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Nikon patent 400mm, 500mm and 600mm f/5.6 Phase Fresnel (PF) lenses

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Old Friday 14th September 2018, 14:03   #76
Chosun Juan
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Originally Posted by Vespobuteo View Post
The Nikon's MTF charts and also the LensTip MTF50 (perceived sharpness test) on 24MP FF seem ok, but...

I assume that the f5.6 aperture will be a limit for maximal resolution here, a f2.8 or f4 will always be able to deliver more resolution. And in this case the lens rather then camera, might be the limit when reaching 45MP (or 20MP on DX).

I just wonder if there will be much point using D850 or D500 on this lens considering image sharpness and resolution. My feeling is that using a D750 in 1.5x crop mode (10MP) might look as sharp as D500's 20MP scaled down to 10MP.
Lens resolution capability is of course the $64,000 question

We already have ~50MP full frame cameras - Canon 5DS R, Nikon D850, and now Z7, along with the Sony a7R III ...... and we know higher resolution (~70-80MP, and maybe up to 100MP or so soon after) cameras are on the way (probably for the 2020 Tokyo Olympics) from Nikon, Sony, and Canon. We don't know what Pentax have planned and whether they will continue to mix it up with the big boys, and then there's Panasonic too - I imagine they will be taking it right to Sony and won't be taking a backwards step on resolution.

~50MP corresponds roughly to an APS-C resolution of ~20-24MP, but about 4 years ago we already had the amazing 28MP Samsung NX-1. At say ~70MP FF , we will be up over 30MP APS-C .....

We already have two diffractive optics lenses to suit these hi res FF cameras - the Canon 400 f4 DO ISII , and the Nikon 300 f4 PF. I haven't heard of any resolution brick walls for these diffractive lenses on these ~ 50MP cameras, even with 1.4xTC's attached - taking them out to f5.6.

This new Nikon 500 f5.6 PF certainly is a 'focused' wee-beastie ..... it seems that it will spend all it's time in practice living in the rather narrow f5.6 - f6.3 - f7.1 - f8 aperture range of peak IQ. A rather thin margin. Given it's sharpness wide open, and the fact that it will be mostly used by birders/ distant wildlife photographers, this shouldn't be a problem. I don't know if you would ever run into depth of field limitations (IQ drop) on say oblique shots of large animals like bull elephants etc.

The manufacturers have known that higher resolution sensors have been coming for a while now .... I don't think it's so much the sensor technology, design, and manufacture that holds them back, but rather the camera's central processors, architecture, and storage medium capacities and speeds, as well as things like heat dissipation.

You would think that they have the corresponding resolution parameters of their lenses up to standard to suit and future proofed - certainly the new S series of Nikon lenses for the Z mount mirrorless cameras have been designed with that capacity, and I would bet Canon's MkIII's too. Being a 2018 released design that's not exactly in the bargain basement, you would hope that the PF range of lenses has been designed to cope with these upcoming hi res cameras too .....

Just to be on the safe(r) side though - Nikon had better get that super secret 600mm f4 PF out :)




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Old Friday 14th September 2018, 14:54   #77
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Originally Posted by opticoholic View Post
Another discussion of the Lenstip review and the somewhat unimpressive samples here:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4319424

I read this because I have the Olympus 300 f/4, which I like a lot; even with the 1.4X teleconverter I think it often matches the image quality from my much heavier Nikon 500 f/4 without any teleconverter. In-camera processing and sharpening is something to keep in mind. Olympus is pretty aggressive with sharpening, but even so I sometimes have trouble making the images from the larger Nikon lens look as good. In any case, regarding the Lenstip samples, someone in the thread above found this from the Lenstip FAQ page:
https://www.lenstip.com/126.1-articl...estions.html#5

"It is also worth noticing that all sample photos are taken with the noise reduction switched off and sharpening set on minimum or low, depending on a given camera, in order to make the comparison between them easier. As most of users don’t set the sharpening so low in their cameras our sample shots might seem weak to them."
Dave
I'm pretty sure that the folks on that thread got their wires crossed. Lenstip was actually saying that the 500 PF was comparable in IQ to the old 300 f4 REFRACTIVE design, and not the 300 f4 PF as the folks on that thread interpreted it.

