Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Zeiss - Always on the lookout for something special – Shop now

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Nikon FF (and DX) Mirrorless rumours/ announcements

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 1 votes, 5.00 average.
Old Monday 26th February 2018, 18:33   #76
opticoholic
Registered User
 
opticoholic's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: northern CA
Posts: 335
Hey Chosun,
Yes we're having quite a lively discussion. I agree with you on many points, and we're probably closer than you might think even where we differ.

I definitely agree that some of Nikon's lenses are not capable of the high resolutions of the sensors, and several lenses are sorely in need of an update/upgrade. In general I think Nikon has lost its edge in lens superiority (with some exceptions), and they just really don't seem to be trying very hard to compete in certain cases. I think you are much more optimistic about how soon curved sensors will sweep in and take over flat sensor systems. I can see that could happen, but I imagine it happening much more slowly, perhaps first only in fixed-lens cameras, with lenses designed for curved sensors slowly taking over part of the ILC space over a decade or more.

You're probably right about road maps and transparency. I think the few other lens road maps I have seen from other manufacturers happened only when rolling out a new system, and since Nikon is about to do that, I think they probably need to at least do a road map for the new mirrorless system. While it would be nice to see less secrecy on other future plans/lenses, I understand that is probably unrealistic.

In general I have really lost confidence in Nikon for a number of reasons I won't take time to list. Just read a few Thom Hogan blog posts and you get the idea. So on top of your greater optimism on how fast we will see major technology/sensor advances, I think I'm also more pessimistic about Nikon as a company and what they are capable of doing. That's why earlier in this discussion I agreed with post #6: I just hope Nikon doesn't "screw this up"... And I also said I would consider it a good step for Nikon to simply match the current mirrorless competition rather than "take the lead." It's that same "thinking small" with low expectations that is behind my sentiment that they should let CX die... I just have trouble believing they could "right that ship" on top of everything else they need so do. And it probably applies to road maps and more transparency as to future commitments, too: i.e., Rather than wish that Nikon would give us road maps or announce plans well into the future, maybe the most I can hope for is that they will do better with simply announcing a new product and then rolling it out successfully 2 months later in sufficient quantity to match demand without severe shortages and delays that drag on for months or years for a product that is supposed to already be in production... I will say Nikon has done several things pretty well in the last 2 years or so, so hopefully that will continue.

Dave

Last edited by opticoholic : Monday 26th February 2018 at 23:22. Reason: word-smithing
opticoholic is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2012 2013 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Tuesday 27th February 2018, 01:01   #77
etudiant
Registered User
BF Supporter 2018

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 4,106
Quote:
Originally Posted by opticoholic View Post
Hey Chosun,
Yes we're having quite a lively discussion. I agree with you on many points, and we're probably closer than you might think even where we differ.

I definitely agree that some of Nikon's lenses are not capable of the high resolutions of the sensors, and several lenses are sorely in need of an update/upgrade. In general I think Nikon has lost its edge in lens superiority (with some exceptions), and they just really don't seem to be trying very hard to compete in certain cases. I think you are much more optimistic about how soon curved sensors will sweep in and take over flat sensor systems. I can see that could happen, but I imagine it happening much more slowly, perhaps first only in fixed-lens cameras, with lenses designed for curved sensors slowly taking over part of the ILC space over a decade or more.

You're probably right about road maps and transparency. I think the few other lens road maps I have seen from other manufacturers happened only when rolling out a new system, and since Nikon is about to do that, I think they probably need to at least do a road map for the new mirrorless system. While it would be nice to see less secrecy on other future plans/lenses, I understand that is probably unrealistic.

In general I have really lost confidence in Nikon for a number of reasons I won't take time to list. Just read a few Thom Hogan blog posts and you get the idea. So on top of your greater optimism on how fast we will see major technology/sensor advances, I think I'm also more pessimistic about Nikon as a company and what they are capable of doing. That's why earlier in this discussion I agreed with post #6: I just hope Nikon doesn't "screw this up"... And I also said I would consider it a good step for Nikon to simply match the current mirrorless competition rather than "take the lead." It's that same "thinking small" with low expectations that is behind my sentiment that they should let CX die... I just have trouble believing they could "right that ship" on top of everything else they need so do. And it probably applies to road maps and more transparency as to future commitments, too: i.e., Rather than wish that Nikon would give us road maps or announce plans well into the future, maybe the most I can hope for is that they will do better with simply announcing a new product and then rolling it out successfully 2 months later in sufficient quantity to match demand without severe shortages and delays that drag on for months or years for a product that is supposed to already be in production... I will say Nikon has done several things pretty well in the last 2 years or so, so hopefully that will continue.

