirds such as Black Tern and Mediterranean Gull and raptors including Osprey and Northern Hobby. Its position on the North Sea coast makes the Breydon Water area ideal for observing passerine migrants and large 'falls' can occur in certain weather conditions. Divers, grebes and gulls, sometimes skuas, Northern Gannet and Northern Fulmar, can be seen at sea from the rivermouth. Glaucous Gull is often present in winter and Purple Sandpiper is regular at Yarmouth harbour.
The long history of shooting over Breydon Water and the surrounding marshes has resulted in a long list of rarities and just as many are recorded today. Of the larger wading birds species such as Little Bittern, Cattle Egret and Black-crowned Night Heron, Squacco Heron and Purple Heron have been recorded as well as Black Stork and White Stork and Glossy Ibis. Escaped flamingoes and pelicans often manage to find their way to this estuary. Rare waterfowl have included Lesser White-fronted Goose, American Wigeon, Ring-necked Duck and Bufflehead but the list of waders is excellent for an east coast location. From North America have come Pectoral Sandpiper, White-rumped Sandpiper and Buff-breasted Sandpiper, Dowitcher, Greater Yellowlegs and Wilson's Phalarope. More easterly species have include Sharp-tailed Sandpiper and Broad-billed Sandpiper, Great Snipe and Terek Sandpiper.

GENERAL INFORMATION
Breydon Water is the most important estuary for birds on the East Anglian coast and situated close to the very popular tourist centre of Great Yarmouth. There are public footpaths along both north and south shores and hides at the eastern end. One of the best spots is the mudflats in the north-eastern corner on a rising tide. To view the main channel for diving duck and grebes the southern footpath is best.
Facilities: The staff of the Breydon Water RSPB Reserve arrange boat-trips on the first Sunday of each month. Park at the Great Yarmouth ASDA store to visit this reserve and for the nearby Berney Marshes reserve park beside the Berney Arms. This reserve lies on the extensive Halvergate Marshes, mainly wet grazing land with pools and ditches, excellent habitat for wintering Bewick's Swan and Eurasian Wigeon among others.
Accommodation is plentiful in Great Yarmouth and nearby villages but this area is extremely busy in summer and advance booking may be necessary.

Contacts: RSPB etc

SPECIES
Birds you can see here include:
Red-throated Diver, (scarce W), Black-throated Diver, Little Grebe, Great Crested Grebe, Red-necked Grebe, Slavonian Grebe, Northern Fulmar, Northern Gannet, Great Cormorant, Grey Heron, Eurasian Spoonbill, Mute Swan, Bewick's Swan, Whooper Swan, Greater White-fronted Goose, Greylag Goose, Canada Goose, Dark-bellied Brent Goose, Egyptian Goose, (scarce), Common Shelduck, Eurasian Wigeon, Gadwall, Common Teal, Mallard, Northern Pintail, Garganey, Northern Shoveler, Common Pochard, Tufted Duck, Greater Scaup, Common Eider, Long-tailed Duck, Common Scoter, Velvet Scoter, Common Goldeneye, Smew, Red-breasted Merganser, Goosander, Marsh Harrier, Hen Harrier, Eurasian Sparrowhawk, Common Buzzard, Rough-legged Buzzard, Osprey, Common Kestrel, Merlin, Northern Hobby, Peregrine Falcon, Red-legged Partridge, Grey Partridge, Water Rail, Common Moorhen, Common Coot, Eurasian Oystercatcher, Pied Avocet, Little Ringed Plover, Common Ringed Plover, Kentish Plover, Eurasian or European Golden Plover, Grey Plover, Northern Lapwing, Red Knot, Sanderling, Little Stint, Temminck's Stint, Curlew Sandpiper, Purple Sandpiper, Dunlin, Jack Snipe, Common Snipe, Black-tailed Godwit, Bar-tailed Godwit, Whimbrel, Eurasian Curlew, Spotted Redshank, Common Redshank, Common Greenshank, Green Sandpiper, Wood Sandpiper, Common Sandpiper, Ruddy Turnstone, Arctic Skua, Mediterranean Gull, Little Gull, Black-headed Gull, Common Gull, Lesser Black-backed Gull, Herring Gull, Glaucous Gull, Great Black-backed Gull, Black-legged Kittiwake, Sandwich Tern, Common Tern, Arctic Tern, Little Tern, Black Tern, Stock Dove, Common Wood Pigeon, Common Cuckoo, Short-eared Owl, Common Swift, Eurasian Skylark, Sand Martin, Barn Swallow, Northern House Martin, Meadow Pipit, Rock Pipit, Yellow Wagtail, Pied Wagtail, Black Redstart, Eurasian Blackbird, Fieldfare, Song Thrush, Redwing, Mistle Thrush, Sedge Warbler, Eurasian Reed Warbler, Bearded Tit, Blue Tit, Great Tit, Long-tailed Tit, Common Magpie, Rook, Carrion Crow, Common Starling, House Sparrow, Eurasian Tree Sparrow, Chaffinch, European Greenfinch, European Goldfinch, Eurasian Linnet, Twite, Lapland Bunting, Snow Bunting, Yellowhammer, Reed Bunting