I'm not surprised! Everybody knows that right here on BF is the only source of truly accurate information



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Old Friday 14th September 2018, 16:53   #78
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I tend to get way too wrapped up in getting the maximum resolution. I need to remind myself that good photography is about so much more, first and foremost (for me) simply getting out with the gear you have and enjoying the moment. As a case in point, someone just shared this image with me today, which will surely go viral. It was taken through the window glass of a commercial airliner!

https://mymodernmet.com/jon-carmicha...eclipse-photo/

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Old Friday 14th September 2018, 17:01   #79
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post

Nikon have already hit the brick wall, that's why they now have the Z-mount.

The manufacturers have known that higher resolution sensors have been coming for a while now .... I don't think it's so much the sensor technology, design, and manufacture that holds them back, but rather the camera's central processors, architecture, and storage medium capacities and speeds, as well as things like heat dissipation.

You would think that they have the corresponding resolution parameters of their lenses up to standard to suit and future proofed - certainly the new S series of Nikon lenses for the Z mount mirrorless cameras have been designed with that capacity, and I would bet Canon's MkIII's too. Being a 2018 released design that's not exactly in the bargain basement, you would hope that the PF range of lenses has been designed to cope with these upcoming hi res cameras too .....

Just to be on the safe(r) side though - Nikon had better get that super secret 600mm f4 PF out :)

Chosun
In that case they should perform as the Zeiss Otus on D3X, but they don't. They actually underperform on the D3X that is only 24MP on FF. And I really don't see how it could be any better on D850.

The 300/4 PF is not close to the 300/2.8 VR in performance.
Even the 300/4 AF-S has less aberrations stopped down a bit.
(do mouse-over on the test image, and the little arrow points left/right on the current lens):

https://www.the-digital-picture.com/...mp=0&APIComp=2

The PF-lenses is a compromise between weight/size and optical performance. If you want to go lightweight, you will pay with some image quality.

But it's not only about lens design. Manufacturing is as important. Hopefully the 500mm PF will have less initial QC issues than the 300mm PF.

Here is a test of the 300mm/4 PF on D800E (36MP), it's not what I would call a sharp lens. It's quite soft actually.

https://www.imaging-resource.com/len...r/nikon-d800e/

A lens that is razor sharp is one of Nikons later designs, the 105mm/1.4E ED, and it might be one of the sharpest they have. But note that you have to stop down to f5.6. (On Z-mount that will probably not be needed.)

https://www.imaging-resource.com/len...r/nikon-d800e/

Last edited by Vespobuteo : Friday 14th September 2018 at 17:30.
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Old Friday 14th September 2018, 17:41   #80
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Originally Posted by opticoholic View Post
I tend to get way too wrapped up in getting the maximum resolution. I need to remind myself that good photography is about so much more, first and foremost (for me) simply getting out with the gear you have and enjoying the moment. As a case in point, someone just shared this image with me today, which will surely go viral. It was taken through the window glass of a commercial airliner!

https://mymodernmet.com/jon-carmicha...eclipse-photo/

Dave
Good point!

Personally, I have no problem using older gear that some might rate as inferior or outdated. A lot of great photos were taken with a lot less than 45MP. To me dynamic range and ISO performance is a lot more important than the megapixel count when shooting wildlife.

On the other hand, if Nikon want us to pay premium for the latest and greatest? gear, they better see to that the quality and IQ correlate to the price and published MTF curves.

Last edited by Vespobuteo : Friday 14th September 2018 at 17:43.
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Old Saturday 15th September 2018, 05:28   #81
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Originally Posted by Vespobuteo View Post
In that case they should perform as the Zeiss Otus on D3X, but they don't. They actually underperform on the D3X that is only 24MP on FF. And I really don't see how it could be any better on D850.

The 300/4 PF is not close to the 300/2.8 VR in performance.
Even the 300/4 AF-S has less aberrations stopped down a bit.
(do mouse-over on the test image, and the little arrow points left/right on the current lens):

https://www.the-digital-picture.com/...mp=0&APIComp=2

The PF-lenses is a compromise between weight/size and optical performance. If you want to go lightweight, you will pay with some image quality.

But it's not only about lens design. Manufacturing is as important. Hopefully the 500mm PF will have less initial QC issues than the 300mm PF.

Here is a test of the 300mm/4 PF on D800E (36MP), it's not what I would call a sharp lens. It's quite soft actually.

https://www.imaging-resource.com/len...r/nikon-d800e/

A lens that is razor sharp is one of Nikons later designs, the 105mm/1.4E ED, and it might be one of the sharpest they have. But note that you have to stop down to f5.6. (On Z-mount that will probably not be needed.)

https://www.imaging-resource.com/len...r/nikon-d800e/
Maybe our hopes won't be fully met as much as we'd like. The 500 PF may not set records, but I wouldn't say it underperforms.

