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ID medium sized juvenile bird Kathmandu Valley

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Old Friday 12th July 2019, 10:36   #1
Arend
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ID medium sized juvenile bird Kathmandu Valley

Friends of mine saw and photographed this bird at 1400m in Kathmandu Valley, maybe 20cm or so. Apparently a juvenile. Could not find similar bird in the guides or on the web. Anybody an idea?
Thanks,
Arend
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Old Friday 12th July 2019, 11:14   #2
Jean FRANCOIS
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Black-headed Cuckooshrike i think
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Old Friday 12th July 2019, 11:22   #3
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Originally Posted by Jean FRANCOIS View Post
Black-headed Cuckooshrike i think
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Old Friday 12th July 2019, 11:24   #4
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Originally Posted by Jean FRANCOIS View Post
Black-headed Cuckooshrike i think
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Agree
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Old Friday 12th July 2019, 11:29   #5
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Is this a decent record? According to my bird book Nepal is on the very north of their summer range, and eBird has only 23 reports from Nepal compared to 343 for Black-winged and 683 for Large Cuckooshrike.
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Old Friday 12th July 2019, 12:03   #6
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Originally Posted by Seth Miller View Post
Is this a decent record? According to my bird book Nepal is on the very north of their summer range, and eBird has only 23 reports from Nepal compared to 343 for Black-winged and 683 for Large Cuckooshrike.
That was my concern Seth, that it appears to be out of range. Juvenile plumages are rarely illustrated and not very well described as a rule, and I cannot find any images. The darker sub-terminal marks to the coverts are mentioned by Rasmussen in relation to juvenile Black-headed. There's no doubt it's a juvenile Coracina sp., and I think you can eliminate Large, so that leaves Black-winged or Black-headed but which one?

Black-winged and Black-headed have now been moved from Coracina to Lalage.

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Old Friday 12th July 2019, 14:43   #7
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I couldn't find any pictures of juvenile Black-winged, but I did find a decent pictures of juvenile/immature Black-headed.
http://orientalbirdimages.org/search...mage_ID=159073
http://orientalbirdimages.org/search...mage_ID=152612
http://orientalbirdimages.org/search...mage_ID=130040

These look similar to the bird in the post, but I'm not sure how similar Black-winged are...

The Birds of South Asia the Ripley Guide by Rasmussen and Anderton says about Black-headed juvenile:
"like female but more barred above, with more irregular and buffier edgings to browner wing feathers (pale edgings have blackish inner border, darker than feather centers); below tinged fulvous and less distinctly barred."

and Black-winged juvenile:
"blackish-brown above and brownish-grey below, heavily scaled whitish overall; wing edgings buffy."
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Old Friday 12th July 2019, 15:19   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Miller View Post
I couldn't find any pictures of juvenile Black-winged, but I did find a decent pictures of juvenile/immature Black-headed.
http://orientalbirdimages.org/search...mage_ID=159073
http://orientalbirdimages.org/search...mage_ID=152612
http://orientalbirdimages.org/search...mage_ID=130040

These look similar to the bird in the post, but I'm not sure how similar Black-winged are...

The Birds of South Asia the Ripley Guide by Rasmussen and Anderton says about Black-headed juvenile:
"like female but more barred above, with more irregular and buffier edgings to browner wing feathers (pale edgings have blackish inner border, darker than feather centers); below tinged fulvous and less distinctly barred."

and Black-winged juvenile:
"blackish-brown above and brownish-grey below, heavily scaled whitish overall; wing edgings buffy."
Seth none of your examples are juveniles, that is the issue-the bird in the first link is wrongly aged IMO. Juvenile plumages of Coracina and Lalage are characterised by black and buff/white scaled upper parts as shown by the OP.

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Old Friday 12th July 2019, 16:01   #9
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Originally Posted by Grahame Walbridge View Post
Seth none of your examples are juveniles, that is the issue-the bird in the first link is wrongly aged IMO. Juvenile plumages of Coracina and Lalage are characterised by black and buff/white scaled upper parts as shown by the OP.

Grahame
Whoops, my bad!
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Old Friday 12th July 2019, 16:32   #10
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No worries Seth.

After much searching have finally found some rather poor images of juvenile Black-winged https://search.macaulaylibrary.org/c...sfp=1817143912 you will have to scroll a very long way down (row 52 & 53) the first two are with an adult, taken by 'forest venkat' at Kandaghat, Himachal Pradesh. Unfortunately, the angle isn't very helpful but I am now leaning toward Black-winged which seems the more likely given location.

And another http://indianbirdsphotography.blogsp...ck-winged.html the image showing much younger juvenile (pulli) in the nest


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Old Friday 12th July 2019, 17:43   #11
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Thanks Grahame for the search.
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Old Saturday 13th July 2019, 05:08   #12
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Normally on Macaulay, you can click on "More Filters", just below the bird name, and specify the age. Unfortunately it doesn't work in this case, as the one photo which claims to show a juvenile doesn't.
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Old Saturday 13th July 2019, 05:14   #13
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Grahame, would you say that Cintra Shanker's 3 images in row 5 show a juvenile Black-headed?

https://search.macaulaylibrary.org/c...%20melanoptera
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Old Saturday 13th July 2019, 05:53   #14
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Originally Posted by andyb39 View Post
Grahame, would you say that Cintra Shanker's 3 images in row 5 show a juvenile Black-headed?

https://search.macaulaylibrary.org/c...%20melanoptera
No Andy I would not as there are no visible juvenile markings. This is an older, adult-type and clearly in moult-note the very worn remiges. Upon completion of post juvenile moult they retain at least a few juvenile-type inner greater coverts and one or more tertials which are characterised by black sub-terminal markings, the remiges would still be fresh.

It's difficult to find images sharp enough to show this detail but I did find this one which depicts a bird in a well advanced state of post juvenile moult. http://orientalbirdimages.org/search..._ID=&Location= clearly visible are unmoulted juvenile feathers to the head, mantle, scapulars and rump, inner greater coverts and tertials.

And here's a 2 cy bird, note retained juvenile tertials http://orientalbirdimages.org/search..._ID=&Location=

And a bird at a similar stage of post-juvenile moult to the OP http://orientalbirdimages.org/search..._ID=&Location=

And juvenile http://orientalbirdimages.org/search..._ID=&Location=

Clearly, I couldn't have looked very hard earlier!

Grahame

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Old Sunday 14th July 2019, 08:01   #15
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Completely forgot to add the OP is a moulting juvenile Black-winged Cuckooshrike IMO. Compare this similarly aged Black-headed http://orientalbirdimages.org/search..._ID=&Location= note in particular pale supercilium, paler upperparts with distinctly barred lower back and rump etc.

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Old Sunday 14th July 2019, 09:01   #16
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Nice photo
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Old Sunday 14th July 2019, 09:18   #17
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Dear All,
Many thanks for the insightful discussion. Going by your feedback it is a useful photo of a plumage still missing in guide books and databases. In the meanwhile another friend (Pramisha Karki) shared a photo of both the adult and juvenile Black-winged Cuckooshrike. She was on the same trip. That one seems to settle the issue for BWCshrike. I attach it. I guess they have to share with both MacCaulay's and orientalbirdimages.
Thanks, Arend
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Old Sunday 14th July 2019, 09:20   #18
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Oh, I thought the first excellent photo had the name of the photographer on it. Anyhow it is Prasan Shrestha!
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