Promaster binoculars (1 Viewer)

FrankD said:

Maybe we can get Doug to comment on the less expensive model. If they really are that good and for that price then they are going to be a hot commodity rather quickly.

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Frank, maybe you could PM him and ask him? I asked him about the range yesterday (and pointed to these threads). But a request from someone with "reputation" would count for a bit more.

Perhaps he'd be willing to send a loaner around?

Or maybe he wouldn't want it distracting from the more profitable (assuming the same margin) ELX?

There are lots of 8x32s out there we do not have much data on. For instance the Vortex
http://www.eagleoptics.com/index.asp?pid=4837
Someone in the market for a 300 dollar pair should check them out. If no good, send them back.

I am really only looking for an 8x42 better than the Monarch 8x42 right now. The Promaster ED I have some reservations about. I plan to keep these for years, I do not need to buy more than one 8x42.

Tero said:

There are lots of 8x32s out there we do not have much data on. For instance the Vortex
http://www.eagleoptics.com/index.asp?pid=4837
Someone in the market for a 300 dollar pair should check them out. If no good, send them back.

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I'd love to see a comparison about the Vortex Fury 8x32 too. Comparison with:

Leupold Katami 8x32
Leupold Yosemite 6x30 and 8x30
EO Ranger SRT 8x32
Bushnell Legend 8x32
Pentax SP 8x32
Minox 8x32 (there area couple of models)

as they seem to be current "standards".

All of those $300 to $400. So this is comparing up the market (for $150 8x32s). Obviously I have big expectations.

I include the porro competition too to answer the question: do you need to spend more than $90 before you move to, say, the $500 ELX?

For the 8x42 there is a similar list (including the Yosemites, I think) with the Monarch's, the various Vortex bins (Razor, Viper) and Pentax 8x42. I'm sure more experienced users will not have a problem coming up with $400 to $800 bins to compare the ELX to.

Of course if there are people who write for birding magazines I'm sure they should be taking a hint! This is the sort of area most "enthusiastic" birders will buy bins.

I am really only looking for an 8x42 better than the Monarch 8x42 right now. The Promaster ED I have some reservations about. I plan to keep these for years, I do not need to buy more than one 8x42.

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What are you reservations (other than you haven't tried one yet)?

Warranty. You do not want to repair anything these days except by warranty.

Tero said:

Warranty. You do not want to repair anything these days except by warranty.

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True:

But they do have a "run over it with a truck and send it and $10* and get a new one" warranty.

They might be new to good bins but they've been around a while selling camera and other products.

I'd worry more about Swift not being around (or your or me not being the first owner of a Swift bin so the warranty doesn't apply). That seems like a more reasonable worry.

* I don't actually know how much the charge is but there is one.

Of course, I do not have an 8x42 ED binocular...

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Come on now Arthur. Two miles? You bought those beautiful little 8x32 FLs from Doug. What would another bike ride really cost you? It would be good exercise. []

FWIW, I spoke to Doug today about the regular Elites. He did say they were a step down from the ELX EDs. However, for the price he thought they offered respectable performance.

...also, all the new Promaster models are up on Cameralandny's website now.

Tero,

I think you have a legitimate concern with the warranty issue. But, as Kevin pointed out, they are basically a "No Fault-we will fix it" type of warranty and Promaster has been in the optics business for some time. Also consider we are talking about Doug here. If the manufacturer doesn't treat you right then I would be willing to bet that Doug will. I also would have a hard time believing that he would deal with a company that does not treat their customers well. He told me a story today about his working with them on redeveloping a popular tripod design. He must have some influence with them to pull that kind of activity.

Just my two cents but I still really enjoy the Promater Elite ELX EDs. There is no comparison between them and the Celestron Ultima DX 8x32s. The ED's image is brighter with more contrast and moderately sharper in the center of the field. The Ultima's is slightly wider and gives slightly more of a 3D effect because of the porro design but those are the only two optical issues where they actually beat the ELX EDs.

