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Renaming all North American Birds

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Old Wednesday 17th June 2020, 19:50   #51
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What a dreadful and unimaginative set of suggested names. If you must rename Ross's gull, then why call it pink-hued gull when the name rosy gull would capture that feature in much more euphonious way and would also recall the original name. Similarly, the natural new name for Cooper's hawk should surely be blunt-shinned hawk, comical though the suggestion of aggressive hawk is.

More seriously if you want to get away from names that commemorate Dead Western European Males and the attitudes and history they imply (and there certainly seems to be a case for renaming McCown's longspur at least on that basis) then do it properly. Instead of arbitrarily choosing a new name for its bland correctness, go back to names used by the First Nation Americans and Canadians and use these as the basis of the new names. By nature this would need to be a long process involving a lot of consultation but that's inevitable if you want a credible set of names that birders might actually adopt.
But then, as per previous arguments, it would cease to be an 'English' language list? By this argument, all European, Boreal species should be known by their Viking names.
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Old Wednesday 17th June 2020, 19:56   #52
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I very much doubt that the Black-lives-matter campaign is a significant factor here. The BLM movement started in 2013 but people have been dropping (or proposing the dropping of) eponymous bird names for decades (or longer). The primary consideration seems to be the desire for bird names to reflect an aspect of the bird rather than the people who found/named them more than a matter of post-colonial sensitivities (which is the other relevant factor, something perhaps allied to the BLM movement but quite distinct from it). Given the usual glacial slowness of changing colloquial names I suspect this process by which these names were arrived at likely go back to well before the BLM movement had a significant profile (and certainly nothing like the current one). About a fifth of the suggested c100 changes relate to "descriptive" names no longer regarded as being useful or accurate (e.g. Canada Warbler).

As for the name changes themselves many I find not in the least objectionable per se and, everything being equal, would much prefer a few names (e.g."Kinglet Vireo vs Hutton's). However, "Whimbrel Curlew", "Pink-Hued Gull" and "Mediterranean Shearwater" are absurd whilst changing Forster's Tern to "Marsh Tern" invites confusion with 'proper' Marsh Terns. The changes are also inconsistent retaining, for example, the name 'sparrow' and 'vulture'. Changing the latter to, say 'Turkey-Vulture' would at least allow us to revert to 'Black' Vulture for what many now call Cinereous or Monk Vulture.

However, everything isn't equal and the names we have are sanctified by use, familiar and remind us of pioneering naturalists who largely have no other monument and, with few exceptions (if any), were people of good character and reputation the commemoration of whom is unlikely to cause disquiet.
Not BLM but not far off,
I have previously voiced my objections to segementing our hobby, this is an example of what follows when you do, it's now political.

'This is a list compiled of the regularly occurring birds in North America that have names that we believe should be changed. We took a first pass at offering alternative names. We agree that bird’s should not be named after colonizers, we also think that its generally a poor choice to name any bird after a person. We prefer names that are descriptive to appearance, vocalization, habitat or diet. This undertaking is inspired by discussions during Black Birders Week and from this 10,000 birds article: https://www.10000birds.com/rename-al...ite-people.htm. '
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Old Wednesday 17th June 2020, 20:43   #53
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I have argued for a long time against naming things after things named after something - the classic example being the "Piece Race Bridge" in Prague, named after a race that honored peace (let's put aside for a moment the quality of such honor by a 80's east bloc event), which is redundant and the "Peace Bridge" would be more logical.

Now the Dead Sea does not actually commemorate death, as it is more of a description of the properties of the sea, so I am not sure, if I can raise the same objection against Dead Sea Sparrow, but Dead Sparrow sounds too funny as a species name not to at least try!

EDIT:



Seeing this brilliant argument, I am also willing to settle for Slighty-more-dead-than-usual Sparrow.
Indeed, I like your train of thought.

Some English names are crap I must admit - Hen Harrier - WFT is that all about? Maybe we could call it Persecuted Harrier?
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Old Wednesday 17th June 2020, 21:23   #54
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Indeed, I like your train of thought.

