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Are our fellow European birders better than UK birders. (1 Viewer)

rokermartin

Well-known member
Over the many years i have been birding i have been amazed how exceptional the fieldcraft is of many of our fellow european birders in bird song and identifcation and knowledge they have about birds.I have been on many bird holidays in europe and the foreign leaders i have met and birded with are far better than many of the UK birders who i have met and birded with and even better than many of top UK expert birders. The ordinary european birders who i have meet have had great and knowledge excellent id skills also.In my view quite a lot of UK birders are lagging behind in id and field craft compared to european birders.
 
Hi Rokermartin,
You are doing a grave disservice to some of your fellow countrymen: many seminal identification papers were written by British birders, often appearing in British Birds.
That said, the Scandinavians are indeed well known for their skill, as are the Dutch, and, while we may not have many birders in Ireland, we've certainly produced a few good ID men as well. I would argue, however, that it is within any one birder's capability to increase their proficiency with calls, obscure field marks etc, even if this doesn't quite raise them to 'expert' level: certainly feel a lot more 'confident' (most of the time) with calls now than I did only 5-6 years ago, for example.
Regards,
Harry
 
The trouble about modern birding it is made to easy these days with all the birdlines pagers etc.Some birders who are starting out now and they are seeing rarities before they can id the common birds like Chiffchaff and Willow Warbler.They are not getting to know the common birds first and how to id them.And they are not developing their knowledge,fieldcraft and id skills.Instead they are chasing round after rarities.
 
Hi Roker,
Well, I've done more than my fair share of twitching, and, if anyone ever finds a bird that I 'need' again, I may do some more, but, I must admit, I did spend a few years at the beginning not knowing any other birders, not knowing of the existence of a birdline etc, and was just making sense of the commoner species. Even now, however, I still constantly try to refine my knowledge of even the commonest birds: in many/most groups, after all, a strong grasp of the commoner species is a prerequisite for finding their rarer relatives, and knowledge of the common species is worthwhile for its own sake as well.
Regards,
Harry
 
I think that the birding community in the UK has a very different 'profile' from that of other western European nations.

In the UK, a much larger percentage of the population would probably claim to be 'interested' in birdwatching than in any other European nation, perhaps largely thanks to the long standing efforts of organisations such as RSPB and BTO, and the fact that most birding literature is published in English. Huge numbers of people enjoy feeding garden birds, and many read the popular birding magazines, regularly visit reserves, and take holidays to 'easy' birding destinations (Lesvos, Florida etc.).

But I would suggest that the birding communities in other west European nations, although much smaller percentages of the overall populations, nevertheless typically have a higher proportion of more committed and proactive field birders.

By way of example, the UK has an incredible number (25+?) of very successful bird tour companies, reflecting the huge domestic market for birders who want to travel for birds but are typically uncomfortable about independent travel (particularly outside the western world) and/or do not feel competent to find the birds for themselves.

In contrast, a brief perusal of recently published trip reports (e.g http://www.travellingbirder.com)
for the more 'leading edge' birding destinations will reveal that, taking relative numbers into account, a far greater pioneering spirit thrives among our western European neighbours. Perhaps it is partly a reflection of the insular and conservative British character.

On numerous independent trips (and a few organised tours), I have met many Dutch, Scandinavian and other European birders, and have invariably been impressed by their level of knowledge and skill compared with the 'average' Brit abroad.

Richard
 
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The better birders in Europe will be fluent in English birdnames, which will give a somewhat skewed impression.

There are plenty of Dutch people who watch birds who are completely clueless. They are easy to find at what are the known "hotspots" in the Netherlands, like the Oostvaardersplassen, which I tend(ed) to avoid. The somewhat lower percentage of people actually carrying gear may hide the fact that there are still so many people who know little.
Some examples: A Dutch guy who came to photograph the Pygmy Owl even had to ask if it was a rare bird... And a friend of mine (who admitted not to be a great birder) who regularly went on bird trips with a Dutch company told me one of the people in his group had never seen a telescope before, and didn't know what it was! And what some of the vismiggers report is far beyond belief...
Finally: birdguides are supposed to know their stuff – with 250 regular species, knowing their songs and calls isn't too much to ask!
 