FrankD said:

Come on now Arthur. Two miles? You bought those beautiful little 8x32 FLs from Doug. What would another bike ride really cost you? It would be good exercise. []

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Hello Frank,

It would cost me about $545, with tax. As for exercise, I have been climbing to the tenth floor of my block of flats, apartment house, as daily exercise.

For triple the price, I could get a demo 8x42 FL which
>would not have an imitative open bridge [Mum told me never to cross an open bridge]
>would have a well defined glass component [How much ED do you get?]
>would have a locked dioptre settting, although my Fl does get unlocked
>would have higher light transmission from Abbe-König prisms, while the Promaster does not even have dielectric mirrors
>would have a slightly wider FOV
>would break the bank [Has anyone else noticed hard times?]

Somewhere I wrote that ED/HD/FL glass was the only way to observe, so I welcome a binocular which has it and does not cost a fortune, even if it lacks the higher light transmission of either AK prisms or dielectric mirrors. However that lack puts this binocular well behind the cutting edge [Not to be confused with cutting up an EDG]

On the other hand, the medical "cafeteria plan" owes me $600 of my own money. [I really do not care to explain that one to those who enjoy a less Byzantine health insurance arrangement]

Happy bird watching,
Arthur :egghead:

Now that Vortex has their focus/diopter issue fixed, there should be some more information coming forth. I have a 6.5x32 Fury and for all intents and purposes it is a roof version of the Yosemite optics wise. Its optics are also very similar to the 6x Katmi. I think it is a little better than the Bushnell Legend. They are not quite as sharp as my Swift 7x36. I did have a decent chance to compare the 6.5 x32 Fury to the 8x32 Fury. I liked the 6.5 better, but if you are the sort who likes 8x, the Fury is a real decent glass.

As far as image goes, there is probably no good reason to spend more than for a Yosemite untill you get to the Promaster ELX ED. I think a lot of reservations about that binocular will vanish after using one. You don't improve that image much at $1,500.

Thanks Steve for the Fury input. I think the 8x32 will compare well with other 8x32. If I could just find some to check out. I mean ANY Furys.

FrankD said:

He told me a story today about his working with them on redeveloping a popular tripod design. He must have some influence with them to pull that kind of activity.

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From their company emails it seems Doug does the sport optics side and his brother does the camera side and they've been selling Promaster on teh camera side for a while.

FrankD said:

Just my two cents but I still really enjoy the Promater Elite ELX EDs. There is no comparison between them and the Celestron Ultima DX 8x32s. The ED's image is brighter with more contrast and moderately sharper in the center of the field. The Ultima's is slightly wider and gives slightly more of a 3D effect because of the porro design but those are the only two optical issues where they actually beat the ELX EDs.

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Are you trying to tempt me

How is the distortion in the ELX EDs?

How is panning?

SteveC said:

Now that Vortex has their focus/diopter issue fixed, there should be some more information coming forth. I have a 6.5x32 Fury and for all intents and purposes it is a roof version of the Yosemite optics wise. Its optics are also very similar to the 6x Katmi. I think it is a little better than the Bushnell Legend. They are not quite as sharp as my Swift 7x36. I did have a decent chance to compare the 6.5 x32 Fury to the 8x32 Fury. I liked the 6.5 better, but if you are the sort who likes 8x, the Fury is a real decent glass.

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That's an interesting comparison.

How we just need to compare the Promaster Infinity Elite 8x32 to one of: Yosemite, Fury or Katamai (or Legend) to get a rough position on the tree. If it equals any of those it will be punching above it's weight but unless its a lot better than the Yosemite that will have the price advantage.

I'm finding the Yosemite is my "go to" bin of the bins I have. Though I've been using the Diamondbacks for the past couple of days.

SteveC said:

As far as image goes, there is probably no good reason to spend more than for a Yosemite untill you get to the Prostar ELX ED. I think a lot of reservations about that binocular will vanish after using one. You don't improve that image much at $1,500.

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I suspected that was the case. Thanks for confirming my prejudices

Does the Eaglet 7x36 best the Yosemite? In a noticeable manner?