Some English names are crap I must admit - Hen Harrier - WFT is that all about? Maybe we could call it Persecuted Harrier?
That's a cursed species, it's name in Czech is just a gibberish word (probably some old long disused word, but doesn't even sound like anything). Let's call it "unnameable harrier" and it's solved!
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Old Wednesday 17th June 2020, 21:27   #55
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Given the usual glacial slowness of changing colloquial names I suspect this process by which these names were arrived at likely go back to well before the BLM movement had a significant profile (and certainly nothing like the current one). About a fifth of the suggested c100 changes relate to "descriptive" names no longer regarded as being useful or accurate (e.g. Canada Warbler).

As for the name changes themselves many I find not in the least objectionable per se and, everything being equal, would much prefer a few names (e.g."Kinglet Vireo vs Hutton's). However, "Whimbrel Curlew", "Pink-Hued Gull" and "Mediterranean Shearwater" are absurd whilst changing Forster's Tern to "Marsh Tern" invites confusion with 'proper' Marsh Terns. The changes are also inconsistent retaining, for example, the name 'sparrow' and 'vulture'. Changing the latter to, say 'Turkey-Vulture' would at least allow us to revert to 'Black' Vulture for what many now call Cinereous or Monk Vulture.
I think they point blank said most of these were invented on the spot, not going back decades (a few are not recent ideas...the Ring-necked vs Ring-billed Duck was actually a NACC proposal last spring, which was rejected on the basis of being unnecessary). Hence the mentions in the comments about this being a "work in progress. And as a North American birder and someone who would have to deal with these a lot more than other folks here, I do pretty much hate most of these. There are a few here and there which are clever, but most are not.

As for Turkey-Vulture? bleh. Turkey Condor and Black Condor I can get behind...
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Old Wednesday 17th June 2020, 21:32   #56
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More seriously if you want to get away from names that commemorate Dead Western European Males and the attitudes and history they imply (and there certainly seems to be a case for renaming McCown's longspur at least on that basis) then do it properly. Instead of arbitrarily choosing a new name for its bland correctness, go back to names used by the First Nation Americans and Canadians and use these as the basis of the new names. By nature this would need to be a long process involving a lot of consultation but that's inevitable if you want a credible set of names that birders might actually adopt.
The problematic part here is that, especially if you are dealing with a widely distributed species, which Native American word are you going to use? People seem to forget that Native Americans are actually made of numerous diverse cultures with different languages. And it assumes that there was a distinct name for each bird we recognize as a species today, and that the name wasn't shared with a completely different species by a completely different tribe or cultural group.
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Old Wednesday 17th June 2020, 22:50   #57
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What possible problem is there with the name "Canada Warbler"? It breeds in 11 out of the 13 Canadian provinces and territories.
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Old Wednesday 17th June 2020, 22:57   #58
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Some English names are crap I must admit - Hen Harrier - WFT is that all about?
All harriers are called "chicken thieves" in Dutch: just a few steps to "hen harrier" from there!

The only name in that list that I found a positive change was "Kinglet Vireo". You know it makes sense!
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Old Wednesday 17th June 2020, 23:04   #59
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https://www.wildlifeobservernetwork....tpiuDyk7E1RfcY

If you revisit the link you will see a few changes/observations on feedback eg Ross's Goose (Nunavet Goose) and Whimbrel Curlew.

But hey ... I think this is probably a fun starting point with some ideas being bandied about for habitat types and things in replacement and not a serious serious expectation that all will be changing, so we shouldn't diss it too much? We don't know the ages of those taking part. But I'm still upping my disfavour rating to 90% + having had another look ...
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Old Wednesday 17th June 2020, 23:12   #60
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On another note, I actually quite like “Ubiquitous Storm-petrel”. Just wish it was a bit more ubiquitous in Britain, particularly inland Britain. After all, if you can get a Great Shearwater in Milton Keynes...
It wouldn't exactly roll of the tongue on a seawatch though? Or get shortened and then there could be quite the confusion on a mega seawatch on whether it was an Ubi or a Booby* that you should be trying to get on to ...



(* Although presumably Booby would have to be changed at some point.)
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Old Wednesday 17th June 2020, 23:43   #61
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But then, as per previous arguments, it would cease to be an 'English' language list? By this argument, all European, Boreal species should be known by their Viking names.
The, for want of a better word, local names would be used as a starting point, not necessarily directly. They could be used for instance in translation or by adopting an English name that refers to a characteristic recognised in the local name. Also, Bonxie and Tystie could be considered as Viking names that are widely used.