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Met a few Finnish birders over the years and all of them had exceptional fieldcraft.One in particular had excellent eye sight could id birds quite far away without using binoculars or telescope and his hearing was amazing he picked out a RF Bluetail singing on a hillside very far away.And when i was in Hungary our local leader he saw a dot in the sky a good away off .And said it was a Imperial Eagle and sure enough it got closer and it was .
 
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I think it could be to do with the fact that birding in Britain is very different to on the continent. I used to go to the nature reserves, sit in a hide and enjoy the birds being very close and being in complete comfort. Now I live in France, there is nothing comparable nearby, all birding is in the field, in the strictest sense of the term. To get close to the birds requires fieldcraft, and because the birds are generally more distant, things like behaviour and calls - the things that you can't learn from field guides, become more important than ever before.
 
Comparisons are probably hard to quantify and I agree with many of the points above. There are by far more 'general public' birders in UK, as Richard pointed out. However, amongst that population are serious, competent field birders who know their stuff. For all the reasons Rokermartin points out in both posts, increasing popularity has brought with it a 'new generation' of 'modern' birders (young and old) where fieldcraft and ID skills trails far behind the list lengths and as Roker says, who seem to spend time running around looking for quantity of species and rarity rather than putting in the years to getting a good foundation in basic field craft first. I've been out with birders who can't even distinguish between an accipter or falcon species in flight, yet will happily twitch a rare duck that someone else has found for them. Guess it doesn't matter really... s'wat you think makes a ''good'' birder at the end of the day.

The paucity of 'committed' birders on the continent may give the impression there's better birders in mainland Europe than in the UK. Not sure this is a ''rule'' though and some may be just ''setting'' up business simply because there is a market for visiting birders. One particular ''very experienced'' European birder I went birding with on the continent, routinely mistook Common Buzzard in the air for rarer species, mis'ID'd a perched Common Buzzard for a RL , spent over an hour trying to convince me a Little Stint was a Temmincks which I couldn't see for the life of me through the scope, then finally admitted it wasn't and misID'd a group of LRP's for Ringed Plover. I wouldn't have minded about the Stint but we spent over an hour looking at a small LS flock when we could have moved to a better area for birds by which time it was too late. They failed to find all but two of the target species out of a list nearly 10 that had been ''very very likely''. They had no mobile contacts for other birders in the local area to get update of what was around (he'd been away for several weeks). And this was someone who I was paying over £500 for 2 and half days birding. First and last time I will ever pay a European guide who professes to be an ''expert'' who wants ''expert'' fees for doing what i could have done myself. It put me off for life. I'd rather find my own target birds (and ended up doing so on the rest of this trip) or risk dipping them all together than pay for the c*ap I ended up with. (I believe LGRE had a similar experience with him re: fieldcraft/MisID's I found out later)
 
Comparisons are probably hard to quantify and I agree with many of the points above. There are by far more 'general public' birders in UK, as Richard pointed out. However, amongst that population are serious, competent field birders who know their stuff. For all the reasons Rokermartin points out in both posts, increasing popularity has brought with it a 'new generation' of 'modern' birders (young and old) where fieldcraft and ID skills trails far behind the list lengths and as Roker says, who seem to spend time running around looking for quantity of species and rarity rather than putting in the years to getting a good foundation in basic field craft first. I've been out with birders who can't even distinguish between an accipter or falcon species in flight, yet will happily twitch a rare duck that someone else has found for them. Guess it doesn't matter really... s'wat you think makes a ''good'' birder at the end of the day.

