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Flycatcher ,Northern Greece (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter ody
- Start date
Valéry Schollaert
Respect animals, don't eat or wear their body or s
In Greece, I guess the default species is Semi-collared Flycatcher, and with such an amount of white in the tail, it seems to be one indeed.
Those 3 species are tough and hybrids exist, I hope to read soon a confirmation from a specialist of those Fidecula.
Those 3 species are tough and hybrids exist, I hope to read soon a confirmation from a specialist of those Fidecula.
lou salomon
the birdonist
No specialist but semi-collared should have a greater coverts bar. I'd tendentially call this a collared fly.
Grahame Walbridge
Well-known member
Another vote for Collared.
Grahame
Grahame
Valéry Schollaert
Respect animals, don't eat or wear their body or s
Ok for the wing pattern, but what about the tail ?
lou salomon
the birdonist
Yes I meant the median covert bar.
CARERY
Well-known member
First year Collared Flycatcher have a lot of white on the outer rectrices.
http://www.ringersdigiguide.ottenby.se/ficedula-albicollis/autumn/
Valéry Schollaert
Respect animals, don't eat or wear their body or s
ok, so this is 1cy ? Are those black wings normal at this age ? Are they indicating a 1cy male ?
Valéry Schollaert
Respect animals, don't eat or wear their body or s
I really don't know enough that bird. I've got a photo of the first one ever seen in Uganda, a typical male, and have seen some breeding individuals in Europe, but I find identification very hard after breeding and in winter. Thanks for helping.
Tib78
Well-known member
Are there any extra pics of this bird, Ody?
2 questions there:
- Is it universally accepted or definitely established that female-type Semi-collared should always have white tipped median coverts? See for instance this bird photographed by Tom Jenner in Sudan: http://birdingsudan.blogspot.com/2011/09/migrants-today-at-tuti.html?m=1 (scroll down). Problem: is it really a semi-collared? Based on tertials pattern, Tom’s ageing is correct but his ID is seemingly based on tail pattern, which is not that useful in autumn, except when the tail is spread. Tom says Collared is rare in Sudan and while this may well be true I have first hand experience of massive falls of Collared flycatchers in Central African Republic in spring...
- On what ground is it a 1cy? Some experienced ringers who regularly hold Ficedula in their hand may have an opinion on age before going to minutiae but on a picture that doesn’t show the tertials pattern, nor the the greater coverts nor the shape of the rectrices or primary coverts...I think one should be careful to say the least.
Age seems particularly important to determine in this case as if it is a 1cy the extent of the primary patch would strongely point to Collared I believe, but if it is an adult the primary patch looks also just fine for a male Semi-collared (but an answer to my question may solve this part).
2 questions there:
- Is it universally accepted or definitely established that female-type Semi-collared should always have white tipped median coverts? See for instance this bird photographed by Tom Jenner in Sudan: http://birdingsudan.blogspot.com/2011/09/migrants-today-at-tuti.html?m=1 (scroll down). Problem: is it really a semi-collared? Based on tertials pattern, Tom’s ageing is correct but his ID is seemingly based on tail pattern, which is not that useful in autumn, except when the tail is spread. Tom says Collared is rare in Sudan and while this may well be true I have first hand experience of massive falls of Collared flycatchers in Central African Republic in spring...
- On what ground is it a 1cy? Some experienced ringers who regularly hold Ficedula in their hand may have an opinion on age before going to minutiae but on a picture that doesn’t show the tertials pattern, nor the the greater coverts nor the shape of the rectrices or primary coverts...I think one should be careful to say the least.
Age seems particularly important to determine in this case as if it is a 1cy the extent of the primary patch would strongely point to Collared I believe, but if it is an adult the primary patch looks also just fine for a male Semi-collared (but an answer to my question may solve this part).
