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Fuji 6900 (1 Viewer)

wookie7062

Well-known member
Anyone any ideas on this camera for digiscoping. I have a good DSLR setup but am thinking of buying a scope for extra reach. I may use the scope with my slr but would prefer it if I could use it as a long range set up. The part I ger confused about is the minimum focusing. The fuji can focus down to 10cm but all the adaptors I have seen seem to almost sit flush with the scopes eyepiece. Is this something to do with the dual focus ie scope and camera. Hope this makes sense. In normal use the fuji is a decent camera with 3million pixels and decent detail. The only thing that will compromise it are the focusing speed and shutter lag(ok if the subject is still). This is assuming it will work for digiscoping.

Thanks in advance for any help
Simon
 
The 10cm focusing of a Fuji camera is how close you can focus down to. I.E. how close to a flower or insect, taking a normal picture. This is macro photography.

With digiscoping, you would normally set a camera to infinity (and on Nikons some do use the macro mode, I am not sure why, but it works!) Then you would use the scope to focus on the object you want to photograph. The scope becomes a massive lens! The camera going as close as possible to the eyepiece itself so it sees through it. Move the camera away from the eyepiece and you will get vignetting. Have the camera zoom set too low and you will also get vignetting. You set the camera's zoom so that you get a good clear view on the screen of what it sees through the telescope lens, then focus the telescope itself to get it right.....

The problem with the Fuji 6900, (I am a 602 owner), is that for one it cannot focus on infinity (at least not without a great deal of fiddling about), and it has a very wide lens which moves out from the body. Finding an adaptor which will accept a camera lens that big is difficult. (I never found one. I have used a Zeiss adaptor with some success but still not perfect!) And because the lens moves out you have to be so careful not to obstruct it otherwise its goodnight camera!

Ideally for digiscoping you need a camera which has a narrow diameter lens, and which does not move out from the body. The Nikon 4500 or 990 range is the industry standard at the moment for this reason. You can also twist the viewer to make it easier to see. Other cheaper cameras may also be suitable.

The fuji camera is a brilliant camera and will do anything you need, except possibly digiscope....... Sorry!! Maybe someone will come along now and tell us how easily they managed it. I will be interested to hear all about it if so...........
 
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Thanks Mick. I had feared that. I just ordered the Nikon ED78 scope today and will see how it goes with that. maybe I will have to consider the Nikon cameras at a later date.
 
Wookie,you can pick up used Nikon 4500,990,and 995's quite cheaply.Look through all the camera mags,or advertise on the Forum,I guess someone may have one you can buy quite cheaply,then as you already have your scope all you need is an adapter.
 
I have the S602 - basically it's a no-no for digiscoping. The best you can do is hand hold it and zoom in a lot to get rid of vignetting. It's worth buying a Nikon CP4500 (which I have with great success) if you wish to pursue this hobby, but there must be other cameras that will provide workable solutions.

As Mick says, though - the front element of the camera needs to be fixed and small; also the zoom / focusing mechanism makes a deal of difference. Try before you buy by hand-holding the camera up to the eyepiece.
 
Simon,

Did you have any luck digiscoping with your 6900, I too have the same camera and am looking at the possibility of digiscoping. Did you look into getting a tele converter for the camera?

Niall
 
The 6900 is almost the same as the S602, if i remember, so digiscoping will prove a disappointment as the front lens element is too large and moves when the camera is switched on.
 
scampo said:
The 6900 is almost the same as the S602, if i remember, so digiscoping will prove a disappointment as the front lens element is too large and moves when the camera is switched on.

It may very well be true that the S602 is disappointment for digiscoping, but it is not because it has a large diameter lens that moves.

The main reason that some cameras are poor digiscoping performers is that their entrance pupils are set back further and or move back further when the lens is zoomed. Look into the front of the S602 (or any camera) and locate the iris/shutter mechanism. Now zoom the camera. If the iris/shutter seem to get sucked way back, the camera will almost surely have problems digiscoping since the entrance pupil is usually located near the iris/shutter mechanism. If possible, do the same with a CP99x/4500 so you have some sense of reference. You will note that on the CP99x/4500, the iris moves back and forth. Its movement is fairly limited and it stays more forward as compared to many other cameras.

If you look down the front of the CP99x/4500, you may also observe that the camera's front lens element also moves. You can get the same effective result with many other external lens cameras by using a simple adapter tube. The tube effectively makes the lens "internal". The real issue isn't internal or external, but is whether the camera has or can be equipped with a robust filter mount that the camera lens can freely move behind. My externally zooming CP5000 works pretty well for digiscoping.