The paucity of 'committed' birders on the continent may give the impression there's better birders in mainland Europe than in the UK. Not sure this is a ''rule'' though and some may be just ''setting'' up business simply because there is a market for visiting birders. One particular ''very experienced'' European birder I went birding with on the continent, routinely mistook Common Buzzard in the air for rarer species, mis'ID'd a perched Common Buzzard for a RL , spent over an hour trying to convince me a Little Stint was a Temmincks which I couldn't see for the life of me through the scope, then finally admitted it wasn't and misID'd a group of LRP's for Ringed Plover. I wouldn't have minded about the Stint but we spent over an hour looking at a small LS flock when we could have moved to a better area for birds by which time it was too late. They failed to find all but two of the target species out of a list nearly 10 that had been ''very very likely''. They had no mobile contacts for other birders in the local area to get update of what was around (he'd been away for several weeks). And this was someone who I was paying over £500 for 2 and half days birding. First and last time I will ever pay a European guide who professes to be an ''expert'' who wants ''expert'' fees for doing what i could have done myself. It put me off for life. I'd rather find my own target birds (and ended up doing so on the rest of this trip) or risk dipping them all together than pay for the c*ap I ended up with. (I believe LGRE had a similar experience with him re: fieldcraft/MisID's I found out later)
Seems as if you had a bad time with one leader.Have to say all the leaders i have been with have been exceptional apart from one when i did a holiday to Cyprus.We had two leaders on the holiday who were brothers and both local birders the first brother who lead the group for the first five days he was excellent and the last few days of the holiday we had his brother who was no where as good at his id and fieldcraft.He mis ID'd several birds myself and another birder took over at finding and pointing the birds out.But on the whole we saw all the birds that we wanted to see.I really think birders who are starting out should really get to now the common birds and develope there skills and fieldcraft before they start chasing round after rarites.You have to know how to id all the common birds first and get to know the their songs and calls and behavier.That is how the older generation of birders started out there birdwatching .Birding has become far to easy these days
 
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I started taking an interest in birds in the early 1980s but didn't feel confident to list them until 1987, by which time I knew the more common species. Consequently, when I found my 1st rarity (Tawny Pipit, Fairburn Ings 1989, accepted by the YNU) I KNEW it was a rare bird, but also knew which family to look at for ID confirmation and how to take field notes. 1989 was also the year of my 1st twitch - Golden-winged Warbler.

I've met some good birders overseas, especially a Spanish birder I met in Menorca last year who guided me around Algendar Gorge and whose knowledge of bird ID was excellent - and some not-so-good. However, without learning fieldcraft and the more common British birds first there is no way I could have IDed some of the birds I've seen in Asia and the US. I too believe that the message is that all birders from all countries should hone their skills on the birds common to them - preferably before they go become addicted twitchers!!
 
Hi Rokermartin,
You are doing a grave disservice to some of your fellow countrymen: many seminal identification papers were written by British birders, often appearing in British Birds.
That said, the Scandinavians are indeed well known for their skill, as are the Dutch, and, while we may not have many birders in Ireland, we've certainly produced a few good ID men as well. I would argue, however, that it is within any one birder's capability to increase their proficiency with calls, obscure field marks etc, even if this doesn't quite raise them to 'expert' level: certainly feel a lot more 'confident' (most of the time) with calls now than I did only 5-6 years ago, for example.
Regards,
Harry
Hi Harry
i think the most famous Irish birder you have in Ireland is Killain Mullarney he is a exceptional birder.I would say the 20 top birders in europe will be mostly foreign and with a few UK birders.Dick Formans the Fin who is the number one expert on raptor id will certainly be in the top 3.
 
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Met a few Finnish birders ...his hearing was amazing he picked out a RF Bluetail singing on a hillside very far away.And when i was in Hungary our local leader he saw a dot in the sky a good away off .And said it was a Imperial Eagle and sure enough it got closer and it was .


Big deal, I would hope they know their local specialities without too much problem - I'd wager that if either of them sat beside a British seawatcher they would be equally amazed by the distant dots being identified, and that the British seawatcher would be equally impressed by his Polish counterpart picking out River Warbler whilst buzzing along in a car, etc etc.