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Grahame Walbridge
Well-known member
In answer to your 1st question, according to Mild in autumn a significant number of adults lack white tips to the median covs. but no mention of 1st-w's. However, Tom's bird from Sudan is IMO a 1w male Collared based on the amount of white in the primaries and tertials. I am not certain whether the pale nape is real or due to lighting but Semicollared apparently always lacks this feature.
Re age I suspect the OP bird is an adult due to the extensive black outer coverts but I'd like to confirm with e.g tertial pattern which cannot be judged unequivocally from this angle.
Agree with Tib we need more images.
Grahame
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Earnest lad
Well-known member
I'm in the collared camp
CARERY
Well-known member
One thing is for sure, the OP bird is no adult male which would show completely white GC's. I assumed that an adult female would still show signs of moult by mid August as they usually moult later than the males. I may be wrong of course. If I compare the OP with these in-hand photos (esp. the 1cy male) I find them strikingly similar... But of course more photos would be very helpful!
Tib78
Well-known member
Thanks Grahame. You might be right regarding Tom’s bird yet I am still undecided but let’s not get sidetracked...
I would slightly favour an adult for the OP because the primary coverts look very black and not pointed but this is impossible to ascertain based ont this photo.
Any reference or photo to back this up, Rolland?
I don’t know Collared flycatcher very well in autumn, but your claim is at odd with my experience of Pied flycatcher whom adult males in autumn have «female type» greater coverts.
It is extremely difficult to find photos of adult male Collared in autumn on the web, the only example I have found however seemingly confirm your claim however. And it was photographed...on Shetlands(!): https://www.birdguides.com/articles/rarity-finders-collared-flycatcher-on-shetland
I know one of the poster on here (Will Jones?) has first hand experience of ringing Ficedula flycatchers in Sweden so his input would be most welcome. And some further pics for the Swedish ringing program too...
Grahame Walbridge
Well-known member
Roland, I don't know if you have a copy of Shirihai & Svensson (2018) but look at the plate (top/r) on p56 in Vol 2 which depicts an adult male in Sep with considerably reduced white in the gc's, similar to 1st-w. And here is another example, though a little later in the season.https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320237531_First_record_of_Collared_Flycatcher_Ficedula_albicollis_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates
Shirihai & Svensson text for Autumn Ad reads 'Both male/fem appear much as fem in spring, but upper parts browner, less grey, more like Pied; thus, black upper parts, white on forehead, white collar and white in wing (except on primaries) of male moulted to fem-like appearance'
Demongin gives complete Postbreeding moult for Collared 06-07 [-mid Sep] so, presumably the Shetland bird has not completed its moult.
Grahame
Shirihai & Svensson text for Autumn Ad reads 'Both male/fem appear much as fem in spring, but upper parts browner, less grey, more like Pied; thus, black upper parts, white on forehead, white collar and white in wing (except on primaries) of male moulted to fem-like appearance'
Demongin gives complete Postbreeding moult for Collared 06-07 [-mid Sep] so, presumably the Shetland bird has not completed its moult.
Grahame
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Valéry Schollaert
Respect animals, don't eat or wear their body or s
That UAE bird is showing much less white in tail than OP bird. This is the point that led me to Semi-collared F.
CARERY
Well-known member
Grahame, no I don't have a copy but surely soon will have... So, obviously I was too hasty in stating a feature (teaches me once more to be more carefully). Moreover I found another example for an assumed adult male which doesn't show white GC's : https://i2.wp.com/birdingfrontiers.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/BLUE-ROBIN-Withalsvliegenvanger-Katwijk-101010-Arnold-Meijer-287C1611.jpg
But as you stressed the extent white primary patch should be valid as feature to ID an adult male even after post breeding moult. The OP doesn't show a very extent patch there, does it? So I still tend to think it is no adult male, even if for a different reason. Additionally I wonder if the fringes of the GC's in adults are white rather than buffish as in 1cy? I'm clearly lacking experience here. What does Svensson write in "Identification Guide to European Passerines"? I don't have it at hand...
