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New official Checklist of the birds of Germany sparks debate

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Old Tuesday 29th January 2019, 17:08   #76
DMW
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Originally Posted by Nutcracker View Post
Except for those who refuse to use one or the other name on principle

Like I refuse to use the renaming of Black Vulture (Mönchsgeier) with a ridiculous name that means "pale greyish-white vulture".
Hang-on... wasn't it you who was having a pop at me for using "Black-shouldered Kite" instead of the ridiculous "Black-winged Kite"? Hmmm...
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Old Tuesday 29th January 2019, 17:24   #77
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"Mönchsgeier" is another one of those names with religious connotation ... wonder how long that one will remain!

Regards,

Henning
Which birds have been renamed for this reason?

Are the American's considering renaming Cardinals and what about Bishops?
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Old Tuesday 29th January 2019, 17:37   #78
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Which birds have been renamed for this reason?

Are the American's considering renaming Cardinals and what about Bishops?
Wait before someone learns Czech and finds that we call some birds literally "little popes"!
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Old Tuesday 29th January 2019, 18:20   #79
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Hi Andy,

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Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
Which birds have been renamed for this reason?
I mentioned these earlier in this thread:

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Originally Posted by Hauksen View Post
I believe "Dompfaff" and "Nonnengans" fell out of favour because of their religious connotations. However, my impression was that "Dompfaff" was a Protestant name poking fun at the ornate of catholic priests, so it might not have been as popular in Catholic parts of Germany.
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Henning
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Old Tuesday 29th January 2019, 18:21   #80
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Hi Jan,

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Wait before someone learns Czech and finds that we call some birds literally "little popes"!
Quite fascinating! :-) Which species would that be?

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Henning
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Old Tuesday 29th January 2019, 18:30   #81
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Originally Posted by Hauksen View Post
"Mönchsgeier" is another one of those names with religious connotation ... wonder how long that one will remain!
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Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
Which birds have been renamed for this reason?
Perhaps Mönchsgrasmücke (Blackcap)?



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Originally Posted by DMW View Post
Hang-on... wasn't it you who was having a pop at me for using "Black-shouldered Kite" instead of the ridiculous "Black-winged Kite"? Hmmm...
Not me, as far as I remember! Though there is a problem there when Black-shouldered is reserved for Australia's Elanus axillaris after splitting E. caeruleus sensu lato.
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Old Tuesday 29th January 2019, 18:33   #82
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I favour renaming the religious folks in order to protect the sanctity of our birds. He of the Holy See shall therefore be known as Vatican Man (drives a white van), while all cardinals and bishops of the religious world shall hence forth be known as Godly Underlings.
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Old Tuesday 29th January 2019, 19:10   #83
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Hi Andy,



I mentioned these earlier in this thread:



Regards,

Henning
None in the English language though, what problem do German's have with such names?

Negrofinches are the most obvious name that needed changing in English and they have been, now Nigritas and I assume that the forthcoming 2nd edition of Stevenson and Fanshawe will adopt the change?
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Old Tuesday 29th January 2019, 19:16   #84
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Hi Andy,

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None in the English language though, what problem do German's have with such names?
Beats me. It seems to be a definite trend though.

Regards,

Henning
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Old Tuesday 29th January 2019, 20:44   #85
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I believe "Dompfaff" and "Nonnengans" fell out of favour because of their religious connotations.
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Originally Posted by Hauksen View Post
Beats me. It seems to be a definite trend though
Isn't that a mere speculation from your side? Or do you have a source somewhere stating religious considerations of a supposed renaming? I didn't find anything.

I had a look at my old Johnson printed in 1992, which was translated by Barthel (the same guy responsible for the latest list): already then Weisswangengans and Gimpel are used. So if ever there was a renaming in of these in the official list, its hardly part of a recent trend... Perhaps Dompfaff was always the more folksy version and Gimpel the serious one?

The 1992 Johnson calls Greenfinch a Grünling, while books nowadays have it as Greenfinch, but I guess no religion was involved here. Stieglitz is still Stieglitz, although Distelfink is also commonly used.

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Old Tuesday 29th January 2019, 21:31   #86
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Hi Dalat,

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Isn't that a mere speculation from your side? Or do you have a source somewhere stating religious considerations of a supposed renaming?
You could call it speculation, though I've heard other birders explicitely calling it a policy they agree with, so it's not something I personally came up with.