So this simplified bin choices for the new birder:

1. Price conscious (or best below $500): Yosemite (6 or 8)
2. Has $300 and needs to look cool with a roof: Fury or Katami (6 or 8)
3. Has $500 and wants very good optics: ELX

The question is can the cool kids get a good 8x32 roof at $150.

Simple. I guess we can wind up this forum now

Kevin,

OK, I will try to get to all of your points. First I do have both the 6x and 8x Yosemite. I did put them up against the Promaster (there, I got it right this time) ELX ED. The Yosemities are good, but they are not in the Promaster class. Especially if you take them all the way out to Jupiter and its moons. Then there is no comparison. The 6.5 Fury I might add is better at Jupiter distance than the 6x Yosemite. The Yosemites do not quite resolve Jupiter into a distinct blue ball, the Fury, just barely. The moons are also easier to see with the Fury, compared to the 6x Yosemite. Whether optics or +.5x I don't know.

The Fury and either Yosemite is not quite as sharp as the 7x36 Eaglet. The Eaglet will turn Jupiter into a distinct blue ball, but the edges of the planet are noticeably sharper with the ELX. The Swift is about halfway between the Fury/Yosemite and the ELX. The Swift is not as sharp in any viewing situation as the ELX, while it can generally be said to be sharper in the same situation than the Fury/Yosemite. Where some will really prefer the Fury/Yosemite is the noticeably wider FOV. If you are a FOV fan, the Fury may well be your choice over the Swift.

The 8x ELX is good enough at distance resolution, I am seriously considering selling my 10x Viper as well as the 8x42 Monarch, I am really considering the ELX and something like the Minox 13x56 and a tripod. The Yosemites stay. The Swift definitely stays, just for its compact size. I sold the Fury to my brother, so I still can have access to them.

Edit:
I would really like the chance to do a head to head with the ELX and a Razor and a Meostar, but untill I do, I defer to Frank D's judgement. He's had his mitts on more different glass than I. If he comes out in the open and tells us he's selling EL and FL and buying ELX, that says something. I guess the question is do we add a do we need a premium class for the "wanting to be cool" birder, and put the Promaster there? I am actually quite curious about just what makes that Promaster tick. Is it some sort of design tweak or is it an vastly more economical manufacturing process? Or is Promaster using it as a lost leader to position itself for a planned $8-900 glass that will take a serious shot at the alpha's?

Second edit:
The Swift Eaglet Series is positioned just about with the Vortex Viper class. Hard to see a real practical difference, except Vortex doesn't have a good Viper class compact. They didn't have the Fury out when I bought the Swift. Maybe that's where a not quite premium, but darned close for less than $500 category should be added.

Steve C said:

[lots of really excellent comparisons deleted]

I guess the question is do we add a do we need a premium class for the "wanting to be cool" birder, and put the Promaster there?

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Yeap, I should have added an "else" clause:

4. "Dudes" and those with the money: Euro3 (take your pick ... I'd go for the Zeiss 7x42 FL myself though I've never tried them and don't have that money!).

Steve C said:

I am actually quite curious about just what makes that Promaster tick. Is it some sort of design tweak or is it an vastly more economical manufacturing process? Or is Promaster using it as a lost leader to position itself for a planned $8-900 glass that will take a serious shot at the alpha's?

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My bet is Promaster doesn't know what it's done.

From everything else they sell they seem to be a OEM marketing house: aggregating products from a lot of different makers. I suspect they don't do a lot of design either (but the comment about Doug and the design of a tripod is interesting). I suspect the Chinese optical OEMs are getting smarter and perhaps offering more services or co-designs with different companies. But I suspect that most of this work is going on in a Chinese office based on product specs from the marketing department.

I'd love to be told different but I suspect not.

SteveC said:

The Swift Eaglet Series is positioned just about with the Vortex Viper class. Hard to see a real practical difference, except Vortex doesn't have a good Viper class compact. They didn't have the Fury out when I bought the Swift. Maybe that's where a not quite premium, but darned close for less than $500 category should be added.

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I wondered about that too.

One could of course take a marketing approach to this then you'd divide this list into two columns: price/quality and aperture (small and big). The Eaglet would then be in the top end of the smaller column with the ELX in the top end of the bigger column.

