Mr. Ogle's Snowy-throated Babbler (1 Viewer)

Björn Bergenholtz · Sep 25, 2017

Anyone know the First names of Mr. Ogle, Deputy Superintendent of the India Survey Department, a British surveyor (together with Colonel Woodthorpe, of the Topographical Survey), who collected the Type specimen in "the neighbourhood of Saddaya, Assam, India"?

He is commemorated in the eponym ...

oglei as in:
• Snowy-throated Babbler Stachyris oglei GODWIN-AUSTEN 1877 (here) as "Actinura Oglei" a k a Austen's Spotted Tree Babbler

Hab. — Shot on Manbiim Tila, on the Tenga Pani river, near Saddya, at 800 ft. (M. J. Ogle).

This is another new form for which we have to thank Mr. Ogle, after whom I have much pleasure in naming it.

Same initials used in several places. The type was collected 24 January 1877 (here), by "M. J. Ogle".

However note the initials: "M. T. Ogle", (1921, here, p. 101, also see p.213, regarding the Landshell "Alycæus oglei", bouncing back to 1914, here, same initials).

But both today's HBW Alive Key and the Eponym Dictionary of Birds (2014) says: "M. G. Ogle (1842-1892)" ... ?

And here, and here, he is (if it´s the same guy!): "Mr. M. T. Ogle"!?

In the General Report on the Topographical and Revenue Surveys of the Bengal Presindency for the Season 1863-64 (p.13, also mentioned on p.16) he´s (assuming it´s the same guy) simply: "Mr. M. Ogle). And in the 1875-1876 Report (Survey Operations in the Naga Hills), he´s only "Mr. Ogle".

Also see here: "To Mr. Ogle the Gill Memorial Medal for 1889 was awarded by the Council of the Royal Geographical Society in recognition of his excellent survey work in the North-eastern frontier and in Burma". Again he´s "Mr. M. J. Ogle" ... ? He apparently also took part of the Burma-Manipur Frontier Survey.

Anyone know who this guy (or guys?) truly was?

Björn

PS. And here ... !?
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Björn Bergenholtz · Sep 25, 2017

Obituary: M. J. Ogle. Proceedings of the Royal Geographical Society and Monthly Record of Geography Vol. 14, No. 5 (May, 1892), pp. 335-336. (Attached)

mb1848 · Sep 25, 2017

Lieutenant R. G. Woodthorpe, R.E., and Mr. M. J. Ogle.

Björn Bergenholtz · Sep 25, 2017

And here ... it´s suddenly: "Mr. M. A. Ogle" ... who "died in London on the 4th April, 1892, at the age of 50". :eek!:

Sigh! That´s far too many contradictory bids for my taste, in my MS (if nothing else turns up, of course) he will simply be called "Mr. Ogle", nothing more.

mb1848 · Sep 26, 2017

Thanks Björn for asking all theses questions!
Major-General Robert Gosset Woodthorpe, CB, RE (Purfleet 1848 - 1898)
RE is Royal Engineers.

l_raty · Sep 26, 2017

Calalp said:
Sigh! That´s far too many contradictory bids for my taste, in my MS (if nothing else turns up, of course) he will simply be called "Mr. Ogle", nothing more.

Can't all the initials that depart from "M. J." actually be sourced to Godwin-Austen's works...? (This suggests this author had a quite hard-to-read handwriting, and was not very prone to proofreading.)
For example, in the Lists of Officers in the Survey of India (i.e., more or less official administrative documents), he is always "M. J." In [this one] (July 1891), a full Statement of Services can be found on pp.98-101.

Taphrospilus · Sep 26, 2017

Thought about John William Ogle (1824–1905) but from the dates not possible.

Here in the footnote:

Specimens of these interesting documents have been published in the well-known editions by Mr. A. Ogle (1892)

I have no clue about what publication we talk.

l_raty · Sep 26, 2017

Taphrospilus said:
I Have no clue about what publication we talk.

Looks like it is [this].