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The problematic part here is that, especially if you are dealing with a widely distributed species, which Native American word are you going to use? People seem to forget that Native Americans are actually made of numerous diverse cultures with different languages. And it assumes that there was a distinct name for each bird we recognize as a species today, and that the name wasn't shared with a completely different species by a completely different tribe or cultural group.
I didn't say it was going to be easy! That is partly why you'd need wide consultation and research to compile a full list of names and their translations/interpretations. Although there might be a range of different names for a given species there may well be some common ground e.g. in names based around e.g. the colour, size or habitat of the species. which could be carried forward into the English name. The point about distinct names for birds we recognise as species is a fair one, but if there are distinct names for given species within specific cultures or areas then that's all the more reason for reflecting those in the English name. Of course there are likely to be many species which don't have clearly identifiable names in any Native American language, but it would be good to know that before selecting a name.
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Old Thursday 18th June 2020, 00:04   #62
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That's a cursed species, it's name in Czech is just a gibberish word (probably some old long disused word, but doesn't even sound like anything). Let's call it "unnameable harrier" and it's solved!
Unmentionable Harrier, because all records need to be suppressed to prevent persecution

(There are certain sites where the locals might apply the same adjective to many other species )
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Old Thursday 18th June 2020, 00:45   #63
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Oh, certainly, Wren on its own is only appropriate in Europe.

However, when Trump causes the final collapse of the USA and you have to rejoin the Empire, one of the first measures we will enforce (after driving on the left), is the re-naming of all American sparrows to buntings
Yeah, just make sure there aren't two strikes. (Don't even try to figure that one out; Americans understand.)
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Old Thursday 18th June 2020, 01:37   #64
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Yes, not all the “new” names were bad, and Rosy Starling is excellent, concise and descriptive. I’ve also always rather liked Hedge Accentor, even though it generally hasn’t replaced Dunnock, which is at least briefer, though Accentor sounds more exotic.
Dunnock is far, far better! A very traditional old English name that actually means something ('little brown bird': 'dun' = brown, 'ock', a small bird; so it is the original LBJ). Accentor is just a meaningless contrivance, 'that which accents things' (like a conductor conducts things). Have you ever seen a Hedge Accentor accenting a hedge, and what did the hedge look like after it had been accented? WTF does it mean??

Harrison (1982, Atlas of the Birds of the Western Palaearctic) very sensibly used 'dunnock' for all of the Prunella species; European Dunnock, Alpine Dunnock, Siberian Dunnock, Radde's Dunnock, etc. I reckon we should all follow suit
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Old Thursday 18th June 2020, 01:42   #65
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There is plenty birds with generic adjective names, but the worst I met was Pale Crag Martin - it's 3 words, so you automatically don't click it as all being a part of the name - the first time I thought someone is trying to convince me it's a Crag Martin, but a pale one, which was clearly absurd.
No worse than Great Crested Grebe, Great Spotted Woodpecker, etc.! Just a bit less familiar . . .
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Old Thursday 18th June 2020, 01:46   #66
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But then, as per previous arguments, it would cease to be an 'English' language list? By this argument, all European, Boreal species should be known by their Viking names.
Like Tystie for Black Guillemot . . . excellent idea

Or Sule for Gannet (as in Sule Skerry and Sula Sgeir)

(Tejste, and Sule, respectively in Danish )
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Old Thursday 18th June 2020, 01:50   #67
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That's a cursed species, it's name in Czech is just a gibberish word (probably some old long disused word, but doesn't even sound like anything). Let's call it "unnameable harrier" and it's solved!
For anyone that's wondering . . .
https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mot%C3%A1k_pilich
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Old Thursday 18th June 2020, 02:29   #68
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There have been a few suggested names over the years I have been fine with...someone over in the taxonomy forum suggested renaming all the new world vultures to condor, so you would have Turkey Condor, Black Condor, King Condor, etc besides the current California and Andean. I rather like that.
That was me I've added the suggestion to their list now and they seem to like it
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Old Thursday 18th June 2020, 03:35   #69
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Dunnock is far, far better! A very traditional old English name that actually means something ('little brown bird': 'dun' = brown, 'ock', a small bird; so it is the original LBJ). Accentor is just a meaningless contrivance, 'that which accents things' (like a conductor conducts things). Have you ever seen a Hedge Accentor accenting a hedge, and what did the hedge look like after it had been accented? WTF does it mean??