It is difficult to compare the different lenses on different sites performed on different bodies.

Looking at an available range of lenses from both Canon and Nikon on both sites - 200/f2, 300/f2.8 II, 300/F4PF, 100-400/f5.6 II, 180-400/f4, 400/f4 DO II, and Sigma 500/f4, shows that they are all within the same ballpark (several %) IQ wise as the 500PF in the range f5.6 - f8 ..... bearing in mind that we will mostly be concerned with central sharpness.

As has been pretty well reported, the Nikon 300PF may show more unit to unit variability than desirable and not be up to quite the same standards as the FL supertele's or Canon's big whites.

It also seems that Nikon may be using a simpler type of diffraction grating than Canon does on its 400 f4 DO II, so it may not merely be a diffractive vs refractive issue.

The PF's may be optimised for lower weight/size/relative cost, but I don't think they're giving up much in IQ from the best supertelephoto's, and they look to serve the purpose of raising the bar from the consumer supertelephotos.

Let's not forget that even 500mm on a FF is certainly not a luxurious excess of length when trying to photograph small birds, so I would think a D850 cropped down to APS-C levels is still a useful and desirable outcome.

Anyway, if Nikon is listening then they can lift the IQ levels of the 600 f5.6 PF - that's the one I think most of us are waiting on (it seems there will be no announcement of it at Photokina - so we might be waiting longer yet).

I'd even prefer a 600 f4 PF over that - ya got yer ears on good lil' Nikon buddy - come back ......



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Old Saturday 15th September 2018, 05:34   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opticoholic View Post
I tend to get way too wrapped up in getting the maximum resolution. I need to remind myself that good photography is about so much more, first and foremost (for me) simply getting out with the gear you have and enjoying the moment. As a case in point, someone just shared this image with me today, which will surely go viral. It was taken through the window glass of a commercial airliner!

https://mymodernmet.com/jon-carmicha...eclipse-photo/

Dave
Fantastic story!

What an awesome photograph!

Well planned and executed, and I'm sure it was worth every bit of extra effort by Southwest Airlines for the advertising kudos alone :)




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Old Saturday 15th September 2018, 07:39   #83
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Maybe our hopes won't be fully met as much as we'd like. The 500 PF may not set records, but I wouldn't say it underperforms.

It is difficult to compare the different lenses on different sites performed on different bodies.

Looking at an available range of lenses from both Canon and Nikon on both sites - 200/f2, 300/f2.8 II, 300/F4PF, 100-400/f5.6 II, 180-400/f4, 400/f4 DO II, and Sigma 500/f4, shows that they are all within the same ballpark (several %) IQ wise as the 500PF in the range f5.6 - f8 ..... bearing in mind that we will mostly be concerned with central sharpness.

As has been pretty well reported, the Nikon 300PF may show more unit to unit variability than desirable and not be up to quite the same standards as the FL supertele's or Canon's big whites.

It also seems that Nikon may be using a simpler type of diffraction grating than Canon does on its 400 f4 DO II, so it may not merely be a diffractive vs refractive issue.

The PF's may be optimised for lower weight/size/relative cost, but I don't think they're giving up much in IQ from the best supertelephoto's, and they look to serve the purpose of raising the bar from the consumer supertelephotos.

Let's not forget that even 500mm on a FF is certainly not a luxurious excess of length when trying to photograph small birds, so I would think a D850 cropped down to APS-C levels is still a useful and desirable outcome.

Anyway, if Nikon is listening then they can lift the IQ levels of the 600 f5.6 PF - that's the one I think most of us are waiting on (it seems there will be no announcement of it at Photokina - so we might be waiting longer yet).

I'd even prefer a 600 f4 PF over that - ya got yer ears on good lil' Nikon buddy - come back ......


Chosun
The Canon 400mm DO is only 1 cm shorter than the 500mm PF so Nikon might have pushed it a bit too far with the PF-element.

The QC will be crucial, I've heard stories about people getting two lemons in a row of the Nikon 200-500/5.6 zoom.

The 600mm PF I don't think we will see on the market this year.

I took a closer look on the D500 test shots at LensTip again, and the best looking file* is not that bad actually. With some very minor PP it will print in any size (at sensible DPI:s).