Dave
The industry sells several million ILCs annually and afaik, that number has been essentially flat for several years. Mirrorless has been gaining ground, especially in Asia, perhaps because they are inherently lighter, perhaps also because the mirror mechanism may suffer in a warm humid climate.

I don't believe there are millions of National Geographic or Vogue level photographers out there clamoring for more FF gear, even if every wedding photographer in existence is included. That suggests that the industry is mistaken in catering to the FF/DX crowd, with the massive lenses those formats dictate. These formats are historic relics, left over from the days when a sub micron sensor structure was an achievement.
I don't think they have much growth potential, even though Sony at the introduction of their A7 III claimed FF is gaining share in the ILC market.
So I believe that Nikon would indeed be well advised to reemphasize the 1" format, they have a foothold there and it is a much more flexible and compact format than either DX or FF. The increment in performance from the latter is unjustifiable when balanced against the size and cost of the associated optics.

Last edited by etudiant : Tuesday 27th February 2018 at 02:26.
etudiant is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Tuesday 27th February 2018, 13:59   #78
Vespobuteo
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Utopia
Posts: 2,004
Quote:
Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
The industry sells several million ILCs annually and afaik, that number has been essentially flat for several years. Mirrorless has been gaining ground, especially in Asia, perhaps because they are inherently lighter, perhaps also because the mirror mechanism may suffer in a warm humid climate.

I don't believe there are millions of National Geographic or Vogue level photographers out there clamoring for more FF gear, even if every wedding photographer in existence is included. That suggests that the industry is mistaken in catering to the FF/DX crowd, with the massive lenses those formats dictate. These formats are historic relics, left over from the days when a sub micron sensor structure was an achievement.
I don't think they have much growth potential, even though Sony at the introduction of their A7 III claimed FF is gaining share in the ILC market.
So I believe that Nikon would indeed be well advised to reemphasize the 1" format, they have a foothold there and it is a much more flexible and compact format than either DX or FF. The increment in performance from the latter is unjustifiable when balanced against the size and cost of the associated optics.
It would say that it depends on how large you print and at what ISO you shoot.

A modern 1'' sensor will give about the same IQ as a 10 year old D300. But you still need fast and large lenses for maximal resolution. Up to ISO400 I loved the IQ from the D300 but above it was far from usable in all situations.

A high crop factor/pixel density also makes the quality of the lens even more important.
Look at the latest 200/2.8 from Leica for example, it's not light and neither it's cheap.

And don't forget bokeh.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/525831...t-bokeh-master

Personally I think that the quality you get from current DX format is often good enough for most occasions.

Computunal? photography and new lens types might evolve things but laws of physics still apply.

Last edited by Vespobuteo : Tuesday 27th February 2018 at 14:04.
Vespobuteo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 27th February 2018, 15:36   #79
etudiant
Registered User
BF Supporter 2018

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 4,106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vespobuteo View Post
It would say that it depends on how large you print and at what ISO you shoot.


And don't forget bokeh.


Computunal? photography and new lens types might evolve things but laws of physics still apply.
Absolutely spot on.
It takes a hard copy to really appreciate the full value of a FF image.

That said, do that many users print photos? My impression is that most images never leave the electronic format. So there is an open door for all manner of optimization, enough to permit even the smaller sensor to shine.
etudiant is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Tuesday 27th February 2018, 17:27   #80
Vespobuteo
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Utopia
Posts: 2,004
Quote:
Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
Absolutely spot on.
It takes a hard copy to really appreciate the full value of a FF image.

That said, do that many users print photos? My impression is that most images never leave the electronic format. So there is an open door for all manner of optimization, enough to permit even the smaller sensor to shine.
Pixel peeping at 100% on screen is even more demanding.