Harrison (1982, Atlas of the Birds of the Western Palaearctic) very sensibly used 'dunnock' for all of the Prunella species; European Dunnock, Alpine Dunnock, Siberian Dunnock, Radde's Dunnock, etc. I reckon we should all follow suit
Right here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accentor

Accordingly, Accentor is 'a singer' (from late Latin) and its usage in vernacular names comes directly from adopting the genus name given to the Alpine Accentor before the species was transferred to genus Prunella: it was Accentor collaris.
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Old Thursday 18th June 2020, 03:57   #70
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That was me I've added the suggestion to their list now and they seem to like it
Using 'Condor' for the small Cathartidae seems a very bad idea, imo
The name Condor is specifically associated with a very unique properties, such as maximum size, 'ruler of other birds', mystical/religious heritage, etc. It would be a bit like using Raven to name all other corvids.
An actually good solution (imo...) would be to use the Tupi (or Tupi-Guarani) generic name for all South American vultures (except for Condors), which is 'urubu': this means simply 'big black bird': 'uru': big bird, 'bu': black. Urubu is the common generic name for those species used in Brazil (all 3 Catharthes, Coragyps atratus and Sarcorhamphus papa) and is indeed part of the Portuguese lexicon. A Condor is called a Condor in Brazil, if you're wondering (but it's only a vagrant there).
This would come perfectly in line with other names with Tupi-Guarani origin already being used extensively, such as Tanager (from Tangará), Jacana (Jaçanã) and others.
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Old Thursday 18th June 2020, 09:53   #71
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An actually good solution (imo...) would be to use the Tupi (or Tupi-Guarani) generic name for all South American vultures (except for Condors), which is 'urubu': this means simply 'big black bird': 'uru': big bird, 'bu': black. Urubu is the common generic name for those species used in Brazil (all 3 Catharthes, Coragyps atratus and Sarcorhamphus papa) and is indeed part of the Portuguese lexicon..
And urubu used to be the Polish common name for small American vultures too, which I really liked - unfortunately, now it's been changed to "sępnik", which could be translated as a "vulture-like-something", urubu was much better I would say...
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Old Thursday 18th June 2020, 12:02   #72
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I am certainly for keeping bird names named after European explorers and naturalists. When you read biography of somebody like Robert Swinhoe or Alfred Russel Wallace they were true heroes. In many cases their quest for science cost them their lives. It takes a cheek of somebody sitting in front of the computer to critic them.

Of Czech bird names, everybodys favorite is Ferruginous Duck that is Polak maly. Literally 'a Polish boy', like in well known Polish children rhyme: Who are you? A Polish boy.

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Old Thursday 18th June 2020, 12:06   #73
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I am certainly for keeping bird names named after European explorers and naturalists. When you read biography of somebody like Robert Swinhoe or Alfred Russel Wallace they were true heroes. In many cases their quest for science cost them their lives. It takes a cheek of somebody sitting in front of the computer to critic them!
Now if they want to extend outreach to the Great American Public in general, a noble intent, then all the new names will require the word 'bird' added....
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Old Thursday 18th June 2020, 12:18   #74
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I am certainly for keeping bird names named after European explorers and naturalists. When you read biography of somebody like Robert Swinhoe or Alfred Russel Wallace they were true heroes. In many cases their quest for science cost them their lives. It takes a cheek of somebody sitting in front of the computer to critic them.

Of Czech bird names, everybodys favorite is Ferruginous Duck that is Polak maly. Literally 'a Polish boy', like in well known Polish children rhyme: Who are you? A Polish boy.
From Polish names, we recently run into Zaganiac maly, (Booted Warbler), which is just incredibly funny - but I feel like it has to be funny even in Polish, no? In Czech I read it as "a small person whos job is to drive others away".

I think the feeling is best to shared using expressive theater.

https://youtu.be/cN2bb-8qHNk
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Old Thursday 18th June 2020, 12:45   #75
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From Polish names, we recently run into Zaganiac maly, (Booted Warbler), which is just incredibly funny - but I feel like it has to be funny even in Polish, no? In Czech I read it as "a small person whos job is to drive others away".

https://youtu.be/cN2bb-8qHNk
Sounds like my love life...
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