I've birded in excess of 100 countries to date, and wherever you go, you'll eventually bump into British, Dutch and to a lesser extent various other European birders - plenty of good birders amongst them all.
 
Big deal, I would hope they know their local specialities without too much problem - I'd wager that if either of them sat beside a British seawatcher they would be equally amazed by the distant dots being identified, and that the British seawatcher would be equally impressed by his Polish counterpart picking out River Warbler whilst buzzing along in a car, etc etc.

I've birded in excess of 100 countries to date, and wherever you go, you'll eventually bump into British, Dutch and to a lesser extent various other European birders - plenty of good birders amongst them all.
Hello yes agree with you on seawatching i think here in the UK we will have most of the best seawatchers.Because the Uk has some of the best seawatching in europe.Sweds and the Finns get huge numbers divers ,ducks geese,Swans on there seawatchers very few shearwaters ,petrels etc.But i still think most foreign birders have better knowledge and fieldcraft than most birders in the UK.Another reason why i think they have better fieldcraft ,skill and knowledge about birds because very few european birders go twitching.So they get to know the common birds first.Not like birders who are just starting birding in the uk who go round chasing for rarities before they can id all the common birds.You have one of the top birders in europe in Lithuanian ,Algirdas Knystautas i have been birding with him and he was excellent he certainly knew his bird calls and id.
 
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But i still think most foreign birders have better knowledge and fieldcraft than most birders in the UK.


Care to name the authors of generally accepted best fieldguides to Mexico, and central America (Steve Howell), India, Nepal, etc (Inskipp), East Africa (Terry Stevenson), South Africa, Indian Ocean Islands (Ian Sinclair) etc, etc? All British, probably not bad birders.
 
You have one of the top birders in europe in Lithuanian ,Algirdas Knystautas i have been birding with him and he was excellent he certainly knew his bird calls and id.

And the entire rest of the country has a fraction of the experience of the average British birder. Whilst there are a small number of quite good birders, and a growing number of enthusiastic birders getting better, this country will not win your argument - on a good weekend, there might be a total of perhaps ten active birders working the entire country, less if you knock off ex-pats living here :-O
 
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It´s probably fairly obvious to say that if you get enough time in and are reasonably observant, you will become "expert" at commoner birds in your region pretty quickly. Does that imply, therefore, that people who bird regularly in regions with greater numbers of species, become "better" birders, faster? As far as I can tell, in Ireland it´s a pretty big deal to have seen and identified 300 species, but this isn´t much of an achievment in the UK, and even less so in Continental Europe. So a "good" Irish birder travelling to, say, Spain, would be pretty average, whereas a "good" Spanish birder travelling to Ireland would be pretty hot. I learned my "fieldcraft", paltry as it is, in the seventies, and didn´t realise that apart form me, 2 mates and a few eccentrics in the IWC, there were any other birders on the planet (except on telly). I came back to birding in the internet age, and am astounded at the wealth of information people have at their fingertips, including information about what´s to be seen, where, instantly. I´d love to have the time to improve my own fieldcraft, but not in order to compete with anyone. I´m astounded by how competitive it has become. I don´t care how "good" or "poor" a person´s birding skills are....if they´re enjoying themselves. If I wanted to compete, I´d join a chess club.;)
 
And the entire rest of the country has a fraction of the experience of the average British birder. Whilst there are a small number of quite good birders, and a growing number of enthusiastic birders getting better, this country will not win your argument - on a good weekend, there might be a total of perhaps ten active birders working the entire country, less if you knock off ex-pats living here :-O
Most of the top european birders i would say are Dutch,Scandnaivian,Finnish i have meet some excellent Spanish,Bulgarian,Hungarian,French birders also some excellent Russia birders.The Oliver T Warbler which was found on Shetland was id by Killian Mullarney and Hadoram Shirihai ,Shetland birders sent pics of the bird.If you include Israel in Europe there are some excellent Israeli birders
 
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