But any sensor size might work, just choose the right tool for the right job and viewing device.
Vespobuteo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 8th March 2018, 20:11   #81
nikonmike
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: grimsby uk
Posts: 684
Looks like Sigma dont rate curved sensors

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/sig...sors-and-more/
__________________
Olympus EM1MK11,EM10MK11
Olympus 14-42,60mm macro and 40-150 f2.8+1.4 TC
nikonmike is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 13th March 2018, 15:16   #82
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,048
Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikonmike View Post
Looks like Sigma dont rate curved sensors

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/sig...sors-and-more/
That interview is extremely light on in detail re:- curved sensors
Sigma's CEO says they are "too restrictive" for fixed or ILC cameras. I really don't understand what that means. The resolution benefits have been proven, as has the ease and scalability of manufacture of the sensors.

What it would require though is a complete redesign of all lenses to suit. I would have thought a third party lens manufacturer would be licking their lips at the juicy requirement of a completely new market for lenses opening up.

Perhaps they mean that they don't have the capacity to design and manufacture a completely new line at the moment. I can also see difficulties if a common standard for curvature is not adopted - if every brand went off on their own individual formula for curvature it would be a nightmare to d&c lenses for ...... and economically unfeasible - efficiency wise.

It is a shame this is not being vigorously pushed - we could have lenses that are so much better and lighter

I get the impression that Canon and Nikon are taking their own good time, and will go through the slow evolution of regular flat plane Mirrorless first. We may see curved sensors in Smartphones first, but consumer and pro cameras are where the really significant weight and to a lesser extent, size reductions lay .....



Chosun
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Tuesday 13th March 2018, 16:06   #83
njlarsen
Opus Editor
 
njlarsen's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Portsmouth, Dominica
Posts: 21,428
My guess is that it would be more likely to occur in a fixed lens compact first, and only after proven reliable there would someone think about ILC use. Think about how much it would take to make a new system and how long it would take to populate with a completely new set of lenses -- I guess it would be very difficult to build a universal adapter to retrofit older lenses into such a camera.

Niels
__________________
Support bird conservation in the Caribbean: BirdCaribbean

Temporarily living in Tennessee
njlarsen is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Tuesday 13th March 2018, 16:29   #84
Vespobuteo
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Utopia
Posts: 2,004
Sigma are in the middle of redesigning their entire lens line to art- and sports-versions for standard flat sensors, so they are probably the last that wants curved sensors to complicate things.

Sony tells us that Ca/Ni will go mirrorless full frame within a year:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/689337...-within-a-year

If Nikon could make the lenses smaller they would have the edge over Sony.

Small cameras like the Ricoh GR would probably be very suitable for a curved sensor making a fast but still light wide-angle zoom possible.

Last edited by Vespobuteo : Tuesday 13th March 2018 at 19:31.
Vespobuteo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 14th March 2018, 01:20   #85
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,048
Unhappy

The slow track for sure ......

So a slow evolution of flat plane Mirrorless technology (though I hope we see the Niki more like Photokina this year rather than CP+ next year!), and a whole new slew of native lenses (at least 2 dozen over time), and various adapters to suit legacy lenses.

All of this requires new investment by the consumer, in technology that in less than 5 years will be obsolete with the curved sensor revolution! The adoption of a Curved Sensor Standard as I said earlier, will be key in allowing Third Party lens manufacturers to participate in a viable Ecosystem, and allow prudent business planning and financing.

This slow track is not great for consumers hoping for ~50% weight reductions via a synthesis of:- Curved Sensors + Mirrorless + Diffraction Optics technologies

I'm left wondering (from a personal point of view) whether there will be any real incentive to buy into the Mirrorless fray unless something comes along to WOW me. I get the gut feel that by the time that happens late in the Mirrorless system development life cycle that the Industry will finally be debuting the aforementioned Curved Sensor + recipe ..............

Damned enticing and similtaneously annoying and expensive technology road maps! grrr!



Chosun
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Thursday 15th March 2018, 11:57   #86
nikonmike
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: grimsby uk
Posts: 684
Have Nikon lost the plot

http://thenewcamera.com/
__________________
Olympus EM1MK11,EM10MK11
Olympus 14-42,60mm macro and 40-150 f2.8+1.4 TC
nikonmike is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 16th March 2018, 23:54   #87
etudiant
Registered User
BF Supporter 2018

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 4,106
[quote=Chosun Juan;3690766]The slow track for sure ......