The size of the front element is also not the issue. People are finding it quite possible to digiscope with DSLRs, and they have very large front elements. I've demonstrated this myself with a regular SLR and its 50mm lens which is very large.

The lens size and external movement are probably wrongly attributed as the problems for a couple reasons. The Coolpix 99x/4500 series are the most successful digiscoping cameras and they have a small and internally moving lens. Many others that do not work have do, in fact, have large diameter lenses that move exernally. But what is missed is that the large diameter lenses are usually the result of faster lenses or zooms with greater range. The zooms with greater range are usually external zooms and they usually have elements that "telescope" out quite fare. These designs are more likely to require that the lens entrance pupil moves through a greater distance or that the entrance pupil be more deeply placed.

So compact lenses of modest zoom ratio (3-4x) are more likely to have digiscoping friendly designs because its is more likely the entrance pupils on such lenses will not have to move as far or be as deeply located.

A good case that shows how lens size and configuration is an unreliable predictor is the differences between the CP5000 and the CP5400. The CP5400 came with a completely new 4x (vs. 3x on the CP5000) lens design. Both cameras have similar sized front elements and both zoom externally. But the CP5000 is a good digiscoping camera (hampered a bit by its widish zoom) while the CP5400 (which has a more digiscoping friendly zoom range) does not work well with typical birding eyepieces. A glance down the lens while zooming shows that the iris/shutter just keeps falling deep into the camera as the lens is zoomed.

We usually refer to a "good" camera as one that works with typical eyepieces that have around 20mm of eye relief. If the scope can be equipped with an eyepiece having enough eye relief to compensate for the camera's deep entrance pupil, "bad" digiscoping cameras can perform similarly to "good" ones.

Kowa has recently released a number of eyepieces that have extra long eye reliefs including one that has 57mm of eye relief designed specifically for digiscoping and/or videoscoping. There is also the quite popular Scopetronix Maxview 40 that gives around 32mm of eye relief. Depending on which scope you have, there is an outside chance that your S602 can work well if a special eyepiece with vey long eye relief is used.
 
Thanks for the reply,

I think I understand what you are saying and as I do not currently have a scope it looks like I need to take into account the eyepieces that are available. So I would need to find an eyepiece that has an eye relief greater than the standard 20mm. I assume the 20mm is reering to the diameter of the lens that you look through.

Would the Scopetronix Maxview 40 eyepiece fit any scope?
Also when a scope gives its magnification, I assume that the eyepiece has an effect on the overall magnification.
 
Thanks, Jay. I was merely repeating what others have said, linked to the fact that the S602 is undoubtedly poor for digiscoping owing to the massive amount of vignetting.

Now that I have the Zeiss,shall give it another go!
 
I've used my s602 with my zeiss adaptor, and it does work. But its far from perfect, and with the protruding lens it would be easy to cock up and impede its path! I know from reading the Fuji users site, that this will almost certainly cause imediate death to the camera, and is not a guarentee repair!

I don't want to decry anything Jay has said. I am sure what he writes is true. But I am certain that because the lens diameter is so big, it has to let light in at the side of the eyepiece. Surely this cannot be a good thing??? Even if the eyepiece diameter is such that the edge of the camera lens is covered, the actual eyepiece glass is much less. Surely this must make vignetting a major factor.
 
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njay said:
I assume the 20mm is reering to the diameter of the lens that you look through.

No. Eye relief is the distance from the eyepiece's eye lens to the optimal place where your eye should be placed to see the full scope/eyepiece FOV.

njay said:
Would the Scopetronix Maxview 40 eyepiece fit any scope?
Also when a scope gives its magnification, I assume that the eyepiece has an effect on the overall magnification.

They have a 1.25" and a 2" barrel. Many scopes offer adapters so that standard 1.25" barrel eyepieces can be used. You'll have to look on a scope by scope basis. I think Scopetronix also offers different variations on their eyepieces that are specific to certain scopes. Best to check their website for that.

Magnification is determined by dividing the scope's focal length by the eyepiece's focal length. So a 450mm scope with a 40mm Maxview would yield an 11.25x magnification. this is pretty low, but can work out to be quite a bit of magnification when used at long camera zooms.
 
mickporter said:
I've used my s602 with my zeiss adaptor, and it does work. But its far from perfect, and with the protruding lens it would be easy to cock up and impede its path! I know from reading the Fuji users site, that this will almost certainly cause imediate death to the camera, and is not a guarentee repair!.