Björn Bergenholtz · Sep 26, 2017

Thanks guys for keeping up the steam in trying to solve this one.

l_raty said:
...(This suggests this author had a quite hard-to-read handwriting, and was not very prone to proofreading.) ...

Laurent, that would certainly be some kind of wild handwriting! Making whatever letter into; J, G, T and A! Hard to imagine, even for an illustrator/writer like myself.

Sure makes one curious to see the original scribbles by Godwin-Austen. Or the ones by Woodthorpe.

However; I agree, "M. J. Ogle" (as in the OD, by Godwin-Austen) seems to be the far most common version (and certainly so in various official documents), but with no understanding of what those initials stands for, this far, I will keep him simply as "Mr. Ogle", surveyor ... and so on. Better safe than sorry.

Sure makes one wonder why the Key prefer the "M. G."-version ... !?

Keep digging!

Björn

PS. His entry (on pp.98-100) in the 1891 List of Officers in the Survey of India Department (corrected to 1st July 1891) attached, (which is the very last, of those, where we can find him). Fits most texts discussed this far.

Björn Bergenholtz · Sep 27, 2017

Conclusion ...

Today's updated HBW Alive Key:

oglei
Deputy Superintendent M. J. Ogle (1842-1892) British military surveyor in India, Burma and Afghanistan (Stachyris).

For what it´s worth; in the 1865 General Report on the Topographical Survey Operations of Bengal Presidency for Season 1863-64 (with the report of his very first Survey) he is only "M. Ogle". Although in Clements Robert Markham's Memoir on the Indian Surveys (second Edition 1878) he´s once again: "M. J. Ogle", here.

Also note the English Common name "Ogle's Laughing-Thrush" (here and here) for "Dryonastes nuchalis" as well described by Godwin-Austen, in 1876, the year before the Babbler (here) as "Garrulax nuchalis" [i.e. today's Chestnut-backed Laughingthrush Garrulax nuchalis]:

This beautiful species was among a batch of birds lately received from and collected by Mr. M. T. Ogle of the Topographical Survey, in ...

Sigh!

In my MS (if not re-written, and left out all together) "Mr. Ogle" maybe would, could be; Mr. "M. Ogle" ... well, that´s it, I´m stuck! End of the road.

Mr. Ogle ... over and out!

Björn

PS. He´s certainly not; Mr. C. S. Ogle (i.e. Charles Stanton Ogle, 1865-1940), the first (silent film) actor to portray Frankestein's Monster in 1910.

(Now I´ve apparently been Googling much too long!)
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Björn Bergenholtz · Oct 1, 2017

One final remark regarding Mr. Ogle (who most likely is/was "Mr. M. J. Ogle"). As we´ve only found out that he died in 1892, 4th of April, "at the age of 50" makes it a bit uncertain if he truly was born in 1842 (as is now believed) ...

However I´ve had no luck finding neither a birth date nor a birth place.

That´s it. If anyone´s still keen on finding him: Good luck!

Taphrospilus · May 8, 2021

The Eponym Dictionary of Birds claims:

Ogle's Laughingthrush Garrulax nuchalis Godwin-Austen, 1876 [Alt. Chestnut-backed Laughingthrush]
Ogle's Spotted Babbler Stachyris oglei Godwin-Austen, 1877 [Alt. Snowy-throated Babbler, Austen's Spotted Babbler]
Mr J. Ogle (1842-1892) was a British surveyor in Assam, India. He collected natural history specimens whilst working for the Topographical Survey, and sent the birds to Godwin-Austin.

I am always suprised if we have life dates but not the full name

PScofield · May 8, 2021

Matthew John Ogle

Birth

4 Mar 1842
Baptism	10 Apr 1842 Calcutta, Bengal, India

Death

15 Jul 1892 Marylebone, Middlesex, England

Father	Mathew Ogle (1821-1857)

Mother	Caroline Boezalt (1817-1846)

Mr. Ogle's Snowy-throated Babbler (1 Viewer)

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