So a slow evolution

This slow track is not great for consumers hoping for ~50% weight reductions via a synthesis of:- Curved Sensors + Mirrorless + Diffraction Optics technologies


Slower evolution is the most likely path.
Mirrorless is pretty simple in comparison to curved sensors or DO, yet the mirrorless evolution is happening only very slowly.
Now camera sales volume growth has stopped and business is less lucrative, so things will be even slower to develop. Today the manufacturers are hyping very modest gains in performance that are not really visible to the average consumer.
Imho, much smaller, lighter, more integrated cameras that are easy to carry and simple to use are the way forward.
The manufacturers clearly don't share that view, as they are emphasizing larger, more complex and expensive full frame cameras.
etudiant is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Monday 19th March 2018, 04:06   #88
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,048
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
The slow track for sure ......

So a slow evolution

This slow track is not great for consumers hoping for ~50% weight reductions via a synthesis of:- Curved Sensors + Mirrorless + Diffraction Optics technologies

Slower evolution is the most likely path.
Mirrorless is pretty simple in comparison to curved sensors or DO, yet the mirrorless evolution is happening only very slowly.
Now camera sales volume growth has stopped and business is less lucrative, so things will be even slower to develop. Today the manufacturers are hyping very modest gains in performance that are not really visible to the average consumer.
Imho, much smaller, lighter, more integrated cameras that are easy to carry and simple to use are the way forward.
The manufacturers clearly don't share that view, as they are emphasizing larger, more complex and expensive full frame cameras.
There are lots of interviews/ opinion/ analysis being reported at the moment after CP+ 2018.

Two contrasting ones which are in fact quite telling are from Sony https://m.dpreview.com/interviews/11...s-technologies
and Canon https://m.dpreview.com/interviews/18...us-to-level-up

Sony seems to be more 'new engineering' focussed, and have more of a handle on what those customers new to photography require. They make specific mention of having their FE mount 'open source' with plenty of Third Party lenses hitting the market currently as a result.

Canon in practical terms are a bit more clueless and less focused on connectivity, interface, and work flow, preferring to 'protect' established segments and marketing niches. It seems to be quite regimented and micro-segmented when it comes to current product line ups, engineering and development pipelines. Sometimes I wonder who their customers actually are in reality! It's no wonder that some segments of the market are in decline. They want to cover every single level of product, and are even coming up with 'parts bin specials' https://m.dpreview.com/news/56537675...-ever-launched.

I expect we may see some inside commentary from interviews with senior Nikon execs soon too. It seems that apart from the changing market and imaging landscape (and revolutionary new customer base) , that dealing with the massive legacy catalogue and mounts for both Canon and Nikon is a huge question that each company is still wrestling with.

The 2020 Tokyo Olympics will be a huge impetus and deadline for the emergence of professional level FF Mirrorless product.

I agree that the smaller sensor formats (1" , MFT) are where we are likely to see innovations along the lines of computational photography really lift their performance. I really wish though that those makers already heavily invested in the MFT arena would provide some decent faster telephotos (f5.6, f4.5 , 4 or 500's) rather than hamstringing the system with f6.3, or f6.7 top speeds.

Larger format (APS-C, FF) Curved Sensors + Mirrorless + Diffraction Optics technologies would be a beautifully elegant solution, though I am decidedly less optimistic now, and it doesn't look like arriving until a whole new generation of flat plane Mirrorless has painstakingly evolved first. Perhaps as long as ~ 5 years down the track ....... and even then, the significant investment would best be served by 'open source' industry agreement and Standards.

If the MFT players stuck their heads together and cooperated, it is possible they could introduce that Curved Sensors + Mirrorless + Diffraction Optics technologies recipe, perhaps even as a surprise revolution for the 2020 Olympics ...... we can hope can't we !?



Chosun

Last edited by Chosun Juan : Monday 19th March 2018 at 04:40.
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Monday 19th March 2018, 13:46   #89
etudiant
Registered User
BF Supporter 2018

