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More alarmism 'Ecological grief':Greenland residents traumatised by climate emergency

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Old Thursday 15th August 2019, 19:10   #26
Chosun Juan
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Chosun, I am no expert on the Aborigines but is the inference that they have been around on earth longer than most others? Seems to me that they simply remained "primitive" and that they did not change and advance their skills and knowledge like most of the northern races.

Could it be that they lived how they did because they had not the "drive" to move forward.

Den
Den, I am not greatly schooled in the western sciences in that area. I believe there is quite some debate over the origins of man and much is still to be revealed. I don't know if you have seen this post in the Dark Emu thread - but the link there puts forward the position that rather than being out of Africa, the evolution pathway is out of Australia. https://www.birdforum.net/showthread...20#post3881820

As I mentioned above, elders consistently mention being here forever.

It is through a very western/modernist lens that the notion of "primitive" arises. As are the terms "advancing skills and knowledge". Much of the story of Aborigines has been told through the distorted lens of colonialism (which apart from the inadequate lens they were viewing it through, was also deliberately twisted to suit their agenda).

The sophistication of Aboriginals is not widely known (other than in the cultural performances aspect). Sophisticated spiritually, sophisticated laws and governance, and sophisticated in sustainable harmony.

I would ask who is the more "primitive" - those who would destroy the earth as the modern world has ? Or those labeled as such by those very same destructors ?

I think you are right in a round about way and by referring to "drive" that you are getting to the gist of it. However, this has to be understood in the context of the Aboriginal peoples living 'in' enlightenment (the dreaming /'light' - as might be understood in Buddhist terms to give relational context) , and also that the law /governance system, and harmony /sustainability largely resulted in peace among the many Aboriginal 'nations'. An egalitarian civilization of collaboration instead of competition. Contrast this to 'Guns, Germs, and Steel'.

I find it fascinating to see original pictures of Aborigines upon first contact - to a man, woman, and child they are healthy and fit - looking like Olympian athletes. There were no 400lb (as we see modern obese people) aborigines needing to be carted out of their dwellings. Such dis-'ease' can only come from a spiritual disconnect, as well as changed lifestyle/diet. Something to ponder .......



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Old Thursday 15th August 2019, 19:21   #27
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A (very rough) analogy—

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/09/s...core-ios-share
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Old Friday 16th August 2019, 03:07   #28
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So let me put this straight: you start a thread with a post which is in itself formulated in a know-it-all, condescending fashion and then feel somehow offended when people don't respond with kindness and willingness to engage in fair discussion? Are you genuinely that impervious to irony, or is this just your communication strategy?
... as in the collection of individuals and specimen that happens to be alive in this unfortunate time and we are clearly and undoubtedly ******* up things for them, on timescales of decades, so why not try to do something about it?
Oy. Blah, blah blah. Where's the substantiated science? Nothing of value here about Greenland
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...
The thread and position is nonsense of course, but such is the case with any climate change denial.

And the idea that climate change is cyclical is valid, but dig into the science regarding rates of change, etc. It's really not hard to find good science about it.
Meh. Really? Prove it. YOU dig into the science. This whole Greenland thing is a massive inconvenience for the AGW religious faithful.
At least Joost made an attempt here.
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Old Friday 16th August 2019, 03:09   #29
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Good work, Joost. Except (perhaps) for a perfunctory “don't-have-time-at-the-moment-but will-read-them-when I do”, a 3-gun salvo like that should scare off our rancher friend for a good long time.
Ha! Comedy gold coming from you! You've admitted as much several times. You refuse to read anything presented as anti-AGW.


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Old Friday 16th August 2019, 06:21   #30
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Ha! Comedy gold coming from you! You've admitted as much several times. You refuse to read anything presented as anti-AGW.
Well, yeah, but that’s just me. . ..

I’ll be very interested, by the way, in reading your critique of the 3 articles Joost posted the links for earlier in the thread. He did so mainly for your benefit, you know. You’ll find them very hard going, I’m sure, but it would very rude of you not to give us at least some feedback after all the trouble he went to on your behalf.
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Old Friday 16th August 2019, 06:23   #31
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Oy. Blah, blah blah. Where's the substantiated science? Nothing of value here about Greenland

Meh. Really? Prove it. YOU dig into the science. This whole Greenland thing is a massive inconvenience for the AGW religious faithful.
At least Joost made an attempt here.
Joost!!
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Old Friday 16th August 2019, 08:17   #32
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Well, yeah, but that’s just me. . ..