I'll leave filling the bottom end and middle of the bigger aperture to the reader as I obviously have a bias to the smaller. (Nikon EX ATB 8x40 and Monarch? Or Diamondback 8x42 (on discount) and ... ?

But I think (like Apple's product placement) simplicity is best: Yosemite then ELX then Euro3.

FYI, the Promaster page at CameraLandNY

http://www.cameralandny.com/optics/promaster.pl?page=promasteroptics

I have no association with these guys but it's nice to see all the products in one place.

Kevin,

Here is a cut and paste from another forum. First my question to Doug at Cameraland NY, and his response

Question:
.... next question is, are they a design of a Chinese company that Promaster bought off of the shelf, or are they a Promaster design? Or somebody else's design? For example, I know that most of the Vortex designs they do themselves and they build the prototypes in Wisconsin and the actual production is contracted out (or at least from Fury quality up), .... Just wondering if the same applied here.

Response:
I spoke to the powers that be at Promaster and asked your questions and the reply was:
"They are unique to Promaster. We designed our own optics featuring repellamax and transbright coatings. The body was designed and tooled to our specs"

I pass this on for what it is worth. I suppose it may come down to how "designed" is defined.

Well, I see you were there already so this is not news to you.

Arthur,
I do not even know what to say to that post except it sounds like you are in good physical shape and somebody owes you a great deal of money.

I was talking to Doug today and he said the place is really loaded up with inventory right now (in both a good and a bad way). You are the only person that has been there that I know of. I take it, even after the remodeling, that it is fairly small but well stocked?

FWIW, optically the FL offers a superior image and better specs on paper. I don't really think the ELX and the FL compare in that sense. The image qualities are very, very similar though. The centerfield has that extremely clean sharp quality in both models. The level of edge distortion is about the same and color representation is fairly neutral in both.

Having said all that it really is a surprise that they are selling at the $500 price point. It is going to be the binocular I recommend first under $1000. It isn't an FL but in my opinion it has some superior optical qualities in comparison to some of the other $1000 plus roof prism glasses out there.

Are you trying to tempt me

How is the distortion in the ELX EDs?

How is panning?

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Hee-hee, no, I was not trying to tempt you though I do find myself really enjoying the DX and the ELX not only for their optical qualities but also because of their performance for their respective prices. If you are eventually looking to move up the optical performance ladder then I think the ELX would be a logical next stop. It may be your last stop if you have a chance to compare to some of the high end glass.

To answer your other question, the distortion level is somewhat unique. There is no field curvature. The image is flat (field flattener maybe?) but there is that same astigmatism in the outer 1/3rd of the image that the FL displays. The center 1/3rd is exceptionally sharp with an every so slight degradation of the image in the middle 1/3rd. Without really eyeing it repeatedly and in certain situations I would be willing to bet that most folks would say that the center 2/3rds is sharp and that only after getting to the outer 1/3rd do you notice a difference.

I don't get any "effect" at all when panning. I have heard mention that folks get the "rolling ball" effect with field flattened binoculars. I just don't see it.

I would really like the chance to do a head to head with the ELX and a Razor and a Meostar, but untill I do, I defer to Frank D's judgement. He's had his mitts on more different glass than I. If he comes out in the open and tells us he's selling EL and FL and buying ELX, that says something.

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I haven't had a Razor in my hands in some time but I would like to compare it to the ELX. The Meostar is a bit of a different animal. I know it isn't as sharp anywhere in the field of view as the ELX but the image is probably brighter and it does have a larger "sweet spot". The Meopta's image sort of "assaults your eyes" in a good way ofcourse. The large true and apparent field of view coupled with the flat field, brightness and slightly warm color representation make it a superb optical instrument.

I am in the process of selling both ELs and the SLC. The larger EL and the SLC are up on Ebay now. The smaller EL is being sold to a nice gentleman from this forum.

...I also have a Cabelas Alpha Extreme 8x42 (probably my hunting bin for this archery season) along with a Audubon 8x40 porro coming in the mail shortly.

Oh, and I almost forgot, Doug posted a refurb 8x32 Nikon SE this morning. At $350 I could not resist.