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 4,106
The missing ingredients in this industry are a standards body and a decent academic research base.
The Internet had Carnegie Mellon and the IETF, today even the lowly USB has standards and engineering groups that hammer out the specifications for each generation. But in cameras, there is little contact to academia and the products are all siloed. nothing interchangeable and no standards, to the detriment of the customer.
Sony is attempting to reset the model, using the open source idea as a model.
They can afford it best, as they have little legacy glass to defend and make their money in sensors.
Canon and Nikon are lens makers first, not sensor specialists, so the open source model has no attraction for them, plus Canon is profitable and the market leader, hence unlikely to rock the boat. A serious Chinese entry into the market might drive change, but is not even a rumor as yet.
etudiant is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Monday 19th March 2018, 15:44   #90
nikonmike
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: grimsby uk
Posts: 684
A one-inch sensor in a m4/3 body and you could have a 540mm f2.8 add a 1.4 converter and get a 756mm f4

https://www.wexphotovideo.com/panaso...-lens-1643853/
__________________
Olympus EM1MK11,EM10MK11
Olympus 14-42,60mm macro and 40-150 f2.8+1.4 TC
nikonmike is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 19th March 2018, 17:16   #91
etudiant
Registered User
BF Supporter 2018

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 4,106
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikonmike View Post
A one-inch sensor in a m4/3 body and you could have a 540mm f2.8 add a 1.4 converter and get a 756mm f4

https://www.wexphotovideo.com/panaso...-lens-1643853/
Nobody wants to carry big glass, but it is currently essential to feed the big sensors.
I don't know where the smaller 1" sensors lag the big FF options.
Is it diffraction limitations, sensor dynamic range, sensor noise or what?
Perhaps they need to use a different material than silicon or new sensor structures.
It needs the kind of transformative innovation that academic research sometimes makes possible, but it is not evident that is happening.
etudiant is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Wednesday 18th April 2018, 14:58   #92
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
Nobody wants to carry big glass, but it is currently essential to feed the big sensors.
I don't know where the smaller 1" sensors lag the big FF options.
Is it diffraction limitations, sensor dynamic range, sensor noise or what?
Perhaps they need to use a different material than silicon or new sensor structures.
It needs the kind of transformative innovation that academic research sometimes makes possible, but it is not evident that is happening.
All of the above ....
I think as more and more advanced sensor architecture and materials become available, then the smaller sensors (in concert with things such as computational photography) start to become more viable for bird photographers. m43 seriously needs some fast telephoto glass though - a 500 f4 Diffractive Optics/Phase Fresnal design shouldn't break the size and weight bank .....

Of course every sensor and processing advance applied to smaller sensors will also inspire new levels of envy and expectation when applied to larger formats ...... thus moving the goal posts on again .....



Chosun
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Wednesday 18th April 2018, 15:20   #93
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,048
This is crazy stuff 'By Thom'.
Usually his analyses make some degree of sense - but not this one - he seems to conflate game theory with some really bad strategy ....
http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/...prisoners.html

I would suggest that if Nikon doesn't go with the full fat minimalist 'Z' mount for its new Mirrorless format (thus maximizing all the weight savings benefits and wide angle and stabilization capabilities) then it is sunk.

Of course it needs to look after it's legacy lens customer base - and the way to do this with a new 16mm FFD 'Z' mount is with fully functioning and capable adapters. Multiple versions if necessary. The opporrunity to engineer various adapters/ converters is compelling. And preferably offer base verions free or promoted at launch to minimize the fleecing of it's loyal customers.

Doing so would put the pressure on to provide new lenses at launch and quickly afterwards but also open up a huge new market opportunity. It also maximizes the size and weight savings for us the consumers (well within the flat plane sensor paradigm anyway ....). A critical overriding factor imho.

I would suggest that Nikon develop a 'classic' version of the retro styled Df II equipped with focus motors and screw drives and mechanical apertures etc to cater for those customers with really old legacy lenses.

Hope you're listening Nikon .......



Chosun
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Thursday 19th April 2018, 01:58   #94
etudiant
Registered User
BF Supporter 2018

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 4,106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
This is crazy stuff 'By Thom'.
Usually his analyses make some degree of sense - but not this one - he seems to conflate game theory with some really bad strategy ....
http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/...prisoners.html

I would suggest that if Nikon doesn't go with the full fat minimalist 'Z' mount for its new Mirrorless format (thus maximizing all the weight savings benefits and wide angle and stabilization capabilities) then it is sunk.

Of course it needs to look after it's legacy lens customer base - and the way to do this with a new 16mm FFD 'Z' mount is with fully functioning and capable adapters. Multiple versions if necessary. The opporrunity to engineer various adapters/ converters is compelling. And preferably offer base verions free or promoted at launch to minimize the fleecing of it's loyal customers.