EXTERNAL LINKS


REVIEWS
 
My thinking was, you get there first (access) and then you use the facilities, but you might not go there in the first place if there are no toilets! :'D

OK

Ben said:
==Level 1 Heading== is the biggest text and shows as 1, 2, 3, etc. in the contents. ===Level 2 Heading=== is the second biggest text and shows as 1.1, 1.2, 2.1, etc. in the contents.

Thanks. I know what you're talking about now LOL

Ben said:
Okay, so another heading then... I was thinking in terms of the site article I've been working on for my local patch, which currently has a 10-paragraph habitat description! ;)

Ye gods!:cool:

Ben said:
Well it's only worth moving if we think the structure improves... moving is surely just a simple copy and paste job though (quicker than typing a new heading)... I think I just volunteered myself :-O

There's hundreds of sites:eek!:

D
 
I wondered if the Contents box should go after the Overview.

What's the thoughts on that?

D
 
I wondered if the Contents box should go after the Overview.

What's the thoughts on that?

D
Is it placed automatically directly before the first heading (when there're two or more headings)? If so, then leaving out the overview heading should do what you want.
 
Looks to me like the Contents box is placed before the first heading, checked a few locations.
Where there are reviews, are we going to have a set lay out for them. I've noticed in a few instances that the review has included a 'pros' and 'cons' section. Maybe encourage people to give theirs by including those as second level titles? vis Blacktoft Sands http://www.birdforum.net/opus/Blacktoft_Sands_RSPB_(England)

I've played about with the page since first posting this Ben, added a picture etc, what do you think.
 
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hmmm thanks for posting that link Keith

Not too keen on the position of the Contents box there - too much white space.

If Ben is right and we do have a heading of 'Overview', this box would then appear at the top? Could we then put a phtograph on the RHS of this to fill in some of this space?

D
 
I have not previously chimed in, but here are a few comments:

I like the more structured version included in this thread better than the version with fewer headings given as a link to Blacktoft Sands. More headings of course means that the author should have some disciplin to awoid repetitions.

I think the list of birds given in small print with no spaces or structure is booring. Could it be possible to have a template that reformats the output into columns with check-boxes for production of a checklist? (I know this is a tall order, but by asking the worst I can get is a "No"). The proper heading for this section should either be "complete list of birds" or "Check-list". "Birds" does not work for me when the previous section also has a lot of bird-specific info.

The reviews in the linked to example seems to take up a lot of space, to give information that really should be included already above.

Niels
 
Looks to me like the Contents box is placed before the first heading, checked a few locations.
Where there are reviews, are we going to have a set lay out for them. I've noticed in a few instances that the review has included a 'pros' and 'cons' section. Maybe encourage people to give theirs by including those as second level titles? vis Blacktoft Sands http://www.birdforum.net/opus/Blacktoft_Sands_RSPB_(England)

I've played about with the page since first posting this Ben, added a picture etc, what do you think.
Generally looks good as it is at the time of my post. I really like balancing the contents with a photo (although the photo isn't showing up yet for me... I guess it's a test idea?).

I've seen on some sites that pros and cons as level 3 headings makes the Reviews section really dominate the contents, so definetly agree about having them as not proper headings (so they don't appear). In fact, when there are more than 3-4 reviews the same thing starts to occur with just the review title (i.e. "Ben M's review"), so we might even think of making these not proper headings... otherwise we should probably make Reviews the very last section, so a entry with 10 or so reviews doesn't break up the important titles in the contents. Will anyone actually want to click on a specific reviewer's review in the contents? Probably not. Much better to have a structured contents that is potentially identical for every site.