I have a problem. I know it. I just can't stop.

FrankD said:

Arthur,

Oh, and I almost forgot, Doug posted a refurb 8x32 Nikon SE this morning. At $350 I could not resist.

I have a problem. I know it. I just can't stop.

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Frank,

I suspect the SE's might be the best of the bunch, topping even the ED glass bins you're holding onto. I know I've basically given up looking for Nikon 8x30 IIs, so the SEs are quite tempting. Trouble is I really need to flip several bins that don't get sufficient usage these days first.

Hmm. And I just needed one more for now, the 8x42. Even a Viper would do.

By the way, the Promaster Infinity Elite 8x25 is a bit narrow fov. Would not be my favorite, the Excursion 8x28 is more what I needed.

For those curious what I said on 24campfire (too many forums )

KevinPurcell said:

gr8fuldoug said: I spoke to the powers that be at Promaster and asked your questions and the reply was: "They are unique to Promaster. We designed our own optics featuring repellamax and transbright coatings. The body was designed and tooled to our specs"

and I responded

Not too sure how to read that.

Did they pick from a "Chinese menu" at the OEM or did they actually do the optical design in the US? Note I don't think the former is worse than the latter (I've worked with lot of smart Chinese engineers!).

The second sentence is more clearly the body was designed and production engineered by the OEM (as I'd expect) based on their spec ("Make it open bridge like a Swaro" ... that's a spec ).

Yes, those were Rhetorical Questions.

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Regarding SteveC questions of why are they doing something this good I think it's two things: better manufacturing, better Chinese design and better Chinese business models.

I suspect this is designed in China but I also think that the OEMs are perhaps a bit more sophisticated now. They don't just come up with a finish design (or family of designs) and hawk it around the rebadgers. I think they come up with design ideas and know what they can build then they go an talk to rebadgers and give them a list of options, features, perhaps show a prototype and quote them a delivered price for their unique product. Of course the marketers at a place like Promaster would also have their input and deliver a spec back to the Chinese OEMs then they turn it into a product. And as it has IP from both the OEM and the marketing company it's unique to that company. So it's higher value for all concerned.

This is all speculation but I've seen this sort of evolution is software and in electronic hardware. Pretty much all of your laptops are done this way: with the company design input varying from a lot (Apple) to a little (white box ASUS with your label on it. But the production engineering is down to the OEM with acceptance oversight from the sponsor.

I suspect this is just another step in the evolution of Chinese optics. They've already hit the price floor I think for cheap optics. So the next thing to do is move up the value chain and design more sophisticated products.

How long until there is a respected Chinese sport optics brand? Sort of like Lenovo for laptops. It's only a matter of time. Perhaps in the next decade. Of course, it might be the name we know now too (I'd bet on Swift).

FrankD said:

I don't get any "effect" at all when panning. I have heard mention that folks get the "rolling ball" effect with field flattened binoculars. I just don't see it.

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Do you see it on the Celestron DX Ultima? I do on mine.

FrankD said:

Oh, and I almost forgot, Doug posted a refurb 8x32 Nikon SE this morning. At $350 I could not resist.

I have a problem. I know it. I just can't stop.

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I resemble that remark. And yes I'm sure there was a line waiting to jump on that bin!

Frank,

I suspect the SE's might be the best of the bunch, topping even the ED glass bins you're holding onto. I know I've basically given up looking for Nikon 8x30 IIs, so the SEs are quite tempting. Trouble is I really need to flip several bins that don't get sufficient usage these days first.

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Yes, they probably will. I am guessing the FLs and the Nikons will be the two bins that I prefer over the ELX from an optical standpoint but, again, we are talking about $500 roof prism glasses here made in China (previous comments considered). Did anyone ever think a relative unknown binocular brand would get mentioned in the same discussion with the FL, SE and EL from an optical standpoint?

Do you see it on the Celestron DX Ultima? I do on mine.

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I notice the field curvature in the DXs. That is prominent when panning. There is no such effect in the ELXs. Again, they resemble the FLs with their "edge effect".....flat with astigmatism.