Doing so would put the pressure on to provide new lenses at launch and quickly afterwards but also open up a huge new market opportunity. It also maximizes the size and weight savings for us the consumers (well within the flat plane sensor paradigm anyway ....). A critical overriding factor imho.

I would suggest that Nikon develop a 'classic' version of the retro styled Df II equipped with focus motors and screw drives and mechanical apertures etc to cater for those customers with really old legacy lenses.

Hope you're listening Nikon .......



Chosun
From a bird photography perspective, does FF mirrorless really matter?

The size of the sensor pretty much determines the size of the lens, all other things being equal. Even if the camera body shrinks due to the removal of the mirror box, the overall setup will still be big and bulky from all that glass.

Nikon has limited resources, it would take multiple years before they could deliver a full complement of lenses for a new mount.
If there is no compelling benefit, why bother?
etudiant is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Thursday 19th April 2018, 07:02   #95
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
From a bird photography perspective, does FF mirrorless really matter?

The size of the sensor pretty much determines the size of the lens, all other things being equal. Even if the camera body shrinks due to the removal of the mirror box, the overall setup will still be big and bulky from all that glass.

Nikon has limited resources, it would take multiple years before they could deliver a full complement of lenses for a new mount.
If there is no compelling benefit, why bother?
Etud,

Your point has validity to an extent, but don't focus on the traditional big FF DSLR + 600mm f4 Super telephoto analogy only. For while the weight and size benefits of deleting the mirror box, ovf, and reducing lens length accordingly are relatively small, what we are talking about is setting and optimising the design parameters going forward for a truly versatile system (encompassing many types of uses), that offers more than just incremental gains.

Specifically, the same minimal FFD 'Z' mount that takes long telephoto lenses will also take pancake lenses, fast standard focal length primes, and compact zooms for street photography rigs etc. Further, it will also be used on APS-C Mirrorless versions too, and Nikon has said it offers significant benefits for fast ultra wide lenses.

A new paradigm under this system for a birding rig might be a high resolution APS-C (or even FF) sensor with in-camera crop facility (offering 2x focal length 35mm equivalent), with say a 300mm f4 PF with or without an additional 1.4xTC for [email protected], or [email protected], or with a 500mm f5.6 PF for [email protected] ....... such outfits weighing ~ 1.1kg (2&1/2lb) - 2kg (4&1/2lb). Emminently doable.

Then take this exact same body and change to your 35mm f1.2, or 50mm f1.8 prime, or 24-85mm f2.8, or 10-24mm f4, or 18-300 f5.6 zoom for a nice portrait/ walk around/ landscape/ travel, set up etc .....

Pretty nifty huh?

The job of redesigning lenses for the new mount should in most part involve minor design tweaks and re-engineering of existing optical formulas and lenses, and while the volume is onerous, the difficulty is not extreme. They would be well advised to target certain key lenses in professional, prosumer, and consumer grades concurrently first .... ie. 15, 24, 35, 50, 85mm fast primes, 70-200 f2.8, and 10-24 f4, and 80-400 f5.6 zooms, and 3 & 400 f4, and 5 & 600 f5.6 PF's, etc

Hopefully Nikon are designing the new PF telephotos natively for the Mirrorless mount and then reverse engineering an FX mount compatible version for current and future DSLR users.

Critical to the whole shebang will be a range of fully functioning adapters, and opening the spec and operating protocols to 3rd party lens manufacturers.


Chosun

Last edited by Chosun Juan : Thursday 19th April 2018 at 08:26.
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Friday 20th April 2018, 02:51   #96
etudiant
Registered User
BF Supporter 2018

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 4,106
Guess we will see what Nikon comes up with.
The appeal of mirrorless is that it will allow smaller camera bodies and lenses, plus perhaps greater reliability as the mirror assembly disappears.
The challenge is that Nikon is behind in this space, at a time when they are financially strapped.
Imho, it needs some compelling Nikon specific advantage for them to dare to bet heavily on redoing their product line. Hopefully that will be forthcoming.
etudiant is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Friday 20th April 2018, 05:38   #97
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,048
Lightbulb Modular Grip Innovation

Getting rid of the mirror, mirror box (ie. having a minimal flange focal distance [FFD]) , and the optical viewfinder (OVF) frees up a lot of room, and allows the camera thickness to reduce significantly (almost like a fat mobile phone). With a pancake lens, small fixed prime, or small zoom this then almost allows even a FF Mirrorless camera to be pocketable (okay, it's a large pocket! but you get the drift :)

The thing is you need a grip to hang on to especially with larger lenses. I find all mirrorless setups to be pretty dinky as far as the ergonomics go - primarily because of the grip not being large enough. There has been a trend with m43 to come out with larger and larger bodies (which kind of defeats their purpose) in order to address this. Still, I find true joy starts at a Canon 7D / Nikon D500 size (well for me anyway) with a 'man-sized' hand filling grip.