I’ll be very interested, by the way, in reading your critique of the 3 articles Joost posted the links for earlier in the thread. He did so mainly for your benefit, you know. You’ll find them very hard going, I’m sure, but it would very rude of you not to give us at least some feedback after all the trouble he went to on your behalf.
Litebeam, I am indeed still waiting. You can't demand something, ignore it when it is provided, then criticize others by saying they didn't provide it. I selected these papers because they specifically address your main points about 'unprecedented vs precedented' rates of change and the 'regional vs global' point of view. There is a lot more literature along the same lines, and the good thing is that you can go and check the raw source data yourself (in case you're worried about data doctoring).

A specific criticism on your insistence that those who accepts the settled science are "religious faithfuls": the guy who made that graph you posted at the start of your thread is on record saying that the Bible is a great source for past climate reconstruction and future prediction. Just saying

J

P.S. I also posted an extensive review article on the Greenland ice sheet dynamics and history in the parallel AGW thread. Scroll back to the spat about Judith Curry, Greenland glaciers and sea level rise. It's the one Ed dismissed as irrelevant because it was about...Greenland
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Old Friday 16th August 2019, 08:26   #33
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@Chosun: many thanks for the thoughtful reply and providing a very different perspective from the ones I would normally encounter. We agree on many points and I enjoyed the meme. Back on topic (sort of) it would indeed be interesting to get an Inuit perspective on all this, though I fear it won't be very positive.

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Old Friday 16th August 2019, 15:08   #34
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@Chosun: many thanks for the thoughtful reply and providing a very different perspective from the ones I would normally encounter. We agree on many points and I enjoyed the meme. Back on topic (sort of) it would indeed be interesting to get an Inuit perspective on all this, though I fear it won't be very positive.

J
Joost, it is difficult to convey the Aboriginal perspective /being in the limited terms of western understanding. Perhaps the most useful framework is the 'ancient' Buddhist one of Enlightenment (though scientists probably won't like that ! :) originated some ~2650 years ago. A couple of thousand years ago - that's cute ! :) even that came from Aboriginal mythology /dreaming.

I quite like this explanation in the wiki article as one of the more relatable: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aust..._and_mythology
"It is always integral and common... that the Law (Aboriginal law) is something derived from ancestral peoples or Dreamings and is passed down the generations in a continuous line. While... entitlements of particular human beings may come and go, the underlying relationships between foundational Dreamings and certain landscapes are theoretically eternal ... the entitlements of people to places are usually regarded strongest when those people enjoy a relationship of identity with one or more Dreamings of that place. This is an identity of spirit, a consubstantiality, rather than a matter of mere belief...: the Dreaming pre-exists and persists, while its human incarnations are temporary."[20]

An Aboriginal generalisation:
Aboriginal specialists willing to generalise believe all Aboriginal myths across Australia, in combination, represent a kind of unwritten (oral) library within which Aboriginal peoples learn about the world and perceive a peculiarly Aboriginal 'reality' dictated by concepts and values vastly different from those of western societies:[21]

"Aboriginal people learned from their stories that a society must not be human-centred but rather land centred, otherwise they forget their source and purpose ... humans are prone to exploitative behaviour if not constantly reminded they are interconnected with the rest of creation, that they as individuals are only temporal in time, and past and future generations must be included in their perception of their purpose in life."[22]

"People come and go but the Land, and stories about the Land, stay. This is a wisdom that takes lifetimes of listening, observing and experiencing ... There is a deep understanding of human nature and the environment... sites hold 'feelings' which cannot be described in physical terms... subtle feelings that resonate through the bodies of these people... It is only when talking and being with these people that these 'feelings' can truly be appreciated. This is... the intangible reality of these people..."



They are in a state of enlightenment and perpetually connected to the spirit and place of the land.

I came across this picture on the interwebs which illustrates things quite nicely .... https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...cus_composer=0

Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot_2019-08-17-01-01-05-1.jpg
Views:	13
Size:	52.9 KB
ID:	702321





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Old Friday 16th August 2019, 17:54   #35
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Could it be that they lived how they did because they had not the "drive" to move forward.
Not so sure where we are now is entirely "forward" if we have sacrificed our planet, and possibly our own species, to get there.

One of the sci-fi tropes I enjoy is when a species is shown that has a higher level of technology than humans, yet still lives in harmony with nature.