*The "man in the brick wall", left in last row of the D500 files.

Last edited by Vespobuteo : Saturday 15th September 2018 at 14:15.
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Old Saturday 15th September 2018, 16:38   #84
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The Canon 400mm DO is only 1 cm shorter than the 500mm PF so Nikon might have pushed it a bit too far with the PF-element.

The QC will be crucial, I've heard stories about people getting two lemons in a row of the Nikon 200-500/5.6 zoom.

The 600mm PF I don't think we will see on the market this year.

I took a closer look on the D500 test shots at LensTip again, and the best looking file* is not that bad actually. With some very minor PP it will print in any size (at sensible DPI:s).

*The "man in the brick wall", left in last row of the D500 files.
At several thousand dollars there better not be anywhere near the unit to unit variation shown by the 300PF and the 200-500. The 500PF is 'merely' an f5.6 lens, and so Nikon has priced these pretty much at pro levels and they need corresponding QA levels and IQ consistency.

I think the lenstip sample shots show more variation than any other site I have ever looked at. It seems there is quite a lot of variation in technique and methodology ..... some of the shots look so bad that they look like I could have taken them !

That DPReview thread that Dave linked has some nice BIF shots of peregrines which retain sharpness when zoomed in if you look at the Flickr source - so that inspires some confidence.

Here is a link to a schematic drawing of the Canon 400 f4 DO II's multilayer diffractive element https://www.lenstip.com/index.html?t...wu&test_ob=509

I can't seem to dig up an actual drawing of this 500PF, though the original patent drawing seemed to show just a one sided element (unless of course that was just an indicative schematic?).

With Nikon not making any announcements about the 600 at Photokina, I don't think they will have time to announce it and produce it in enough quantity to stock it in commercial quantities prior to Christmas and the Holidays sales period. So yes, unfortunately it looks like no 600 until first thing next year - grrrr ! ..... that will give them time to cash in on the sales of the 500 anyway.



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Old Sunday 16th September 2018, 04:20   #85
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The 600 PF is not even announced yet; I would not hold my breath waiting for it. Let me remind you, this is Nikon we're talking about. They still haven't announced the 300 f/2.8E FL lens... the FL versions of 400 f/2.8, 500 f/4, and 600 f/4 lenses were announced 3 years ago now... What's the hold up on the 300? But that's nothing: Remember, we waited 15 YEARS after the 300mm f/4D ED-IF lens was announced for them to finally offer a 300 f/4 with image stabilization (and now the original 300mm f/4D ED-IF is 18 years old and still in production without any upgrade...). The macro 200mm f/4D IF-ED was announced 25 YEARS AGO and still hasn't been upgraded. I've given up on that one. I'm just hoping Sigma gives us an upgrade of their macro, maybe a 200mm ART macro....

For Nikon, this new full frame mirrorless thing needs to be the top priority. All I'm hoping for in the next several months is for them to smoothly and successfully roll out what has already been announced, with good quality control and no issues, and hopefully those S lenses are a smash success and the ones on the road map for next year appear on schedule and in sufficient quantity (and maybe finally get the D850 in stock, good grief).

--Your friendly neighborhood Nikon pessimist.
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Old Sunday 16th September 2018, 05:49   #86
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The 600 PF is not even announced yet; I would not hold my breath waiting for it. Let me remind you, this is Nikon we're talking about. They still haven't announced the 300 f/2.8E FL lens... the FL versions of 400 f/2.8, 500 f/4, and 600 f/4 lenses were announced 3 years ago now... What's the hold up on the 300? But that's nothing: Remember, we waited 15 YEARS after the 300mm f/4D ED-IF lens was announced for them to finally offer a 300 f/4 with image stabilization (and now the original 300mm f/4D ED-IF is 18 years old and still in production without any upgrade...). The macro 200mm f/4D IF-ED was announced 25 YEARS AGO and still hasn't been upgraded. I've given up on that one. I'm just hoping Sigma gives us an upgrade of their macro, maybe a 200mm ART macro....

For Nikon, this new full frame mirrorless thing needs to be the top priority. All I'm hoping for in the next several months is for them to smoothly and successfully roll out what has already been announced, with good quality control and no issues, and hopefully those S lenses are a smash success and the ones on the road map for next year appear on schedule and in sufficient quantity (and maybe finally get the D850 in stock, good grief).

