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Anybody bored with near-identical B-species? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter jurek
- Start date
KenM
Well-known member
I just thought that might be the ''driver''.....Cos poking around in the dark for an otherwise obscure grey sp. would not be a priority for my needs, but then it takes all kinds.
Good luck to you in your future endeavours. :t:
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
I was referring to the way it's slipped in through field guides not the listing authorities.. You don't have a book to sell do you Pete so therefore no advantage gained from numerous splits or voguish renaming and when I made the remark, you were not one of those it was aimed at? Are you anyway, seriously saying that the trend for splitting doesn't help tours or books sell?
I'm not the only one who thinks that authors support or push unneccessary and in some cases unqualified splitting, probably the only one impolitic enough to write it here though.
A
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petemorris
Well-known member
Hi Andy
For some time now we have followed the IOC list. We do flag up other potential splits on our checklists to try to help the customer, but we follow the IOC.
I am not sure that lots of splits sell tours. I think I sold Colombia tours just as easily ten years ago when there were only c80% of the endemics there are now...
Cheers
Pete
DMW
Well-known member
Andy, I get the sense that this is about some personal beef you have with James Eaton. He might not have a lot of letters after his name but I don't think you will find many authors better qualified than him when it comes to Asian bird taxonomy. While some of the taxonomic decisions he and his co-authors have made in the new Indonesia field guide might not have universal support, it is a magnificent book and represents a huge advance on what was previously available. If you are indeed suggesting that he and his colleahues at BTA have promoted spurious or weakly-supported splits to sell tours or books, I suggest you head out to Wallacea with an open mind, and see if you still feel the same way.
Cheers
Duncan
Cheers
Duncan
lewis20126
Well-known member
I agree entirely - I've only seen a small sample of the new species and splits in Wallacea but there is no doubt in my mind that almost all of the Eaton et al. splits and new species will find wider support in due course. [Not sure about all those Drongos though James!
] As with the new Indonesia Guide, I would prefer to have a field guide which helps identify the birds that I might see, rather than be a rehash of already published material on birds which are 'accepted by the scientific community, because collector X has obtained a type series of 10 specimens and published a paper that has taken 25 years to write'. Of course in this case, at least two of the field guide authors are very likely to be (amongst) the describers of the new taxa anyway.
cheers, alan
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
Why would you single James out, he's not the only non scientist / taxonomist and how does a personal opinion get preceived to be a 'beef'?
I've NEVER doubted the quality of the book, I wouldn't have bought it if I had! I only mentioned this book as it's the most recent and most extreme in the splits applied along with HBW.
I've known both James and Rob for almost twenty years, I spent time with them both on what must have been their very first trip to Asia and have also been to Borneo and Thailand with Rob before Birdtour Asia was conceived, so to suggest a 'beef' is very wide of the mark.
I've been to Wallacea a couple of times with an already open mind btw.
A
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Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
DMW
Well-known member
Maybe it's because you have made disparaging comments about him previously on BF?However, perhaps you would like to put me straight by listing the tour leaders you have in mind who have also authored field guides with comprehensively novel taxonomies, and who you think are unqualified to make taxonomic judgements?
I bet when you were in Wallacea you had Coates & Bishop, and therefore didn't have much of a clue about how distinctive many of the taxa are that they lumped. It's hard to have an open mind when you don't actually know what to look for. For example, nobody was going to Roti before a number of endemic splits were mooted. The new Indonesia guide splits off the Island Leaf Warbler on Roti, and when you look at it properly, you see that it has a honking great bill and a distinctive jizz. However, without having been forewarned, I'm not sure I would have bothered to look properly.
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
I have NEVER made disparaging remarks about James....point me to them!
Are ANY authors qualified to make taxonomic judgements if they aren't trained geneticists? No matter how good a field birder you are, without a scientific background you are not a scientist and if physical attributes such as the ones you point out are all it takes to split a species then we can all do that.
I'll bow out of this as you seem intent on creating a situation that doesn't exist, you're trying to provoke me in to slagging someone off so don't expect another reply or I run the risk of a ban.
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lewis20126
Well-known member
Errr.. yes, indeed you can describe new species. I know there a number of bird taxa that have been described recently by people without any professional qualifications in taxonomy so there is nothing stopping you. Historically, say C19, I suspect that this was very common. More widely, many critical plant taxa, eg in the genera Rubus, have been described by brilliant 'amateurs'.
cheers, alan
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
Alan,
we're not talking about new species but splits, surely a simple, physical description of a race is not sufficient to elevate it to species level?
If it is then I'm splitting Morrocan Magpie.........
A
lewis20126
Well-known member
You are free to publish a paper which suggests splitting the Magpie. Whether anyone or any checklist takes you up on the suggestion, will depend on the quality of the research and not, I suggest, on your (lack of relevant) qualifications.
cheers, a
petemorris
Well-known member
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
HBW already have I believe
But a's paper - if good enough - might persuade all the other checklists to follow suit :t:
temmie
Well-known member
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
I'm not going to start this up again.
If anyone has been offended by my opinion, I apologise. In retrospect, I can see how my words could have been construed by some but no personal sleight was intended to anyone. No single individual or group was in mind and I concede that some of my comments were ill conceived and certainly without qualification.
A
If anyone has been offended by my opinion, I apologise. In retrospect, I can see how my words could have been construed by some but no personal sleight was intended to anyone. No single individual or group was in mind and I concede that some of my comments were ill conceived and certainly without qualification.
A
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