Another minor point I notice in the entry is that the level 1 headings are bolded by adding ''' around them. This is generally regarded as bad practice (whether done originally by the system or by someone editing). Heading styles should only be changed in their central definition (i.e. the stylesheet, if you're familiar with that term).

I think this is a good start, which is just what we needed to really get things moving :clap:

I'll do a little work on it now... which can always be rolled back if I muck it up ;)
 
I like the more structured version included in this thread better than the version with fewer headings given as a link to Blacktoft Sands. More headings of course means that the author should have some disciplin to awoid repetitions.
Yes, I think we are all agreed on that, but it will require some thorough work on the current location articles. Also, I think this was just a starting point to realize the ideas we've been discussing, and see how they look.

I think the list of birds given in small print with no spaces or structure is booring. Could it be possible to have a template that reformats the output into columns with check-boxes for production of a checklist? (I know this is a tall order, but by asking the worst I can get is a "No"). The proper heading for this section should either be "complete list of birds" or "Check-list". "Birds" does not work for me when the previous section also has a lot of bird-specific info.
Good comment, and funny you should mention the checklist... I was considering writing a little bit of software that parses the birdlist code into a checklist allowing you to tick/untick species and generate the updated code for an article, when changes are required. (Yes, it's overkill, but that's me! :'D)

The reviews in the linked to example seems to take up a lot of space, to give information that really should be included already above.
Yes, I agree. Previously, I mentioned summarising them or removing them altogether. They're really just a legacy of the old system, and - in my opinion - contravene the ethos of Opus. I would feel bad deleting them though! |:(|
 
Ben said:
Another minor point I notice in the entry is that the level 1 headings are bolded by adding ''' around them. This is generally regarded as bad practice (whether done originally by the system or by someone editing). Heading styles should only be changed in their central definition (i.e. the stylesheet, if you're familiar with that term).

Sorry that was me mucking about with it. Wondered if it would look better with the headings Bold. (sshhh didn't know it was bad practise <goes away and hides>)

I'm with you on the Reviews.

I wonder why the photo isn't showing for you, though Ben. It was for me and Keith:h?:

D
 
Sorry that was me mucking about with it. Wondered if it would look better with the headings Bold. (sshhh didn't know it was bad practise <goes away and hides>)

I'm with you on the Reviews.

I wonder why the photo isn't showing for you, though Ben. It was for me and Keith:h?:

D
Don't worry about the headings... only a pedant like me would know :'D

Photo shows when I turn down my paranoid security settings: problem solved |=)|
 
njlarsen said:
I like the more structured version included in this thread better than the version with fewer headings given as a link to Blacktoft Sands. More headings of course means that the author should have some disciplin to awoid repetitions.

I've had another play with it and put some more headings in.

What thoughts now?

http://www.birdforum.net/opus/Blacktoft_Sands_RSPB_Reserve_England

D
 
I'll merge my updates with your latest ones... hang on ;)
Done... please comment on anything you're* not keen on.
I liked your idea of putting Other Wildlife directly after the Birds section (I had it in Site Info, but wasn't happy with it). I preferred the bird list under the Birds section.

The style for reviews is a bit fiddly to set-up, but I think it looks reasonable and the separate reviews don't appear in the contents |=)| I'm not sure about the horizontal lines to separate each one though.

I chose the headings based on previous discussion and also where I think the typeof information changes... please suggest better headings if you* want |=)|

* I mean anyone reading this |=)|
 
To me that looks fine Ben - well done.

Only comment is that it's lost the link to the 'Yorkshire' page by changing it to 'RSPB'

D
 
Only comment is that it's lost the link to the 'Yorkshire' page by changing it to 'RSPB'
I didn't see a Yorkshire category in the one I edited... but I've now changed the RSPB one into Yorkshire and moved it to the front. I think it needs adjusting further to find the Yorkshire page though.

I added one for RSPB as I was actually expecting categories to behave differently... not like direct links, but like tagging in blogs: clicking on a category/tag of RSPB will automatically list all other entries with the category/tag of RSPB. So some of my previous thoughts concerning categories are therefore wrong.|:x|

Hopefully others will give their views on the current structure/style too |=)|
 
For Categories, I think this http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=86206 is all we have for info so far. Notice my question at the end, I still think I have a lot to learn!

It looks like the lines across appear after each time you go to a level 1 heading after having stayed with level 2 for a while.

I like the way things look right now, there is enough structure to make it usable, without going overboard.

There is a acronym under external links for RSPB, I assume that is a link that should be added.

cheers
Niels
 
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