I would avoid any adapter that would let the camera lens zoom into contact with any objstruction. The adapters made by the manufacturer should not allow this. A third party or homemade adapter should be double checked to make sure it doesn't allow this type of obstruction.

mickporter said:
I don't want to decry anything Jay has said. I am sure what he writes is true.

Decry away. I've done a lot of testing, a fair bit or reading and listened to a number of reports on rigs from individuals. I'm pretty darned sure I'm right on this, but there is always the possiblility there is something I've failed to consider.

mickporter said:
But I am certain that because the lens diameter is so big, it has to let light in at the side of the eyepiece. Surely this cannot be a good thing??? Even if the eyepiece diameter is such that the edge of the camera lens is covered, the actual eyepiece glass is much less. Surely this must make vignetting a major factor.

This is why I waded into this after the notion of lens diameter was mentioned for the second time. I know that this notion is quite innocently passed on and intuitively seems to be correct. But its really not true. From an alternative intuitive standpoint, consider that the exit pupil on an 80mm scope at 60x is only 1.33mm in diameter. This is much smaller than the camera lens on a CP4500, but any CP4500 user will tell you that they can get an unvignetted image at 60x.

If you want another intuitive approach, consider that stopping down a camera lens occludes significant amounts of the various optical surfaces of a lens. They are literally blocked from view - but the FOV doesn't change. In fact, evenness of illumination is sometimes somewhat improved.

You can read more here:
http://www.jayandwanda.com/digiscope/vignette/vignetting.html

If you want a solid example, take a look at this photo that shows a small diameter eyepiece that will provide a nearly unvignetted image to a very large diameter SLR lens.

http://www.jayandwanda.com/digiscope/vignette/bignsmall.jpg

With the the addition of a 2x extender to the 50mm lens, the view is completely unvignetted because the lens now has a narrower FOV. But the lens diameter, of course, remains unchanged.

BTW, I've never used the Fuji s602 camera. Am I right about the iris/shutter seeming to drop deeply behind the front lens element?
 
BTW, I've never used the Fuji s602 camera. Am I right about the iris/shutter seeming to drop deeply behind the front lens element?
I'm not sure what u mean Jay. The 602 is a very deep camera, similar in design to an SLR. On switching on the camera the lens assembly slides out from the body to about 45mm. The iris obviously operates within the body behind this.

Just going back to the adaptor and the danger of impeding the lenses. There is no problem once the lense has been extended. Once the zeiss adaptor is adjusted in this position you will not need to alter it again. It locks in that position and unless you change cameras doesn't need further adjustment.

Its the danger of forgeting this and having the camera close upto the eyepiece and then switching on the camera where the dangers lay. There are adaptors available for the 602 made my Fuji and now other manufacturers which cover the front lenses, and protect them. I keep one permenantly on my camera, with a skylight filter to protect the front end. This is a very sensible option. I don't know if these adaptors fit the 6900.
 
mickporter said:
I'm not sure what u mean Jay. The 602 is a very deep camera, similar in design to an SLR. On switching on the camera the lens assembly slides out from the body to about 45mm. The iris obviously operates within the body behind this.

The entrance pupil is described as, "... the image of the aperture stop of the lens as seen from the front of the lens."

So we aren't concerned so much about where the aperture is physically located as we are about where it appears to be located. On my CP5000, the iris/shutter (which we are assuming is approximately where the entrance pupil is located) seems to move quite a bit forward during some portions of the lens' movement. It seems to be well forward of the camera body - though i have no real idea if it is or isn't that far forward. If I look at a very similar camera, the CP5400, the iris/shutter seems to fall very deep within the body as the lens is zoomed out. The difference is remarkable even though the range of the lens barrel movement isn't that much different. The iris/shutter of the CP5000 seems to move perhaps a centimeter over the lens' entire zoom range. The iris/shutter of the CP5400 seems to move many centimeters - and in a direction that is very distinctly toward the back of the camera. The difference in behaviour is obvious when seen. The iris/shutter seems to be sucked to the back of the camera.

What we are seeing is a good indication that the entrance pupil is very far back from the front lens element. This is why the camera has problems seeing the entire FOV from the eyepiece. The entrance pupil is very far away from the scope's exit pupil. Move your own eye back away from a scope's eyepiece and you will see precisely the same effect. The vignetting isn't the diameter of the front lens element. It is due to the location of the camera lens entrance pupil.

mickporter said:
Just going back to the adaptor and the danger of impeding the lenses. There is no problem once the lense has been extended.

Then is sounds like your are safe then. You just don't want the lens barrel encountering any physical interference to its motion. I've heard of some cameras behaving badly when this happens.
 
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