So imagine if you will a society that valued nature first above all other concerns, who took slower steps and a different technology road, to go forward? What if the internal combustion engine was seen for the polluting thing it is and someone said, "y'know, let's wait until we can make something more efficient, less polluting, or even non-polluting..."

Of course, I always ALSO wonder: did they always revere nature, or did they go through a phase like us, almost screwed everything, and then were forced into an ephiphany and changed course to where they are now?

For want of a backstory on say, the Nox.
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Old Tuesday 20th August 2019, 15:53   #36
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Not so sure where we are now is entirely "forward" if we have sacrificed our planet, and possibly our own species, to get there.

One of the sci-fi tropes I enjoy is when a species is shown that has a higher level of technology than humans, yet still lives in harmony with nature.

So imagine if you will a society that valued nature first above all other concerns, who took slower steps and a different technology road, to go forward? What if the internal combustion engine was seen for the polluting thing it is and someone said, "y'know, let's wait until we can make something more efficient, less polluting, or even non-polluting..."

Of course, I always ALSO wonder: did they always revere nature, or did they go through a phase like us, almost screwed everything, and then were forced into an ephiphany and changed course to where they are now?

For want of a backstory on say, the Nox.
Please tell me that you don't have an automobile?! Horrors! How do you transport yourself from one place to another without assuming the roll of complete hypocrite?
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Old Tuesday 20th August 2019, 16:22   #37
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Good work, Joost. Except (perhaps) for a perfunctory “don't-have-time-at-the-moment-but will-read-them-when I do”, a 3-gun salvo like that should scare off our rancher friend for a good long time.
I read all three, tried too anyway.....you digest this:
"Here, we use seven different statistical methods to reconstruct GMST over the past 2,000 yr (1–2000 ; Table 1). The methods range from basic composite-plus-scaling (CPS) and regression-based techniques (such as principal component regression (PCR) and regularized errors in variables (M08)) frequently used in past reconstructions, to newer linear methods (optimal informa-tion extraction (OIE) and a Bayesian hierarchical model (BHM), for example) and techniques that account for nonlinear relations between proxy values and temperature (pairwise comparison; PAI) or combine information from proxy data and climate models (offline data assimilation; DA). All procedures use the same input data-set (ref. 21, Supplementary Fig. 1) and the same calibration dataset for the reconstruction target, the infilled version25 of HadCRUT419. "

I was pleasantly surprised by this submission however: "Last phase of the Little Ice Age forced by volcanic eruptions"
This article only reinforced what many suspect, volcanic activity posed (s) the biggest threat to our climate. The article also alludes to sun flare activity as an 'x factor' in all of this. Again, many of us suspect the sun as the biggest contributor in recent climate change.

To his credit Joost put forth an effort here. The rest of you just supplied more rhetorical bullsh*t.

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Nons(ci)ense in the OP aside....i
How is the fact that Greenland was at one time so warm that people successfully farmed the region only to be frozen out and displaced in mere centuries nonsense? Why is it nonsensical to question the similarities in these events?

The fact is that Greenland has seen massive temperature swings over the last millennia. The latest warming may be exactly what the island has experienced before.
It seems odd to state it, but these swings may be normal!

None of us were there and can say for certain. To state that this latest event is the by-product of cow farts or exhaust pipes is pure speculation.
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Old Tuesday 20th August 2019, 17:08   #38
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I read all three, tried too anyway.....you digest this:
"Here, we use seven different statistical methods to reconstruct GMST over the past 2,000 yr (1–2000 ; Table 1). The methods range from basic composite-plus-scaling (CPS) and regression-based techniques (such as principal component regression (PCR) and regularized errors in variables (M08)) frequently used in past reconstructions, to newer linear methods (optimal informa-tion extraction (OIE) and a Bayesian hierarchical model (BHM), for example) and techniques that account for nonlinear relations between proxy values and temperature (pairwise comparison; PAI) or combine information from proxy data and climate models (offline data assimilation; DA). All procedures use the same input data-set (ref. 21, Supplementary Fig. 1) and the same calibration dataset for the reconstruction target, the infilled version25 of HadCRUT419.
C’mon now, be fair! I warned you that you’d find the articles heavy going, you can’t say I didn’t. If you had a background of reading peer-reviewed papers on subjects such as this one, you’d know that a paragraph or 2 on methodology is commonplace.