And as I've pointed out above, the "traditional" naming of birds wasn't necessarily homogeneous throughout Germany, so it might be a case of the names more commonly used in protestant North Germany being replaced by other commonly used names - as for example "Gimpel".

It might be worth noting that per the document linked in the first post, the "Heiliger Ibis" ('Sacred Ibis') has just been renamed "Pharaonenibis", which also fits the pattern.

This could of course all be entirely coincedental. Maybe the Monk Vulture is a good indicator species to verify - or falsify - the hypothesis ;-)

Regards,

Henning
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Old Tuesday 29th January 2019, 22:20   #87
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Hi Henning, as justification for the renaming of the Sacred Ibis, they say (my translation): "The former Sacred Ibis T.a. is now called - historically more accurately - Pharaonenibis". I'm not sure why the new name would be more accurate, but they don't say it was about religion.

And as long as Vultures (and blackcaps) are still named after monks, I think indeed that we do not need to have concerns about too much religious correctness in the German bird naming commission.
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Old Tuesday 29th January 2019, 22:57   #88
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Hi,

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Originally Posted by dalat View Post
And as long as Vultures (and blackcaps) are still named after monks, I think indeed that we do not need to have concerns about too much religious correctness in the German bird naming commission.
We'll see in a decade or two.

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Henning
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Old Wednesday 30th January 2019, 07:07   #89
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It might be worth noting that per the document linked in the first post, the "Heiliger Ibis" ('Sacred Ibis') has just been renamed "Pharaonenibis", which also fits the pattern.
The renaming took place to avoid names consisting of two separate words: 'Großer Knutt'/Great Knot -> Anadyrknutt; Kleine Bergente/Lesser Scaup -> Kanadabergente (I would have preferred 'Veilchenbergente').
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Old Wednesday 30th January 2019, 08:12   #90
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The renaming took place to avoid names consisting of two separate words: 'Großer Knutt'/Great Knot -> Anadyrknutt; Kleine Bergente/Lesser Scaup -> Kanadabergente (I would have preferred 'Veilchenbergente').
Now, if anyone could explain to me why it is necessary to avoid such names that would mean a lot to me...
I don't think there's any necessity and am unhappy with the results.

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Old Wednesday 30th January 2019, 08:31   #91
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Hi Jan,



Quite fascinating! :-) Which species would that be?

Regards,

Henning
Indigo Bunting and all other in genus Passerina. Don't ask my why, Czech names have been created mostly during the "National Revival" period in 18th/19th century when the modern Czech was formed as a rebellion against the predominantly German-language Austrian government that ruled over the land until WWI.
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Old Wednesday 30th January 2019, 09:14   #92
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Politics, religion and war. Where's the sex? Some of us won't be around in twenty years so why worry about name changes, just enjoy whatever form of nature you can and do a little bit for conservation.
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Old Wednesday 30th January 2019, 09:28   #93
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Now, if anyone could explain to me why it is necessary to avoid such names that would mean a lot to me...
I don't think there's any necessity and am unhappy with the results.
I agree.
One assumption I have is that the committee was 'jealous' of the stringent rules that apply to German botanical nomenclature. There, many vernacular names have been adjusted to fit into a taxonomic system that reflects, similar to the Linnean binomial nomenclature, its taxon (mostly the genus) and will thus follow systematic changes. Instead of a space, the hyphen indicates the genus name.
For example, Schnittlauch (chive) or Bärlauch (ramsons) is now written Schnitt-Lauch / Bär-Lauch, because they belong to the genus Allium.

The name 'Lilie' (lily) is used for different genera and the hyphen allows a classification:
Türkenbund-Lilie (Lilium martagon) -> genus 'Lilien'
Gelbrot-Taglilie (Hemerocallis fulva) -> genus 'Taglilien'
Bunt-Schwertlilie (Iris variegata) -> genus 'Schwertlilien'

Subsequently (at least in Austria) names have been constricted to avoid spaces withing the names. This resulted in really ugly names such as 'Gewöhnlich-Haselnuss', 'Griechisch-Mehlbeere' or 'Durchwachs-Täschelkraut' -

Why? Maybe because if you call a stinging nettle 'Große Brennnessel', it can still be a large specimen of Urtica urens (Kleine Brennessel), whereas if you call a plant 'Groß-Brennnessel' it is clear you are referring to Urtica dioica. Similarly a 'Wiener Blaustern' can be a flower from Vienna, whereas 'Wien-Blaustern' is unambiguously Scilla vindobonensis.