--Your friendly neighborhood Nikon pessimist.
Jeez! Don't go putting the kybosh on the 600 f5.6 already!

I want them to come up with a 600 f4 PF

If Canon manages to get a lighter weight MkIII version of it's already lightest in class 300 f2.8 L, then things will really start to look embarrassing for Nikon. Their 600/f4 and 400/f2.8 are now nearly a kg out of the running with Canon's recent announcements, and the new Sony 400/f2.8. Canon's (and maybe Sony's too?) 500/f4 I would expect to soon follow suit, and maybe the 300/f2.8 too.

Once Canon's new 600/f4L MkIII hits the retail market - there will be the ridiculous situation for Nikon of having someone in the market (by weight) for a circa ~3kg lens, shopping their 'old' 300 f2.8 against the Canon 600 f4 !!! If that doesn't ring alarm bells I don't know what will !

I think you are right with the call about Nikon's new Z system and stock of the D850 .... that's what I was getting at above - but didn't want to come out and say it. Obviously that's a huge engineering focus for them, and I think there is a lot of frantic work going on at the moment bedding in the AF algorithms and performance to finalize the firmware before release.

Hopefully they sort that, and the 600 PF f5.6 gets here sooner rather than later, and then they urgently attend to light weighting their other super telephotos ......




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Old Sunday 16th September 2018, 17:38   #87
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I knew I'd get a reaction from you with that last post. Maybe I was trolling a tiny bit; if so I apologize. I think you know that I agree with you that it would be great if the 600 PF lens gets announced soon and it is everything we hope. Both you and I are more interested in the possibility of the 600 rather than the 500 PF. I'm just not very optimistic that it will happen soon, and that comes out of years of being a Nikon customer. But also I'm not sure Nikon's highest priority right now is hurrying up with releasing new and upgraded telephotos. I think they have bigger problems.

Nikon has a reputation for NOT necessarily doing what customers want. Rather, they will do what THEY want, in their own good time. They will keep it a secret until the last minute, and then finally they will have a big event with lots of hype and hoopla, and tell us why THIS is what we should all want. Then they will go back into hiding. Ok "hiding" is probably too strong a word, but I use it to drive home my perception. In fairness, most of their competitors similarly over-hype their product announcements. But what irks me is that Nikon seems to willfully ignore and keep customers at a distance, when exactly the opposite is needed to achieve success. I think this is at least part of why they have had quite a number of obvious recent failures. Surely there were many other contributing factors, business culture/decisions... and luckily they did have some very successful products along the way, but overall I agree with others who have said Nikon's last decade or so might well become a famous case study in business schools of what NOT to do if you have a large successful brand and you want to maintain and expand your market share/competitive position.

So, Nikon clearly slowed down, re-organized, hopefully changed their priorities and now they are making their next big move with this full frame mirrorless bid. It's an opportunity for a fresh start. As for shifting priorities, I like some of what I've read as far as emphasizing image quality and quality control going forward.

Customers are not all the same. We might divide customers into buckets, and for Nikon the most important is probably the consumers who buy $500 D5XXX cameras with kit lenses at big box stores. I fall into the enthusiast non-professional bird/wildlife photographer bucket. I'm probably an oddball in this category, but the weight of the telephoto lens is not my biggest consideration. Rather, my top priorities are probably (1) image quality (2) build quality/durability/weather seal/quality control, and (3) price... Also very important is AF accuracy and functionality, including C-AF and tracking, but I consider that more an attribute of the camera rather than the lens. But as far as the lens goes, the weight and also image stabilization doesn't even make my top 3. Sure, making lenses lighter and smaller is great, but only if the image quality is not compromised and the price stays out of the stratosphere. I use a tripod and I'm used to hauling around my 8.5 lb. 500 f/4G... Even with my Olympus 300 f/4 + 1.4X teleconverter which weighs ~3.6 lbs, I usually use a tripod, or at least a monopod--and it has fantastic image stabilization... Furthermore, if I were to upgrade my 500mm f/4G today, looking at what is currently available, I would never choose one of the Nikon 400/500/600 FL lenses that cost $10K - $12K (that new Canon 600 is $13K by the way). Nope, the current lens I like best is the Sigma 500 which runs ~$6K and appears to match the $10K Nikon FL lens in every important way, except for weight (but it is still over 1 lb. lighter than my current 500 f/4G). I especially like the ability to fine tune and customize the AF of the Sigma. But it's hard for me to justify selling my 500 f/4G and replacing it with any F-mount lens that would require an adapter with the future mirrorless cameras... I will wait and see what a 600 PF lens might offer if it appears, but I think IF I ever upgrade my Nikon 500 f/4G, I might wait for a lens with an S-mount in 2 or 3+ years...