What I would like to see (and heck Nikon you may as well do it since no-one else is) , is ne of those minimalist small wedge type grips built-in on the camera body and the battery housed within the body. This makes even a FF Mirrorless with the aforementioned pancake/ small prime/ small zoom a very compact affair - pretty much as compact as anything else out there - great as an unobtrusive street /travel camera that is truly capable in low light.

Then I would like to see a range of modular grips (containing another battery - with waterproof connector) that would just slide straight over the top AND be fully weatherproof. These would come in a number of different sized grips - all the way up to that 7D/ D500 size suitable for use with long telephoto lenses.

Surely with a bit of engineering application such an innovation is doable? and would have to be a winner - almost like a 'transformer' type camera. Anyone else see utility in that?



Chosun
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Monday 30th April 2018, 14:39   #98
opticoholic
Registered User
 
opticoholic's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: northern CA
Posts: 335
This latest rumor says it may not ship for another full year? Wow. If I were in the market for a new mirrorless camera (I'm not), I wouldn't wait; I'd pick something else available right now. Especially in light of how badly Nikon has rolled out some previous products, with delays and shortages. The only substance to this rumor is that we may have to wait quite a bit longer this year before we get a more substantive rumor...
Dave

Last edited by opticoholic : Monday 30th April 2018 at 14:47.
opticoholic is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2012 2013 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Monday 30th April 2018, 16:08   #99
etudiant
Registered User
BF Supporter 2018

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 4,106
Quote:
Originally Posted by opticoholic View Post
This latest rumor says it may not ship for another full year? Wow. If I were in the market for a new mirrorless camera (I'm not), I wouldn't wait; I'd pick something else available right now. Especially in light of how badly Nikon has rolled out some previous products, with delays and shortages. The only substance to this rumor is that we may have to wait quite a bit longer this year before we get a more substantive rumor...
Dave
I agree, the track record suggests patience is warranted.
Perhaps the Nikon promise to differentiate with superior technology is also a factor. In a declining market, they might prefer to delay rather than to come out with a 'meh' product.
etudiant is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Tuesday 1st May 2018, 00:13   #100
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,048
Arrow

The Japanese financial year begins on 1st April (yep! that's no joke :)

Nikon have said that they will release before the next financial year (meaning northern hemisphere spring 2019) - see the linked recent interview with Nikon executive officer Kimito Uemura by NHK World Japan. Rumours have an announcement expected in several months (around Photokina 2018).

I agree though, this is something that Nikon have to get right from the get go ..... that means fully sorted, no bugs or quality/production issues, and solid supply numbers and flag a suitable lens road map.

Sony has set the bar high with their recently released BSI CMOS sensor a7 III, and Canon also has a FF Mirrorless in the works, so Nikon will have to be bang on, and meet their stated aims - leading IQ, EVF performance, availability of fast lenses, and long telephoto capability .....

The functionality and performance of the necessary adapters to cater to legacy lenses will be key (as will be their pricing and positioning I suspect - perhaps we may see some sort of complimentary, or promotional offer to spur action - turning tyre kickers into buyers).

https://www.nikonrumors.co/nikon-exe...pring-of-2019/




Chosun

Last edited by Chosun Juan : Tuesday 1st May 2018 at 00:16.
Chosun Juan is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Nikon mirrorless squidge Nikon 5 Thursday 6th November 2014 22:52
GH4 and other mirrorless vs Nikon D4s njlarsen Micro Four Thirds 4/3 Photography 8 Monday 16th June 2014 17:04
New Nikon Rumours: D400 and 300mm f4.0 Pasquier Nikon 4 Thursday 22nd August 2013 20:22
Nikon rumours Duke Leto Nikon 17 Friday 22nd July 2011 20:49
Nikon D4 Rumours Duke Leto Nikon 2 Tuesday 17th November 2009 11:56

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.27967310 seconds with 38 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 12:27.