Not giving my opinion about this nomenclature here, just what I assume might be the rationale behind it.

Finally, long live the 'ZIEGENMELKER'!

Cheers, Lorin
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Old Wednesday 30th January 2019, 12:49   #94
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The opening post specifically lists birds demoted from cat. C and comments on it, how is that suddenly not the topic of the thread?
Sorry, must've been a Freudian slip of memory. I still think that the names are the more important issue, as they affect everyone in society, and not just a sub-section of the birding community.
FWIW, I can see why they are applying stricter standards now, but of course it'd be nice if there were more international coordination.


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Originally Posted by PYRTLE View Post
Politics, religion and war. Where's the sex? Some of us won't be around in twenty years so why worry about name changes, just enjoy whatever form of nature you can and do a little bit for conservation.
P
Most of us will hopefully still be around in twenty years, and many of us might have offspring that should inherit a functional language instead of indecipherable bueraucrat speech. I do enjoy nature and place great importance on conservation, but the latter includes conservation of culture, too.


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Originally Posted by Carnifex View Post
Subsequently (at least in Austria) names have been constricted to avoid spaces withing the names. This resulted in really ugly names such as 'Gewöhnlich-Haselnuss', 'Griechisch-Mehlbeere' or 'Durchwachs-Täschelkraut' -
That shouldn't even be possible - those names are grammatically incorrect. That's not German, it's what a Hollywood script writer thinks German sounds like.

regards,
Andy

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Old Wednesday 30th January 2019, 13:30   #95
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Hi,

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Originally Posted by Carnifex View Post
The renaming took place to avoid names consisting of two separate words: 'Großer Knutt'/Great Knot -> Anadyrknutt; Kleine Bergente/Lesser Scaup -> Kanadabergente (I would have preferred 'Veilchenbergente').
Sure, that's the official reason. That doesn't mean it's the only reason ... though after seeing your botany examples, I have to admit that I'm happy with the new name now, as the poor bird could easily have ended up as "Heilig-Ibis"! ;-)

Regards,

Henning
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Old Wednesday 30th January 2019, 14:31   #96
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The renaming took place to avoid names consisting of two separate words: 'Großer Knutt'/Great Knot -> Anadyrknutt; Kleine Bergente/Lesser Scaup -> Kanadabergente (I would have preferred 'Veilchenbergente').
What's the problem with two-word names?
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Old Wednesday 30th January 2019, 20:08   #97
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The renaming took place to avoid names consisting of two separate words: 'Großer Knutt'/Great Knot -> Anadyrknutt; Kleine Bergente/Lesser Scaup -> Kanadabergente (I would have preferred 'Veilchenbergente').
The trouble (and it genuinely is trouble) being that the rest of the world talks about Great Knot and Lesser Scaup, and while German is sufficiently similar to English that English speakers can make a correct intuitive jump faced with the vernacular German, the replacements, invented by people with the arrogant attitude that gave you Vergeltungswaffe and Obersturmbannfuhrer while having the nous that produced dummkopf, don't have that intuitive connection. Germans shoving separate words into one is a bad sign.... Certainly I don't want any of this in the bird book on the coffee table in the living room.

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Old Wednesday 30th January 2019, 20:12   #98
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Old Wednesday 30th January 2019, 20:41   #99
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At least it's not Swedish. There, you might need to get the opinion of the spårvagnsaktiebolagsskensmutsskjutarefackförenings personalbeklädnadsmagasinsförrådsförvaltarens.
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Old Thursday 31st January 2019, 00:51   #100
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Hi John,

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The trouble (and it genuinely is trouble) being that the rest of the world talks about Great Knot and Lesser Scaup, and while German is sufficiently similar to English that English speakers can make a correct intuitive jump faced with the vernacular German
Good point - it also blocks the intuitive jump in the other direction, so it creates obstacles all around.

Regards,

Henning
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