As for how soon Nikon will roll out the 600 PF or other upgraded F-mount super telephotos, Nikon specifically included super telephoto lenses on their list of future priorities, so that can give us some hope. The professional sports photography segment has always been important to them, despite what we might think about their lack of choices compared to Canon. I can't shake from my mind these photos from the Olympics... So I'm sure they will come out with their own new FL lenses eventually, even lighter weight but also priced even more sky high than they already are.

Ok, I'm climbing down from my soap box now. I can't believe I took time to write all that, especially when it seems this is a forum with mostly 3 participants... I'm going to try to take a long break from these threads now.

Dave

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Old Monday 17th September 2018, 12:48   #88
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Dave, no worries, I didn't take it as any more than the heartfelt sorrow of a broken man ! :) ..... the type of deep depression that can only come from being a long time disappointed Nikon lens customer!

All of that was before my time, since I came back to the hobby with the advent of the third party supertelephoto zooms .... so I've missed a lot of the experiences that forms your opinion.

Regardless, I think it's sensible to just get the most suitable outfit that meets your requirements at the time and go and enjoy photography. For me those requirements (beyond meeting a satisfactory IQ and performance level) primarily revolve around a reasonably light weight and 600mm's + APS-C reach. If any of my parameters were to move it would most likely be an increase in price for a suitable rig.

Like you I hope Nikon has a smoother release of the new mirrorless system (and F mount supertelephotos) than some of it's more recent items. I'm sure that just about every engineering resource in the company has been focused on that, since some of the early pre-release mirrorless AF tests didn't set the world alight and it looks like early pre-tests of the sensor are the same. I'm in no hurry to be a first adopter until they've proven themselves somewhat. There are rumours of a 28th Sept release date for the new Z kit - so hopefully all works out well.

I think Nikon has a huge conundrum with the DX mount specification and market space placement for the mirrorless iteration. I wouldn't mind betting that they will come out with an upgraded D500 DSLR (to be called D500S, D510, D550, D555, or whatever) as an interim breather .......

Either way, Nikon has clearly demonstrated they are on the slow track with long lenses for mirrorless. I wouldn't be holding my breath at all for any developments in the 2-3 year time frame you mentioned. Not at all.

The competitors are piling on the pressure as far as lightweight supertelephotos go. First and foremost Nikon will have to respond to that - and that will be a ... h - u - g - e ... task. There's a kilo to be peeled out of the 600 f4 FL, a kilo to be peeled out of the 400 f2.8 FL, near a kilo? to be peeled out of the 500 f4 FL, and pretty much near a kilo out of the long overdue 300 f2.8.

If Canon comes out with it's prosumer 200-600, and it's lightweight 600 f4 DO, and (when) Sony comes out with their lightweight 600 f4 that pressure will be doubled.

With the 2020 Tokyo Olympics rapidly approaching and the huge kudos available for the king of the market title, Nikon's competitors will be going hell for leather.

We know that Nikon will come out with a high speed Z9 for the games, but apart from a 70-200 f2.8 in Z mount, the big question will be what native telephotos will be available for it .....?

Best case scenario, I can see Nikon managing to keep pace with the competitions lightweight super telephotos in F mount. Which well and truly includes the 500 and 600 f5.6 PF's (not too sure what will become of the 400 ....) , and maybe, just maybe, when they lightweight and FLerize the 300 f2.8 they'll also develop a Z mount version in parallel.

I would like to see perhaps a 400 f4 PF and definitely a 600 f4 PF, and these too may be developed in both F and Z mounts in parallel.

We shall see!

First cab off the rank will be the 600 f5.6 PF and probably a successor to the D500, and of course the D6 ..... those should buy Nikon a small amount of time to get cracking on a new generation of lightweight supertelephotos, but really, it's a packed development schedule for Nikon coming up ......






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Old Wednesday 19th September 2018, 18:05   #89
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Interesting first look and field comparison with the 200-500mm. Some side-by-side sample shots as well in the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6O2gR2j9o8

Some findings:

The 500/5.6 PF is very sharp at f5.6, clearly sharper than 200-500/5.6.
Possibly some inconsistencies in VR at some "longish" shutter speeds affects image sharpness in some shots.
Auto-focus is very fast, faster than 200-500 and very close or even similar to the 600/4 VRII.