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I was pleasantly surprised by this submission however: "Last phase of the Little Ice Age forced by volcanic eruptions"
This article only reinforced what many suspect, volcanic activity posed (s) the biggest threat to our climate. The article also alludes to sun flare activity as an 'x factor' in all of this. Again, many of us suspect the sun as the biggest contributor in recent climate change.
“What many of us suspect”. Really? “Many of us” who? Your fellow scientific illiterates pursuing anti-environmental agendas?
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Old Wednesday 21st August 2019, 18:23   #39
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Thanks to global warming, Greenland's natural resources are becoming increasingly available and Greenland's soil is becoming more valuable. Nobody is traumatized, unfortunately.
According to some information available in the internet, Trump is attempting to buy Greenland. This suggests, that contrary to appearances he believes in global warming. But probably it is far too late for buying Greenland. This should be done before global warming, when Greenland appeared to be worthless. Maybe a referendum ? What residents of Greenland prefer - to live in the independent country, be be a Danish colony or one more state of the USA.
By the way - perhaps Greenland will become a Viking dream - really green land they searched for and died out there.
But obviously that is catastrophic for the nature.

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Old Wednesday 21st August 2019, 20:06   #40
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. . . Maybe a referendum ? What residents of Greenland prefer - to live in the independent country, be be a Danish colony or one more state of the USA..
If Greenland were ever to be “acquired” by the US there’s very little chance of it ever achieving statehood, at least in the present stage of the world. The best it could hope for is self-governing colonial status like Puerto Rico’s and we know how that’s been working out under the Trump administration! Fortunately, the Danes and Greenlanders both have rejected Trump’s attempts to discuss a “sale’’ with the scorn they deserve.
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Old Wednesday 28th August 2019, 01:08   #41
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There were attempts of buying Greenland in 1867 and 1946 ...
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Old Friday 6th September 2019, 15:23   #42
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There were attempts of buying Greenland in 1867 and 1946 ...
If Trump can't buy a border wall, what special presidential powers does he have for buying a country?
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Old Wednesday 11th September 2019, 17:13   #43
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......

How is the fact that Greenland was at one time so warm that people successfully farmed the region only to be frozen out and displaced in mere centuries nonsense? Why is it nonsensical to question the similarities in these events?

The fact is that Greenland has seen massive temperature swings over the last millennia. The latest warming may be exactly what the island has experienced before.
It seems odd to state it, but these swings may be normal!


None of us were there and can say for certain. To state that this latest event is the by-product of cow farts or exhaust pipes is pure speculation.
'Buying Greenland'? More irrelevant nonsense.

As expected this paragraph and particularly the lines in bold were completely unaddressed.
You guys tow the man-caused global warming line because that is what you read in the mainstream media and then parrot. And then you attack those who show skepticism. Remember when liberals found it fashionable to question things? These were the same people who fancied themselves as champions of tolerance too, lol.

In the 70's we were destined for an ice age due to hydrocarbons and the depletion of the ozone layer--the publications available to that affect are legion.. Today it is global warming.
Just like this Greenland scenario, AGW fanatics don't want to talk about that. They got it all wrong.


It can be said with DEFINITIVE PROOF: Greenland has endured extreme cooling and warming before; long before man had any alleged influence on our planet. The 'emergency' Greenland is enduring has been experienced before, maybe many times!

My work here is done.
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Old Wednesday 11th September 2019, 22:45   #44
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'Buying Greenland'? More irrelevant nonsense.

As expected this paragraph and particularly the lines in bold were completely unaddressed.
You guys tow the man-caused global warming line because that is what you read in the mainstream media and then parrot. And then you attack those who show skepticism. Remember when liberals found it fashionable to question things? These were the same people who fancied themselves as champions of tolerance too, lol.

In the 70's we were destined for an ice age due to hydrocarbons and the depletion of the ozone layer--the publications available to that affect are legion.. Today it is global warming.
Just like this Greenland scenario, AGW fanatics don't want to talk about that. They got it all wrong.


It can be said with DEFINITIVE PROOF: Greenland has endured extreme cooling and warming before; long before man had any alleged influence on our planet. The 'emergency' Greenland is enduring has been experienced before, maybe many times!
This might clarify the short-term vs. long-term question for you—

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/ge...limate-change/

[We guys “toe” the line, by the way, not “tow” it.]
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Old Thursday 19th September 2019, 12:42   #45
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