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Old Wednesday 19th September 2018, 19:17   #90
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I've not read this whole thread, so hopefully I'm not repeating too much.

I'm not sure why this whole "get the d850 in stock" thing is an issue. Just order it, wait ~3wks, then it will ship to you. They are shipping, they just are not sitting "in stock" in warehouses.

I think the nano-crystal on the 500mm f/5.6pf is one of the main differentiators from the 200-500 and 3rd party 600s. I hope mine ships soon!

My main concern with the 500mm f/5.6 is with the tc 1.4 (700mm f/7.8) -- there will be limited focus points and lack of 3d tracking. The d850 (and the d500 I think) will only use the center focus point (15 focus points, 9 selectable, 5 cross sensors), whereas an f/4 lens with TC 1.4 has much more flexibility (153 focus points, 55 selectable, 45 cross sensors). The d850 (and d500) will also disable 3d tracking for combined speed with a TC less than f/5.6. Maybe Nikon can make the 3d tracking work with the pf & tc 1.4.

This is one reason I really like the 400mm f/2.8 w/ TC-20eiii. It has 153 focus points (55 selectable) with 45 cross sensors. At 800mm f/5.6. This is the same as f/4 w/ tc1.4 (600 f/4 -> 840mm f/5.6). I know some people complain that combination on the 400 "isn't sharp" but I disagree. If you have sufficient shutter speed for the focal length and monopod or tripod, you can get fantastic shots from it.

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Old Yesterday, 08:30   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcsantacurz View Post
I've not read this whole thread, so hopefully I'm not repeating too much.

I'm not sure why this whole "get the d850 in stock" thing is an issue. Just order it, wait ~3wks, then it will ship to you. They are shipping, they just are not sitting "in stock" in warehouses.
Urban myth in the US. In Europe the D850 have been in stock for a long time. Just go to the store an pick one up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcsantacurz View Post
I think the nano-crystal on the 500mm f/5.6pf is one of the main differentiators from the 200-500 and 3rd party 600s. I hope mine ships soon!
There are a lot of differentiators. The 500mm PF is a prime, it's 3-4 times more expensive, it's a phase Fresnel lens and much lighter, it has memory recall buttons like other pro long telephoto lenses. It has better weather sealing. It's not a consumer grade lens like the 200-500mm. The expectations are therefore a lot higher.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcsantacurz View Post
My main concern with the 500mm f/5.6 is with the tc 1.4 (700mm f/7.8) -- there will be limited focus points and lack of 3d tracking. The d850 (and the d500 I think) will only use the center focus point (15 focus points, 9 selectable, 5 cross sensors), whereas an f/4 lens with TC 1.4 has much more flexibility (153 focus points, 55 selectable, 45 cross sensors). The d850 (and d500) will also disable 3d tracking for combined speed with a TC less than f/5.6. Maybe Nikon can make the 3d tracking work with the pf & tc 1.4.

This is one reason I really like the 400mm f/2.8 w/ TC-20eiii. It has 153 focus points (55 selectable) with 45 cross sensors. At 800mm f/5.6. This is the same as f/4 w/ tc1.4 (600 f/4 -> 840mm f/5.6). I know some people complain that combination on the 400 "isn't sharp" but I disagree. If you have sufficient shutter speed for the focal length and monopod or tripod, you can get fantastic shots from it.

Marc
The main point with the 500/5.6 PF is the low weight and portability vs focal length, comparing it with f2.8 lens with a weight 3 times higher might be a bit unfair. AF will most likely be sufficient even with TC1.4x for occasional use.

Subject isolation will also be quite good at [email protected] The difference in DOF between a 400/2.8 and 500/5.6 at 10 meters is 0.05 vs 0.06 cm on full-frame.

A TC always degrades the image to some extent, and it does not give the true focal length. I occasionally use TC:s but always a bit reluctantly. That nagging feeling of loosing some sharpness and contrast is the reason. Also the bokeh will not be as good as a prime with equivalent focal length.

I think the latest Nikon FL telephoto lenses work pretty good with TC:s though, but previous versions were not quite as good. So it might be the reason there are differing opinions. Also the demands on image quality varies. Some might be happy with the quality even with a 2x TC.

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